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ISRAEL - IRAN - SYRIA - HAMAS - HEZBOLLAH - WWWIII?

 
 
old europe
 
  1  
Reply Thu 5 Apr, 2007 09:48 am
Avatar ADV wrote:
Right, because we know there's soooo much tension between Israel and Christendom. ;p


There has been for 2000 years. But let's not mention it.
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Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Thu 5 Apr, 2007 09:50 am
And OE is pointedly avoiding the direct questions I asked him, too. Smile
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georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Thu 5 Apr, 2007 09:51 am
Just as you are pointedly ignoring the heart-of-the-matter response to your last post.
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Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Thu 5 Apr, 2007 09:52 am
Avatar ADV wrote:
Right, because we know there's soooo much tension between Israel and Christendom. ;p

Be honest - Jerusalem is not the holy city of Islam; most of its value to the religion comes from religious sites that are, not to put too fine a point on it, Jewish religious sites. Islam's a successor religion, after all.
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Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Thu 5 Apr, 2007 09:57 am
georgeob1 wrote:
Just as you are pointedly ignoring the heart-of-the-matter response to your last post.


I didn't intend to. We have a difference of opinion on whether it's oppression to discriminate against people who are systematically lobbing rockets into residential neighborhoods, blowing up crowded markets, fire bombing busloads of school childrenetc and who refuse to acknowledge your right to exist. I say it is more self defense than discrimination just as locking up somebody who commits and/or aids and abets violent crime here is considered law enforcement instead of violation of civil rights.

Until Israel's critics are willing to factor that into the debate, I still say the Israeli apologists have the better argument.
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old europe
 
  1  
Reply Thu 5 Apr, 2007 10:01 am
Foxfyre wrote:
We have a difference of opinion on whether it's oppression to discriminate against people who are systematically lobbing rockets into residential neighborhoods, blowing up crowded markets, fire bombing busloads of school childrenetc and who refuse to acknowledge your right to exist.


Foxfyre, is it your argument that all Palestinians are "lobbing rockets into residential neighborhoods, blowing up crowded markets, fire bombing busloads of school children"?

Because Israel discriminates against millions of Palestinians. I wonder if they all fall into that category.
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Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Thu 5 Apr, 2007 10:30 am
old europe wrote:
Foxfyre wrote:
We have a difference of opinion on whether it's oppression to discriminate against people who are systematically lobbing rockets into residential neighborhoods, blowing up crowded markets, fire bombing busloads of school childrenetc and who refuse to acknowledge your right to exist.


Foxfyre, is it your argument that all Palestinians are "lobbing rockets into residential neighborhoods, blowing up crowded markets, fire bombing busloads of school children"?

Because Israel discriminates against millions of Palestinians. I wonder if they all fall into that category.


No, but the Palestinians who are being discriminated against look to Hamas and not Televiv as the place from which they take their orders and also where they place their loyalties. They are not coming forward to point out the criminals nor are they pledging their loyalty as Israeli citizens. Therefore, being unable to identify who is and who is not the bad guys, the Israelis take precautions against all rather than have their citizens murdered by terrorists. The ramifications are more serious and long reaching, of course, but the principle is not much different than a school lockdown during a perceived threat or the police sealing off a large building with everybody in it rather than allow a criminal to escape.

Okay, I've answered your question as best as I can.

Now will you answer those directed to you?

In case you've forgotten here they are again:
Quote:
Do you object to Israel's right to exist? Why is a Jewish majority objectionable to you if it is? Would you be in favor of Germans becoming the minority in Germany if those moving in were on the record as favoring Germany ceasing to exist and/or the obliteration or deportation of Germans?
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ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Thu 5 Apr, 2007 04:49 pm
old europe wrote:
ican711nm wrote:
OK! LET'S TALK MODERN LEGAL

1947: UN resolution partitions Palestine into a Jewish State and into an Arab State.

There currently exists that Jewish state. That Arab state doesn't quite exist yet. Maybe, if the Arabs diverted their attention from trying to end that Jewish state, and focused it on building themselves that Arab state, there would be an Arab state.


Are we talking about the borders of the Jewish state and the Arab state from the 1947 partition plan, too?
...
Or are you only talking about the 1947 plan to create two states, but insist on the borders of Israel+occupied territories as they are today?
...

Talking about either would be fine with me. My point is valid whichever you choose to discuss. After all, right or wrong, the current map has been caused to exist ever since 1948 by Israeli reactions to the Arabs focusing their attention on trying to end that Jewish state rather than building themselves that Arab state. Had the Arabs in 1947 instead focused on building that Arab state, they would have probably been enjoying that Arab state with its then greater land area for more than 50 years.
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blueflame1
 
  1  
Reply Fri 6 Apr, 2007 06:11 pm
US Aiding Al Qaeda Affiliated Group In Iran?
http://infowars.net/articles/april2007/060407Anti-Iranian.htm
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Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Reply Fri 6 Apr, 2007 09:27 pm
Many of Israel's critics wish to dismiss the acute threat of violence Israelis face on a daily basis, as either a rather inconsequential fact of life, or as deserved retribution from the people they are said to oppress.

Clearly their continued and constant peril is going to influence their decisions on how to order their society as respects Jews and non-Jews.

It strikes me that one's position on Israel can, largely, boil down to the answer to the following question

Does Israel as a nation have a right to exist?

If your answer to this question is "no," well then it really doesn't matter how they treat non-jews, jews or penguins for that matter.

If your answer is "yes" then I think it is debateable as to whether or not the manner in which Israel treats non-jews is essential to its continued existence. Given the constant existential peril Israel has faced and continues to face, I'm not sure it's quite as crystal clear, as some would suggest, that discontinuing any discriminatory practices against Palestinians will enhance its prospects. I suppose it's quite tempting to suggest that a nation that discriminates to preserve its existence doesn't deserve that existence, but then we would have to argue that quite a large number of nations on earth (and virtually all in the Middle East) who engage in discriminatory practices, and arguably for far less essential reasons, don't deserve to exist either.

Do we then nullify all of the nations in the region and sit back and see what rises from the ashes? Want to bet it would be Israel?

It is interesting what behavior we will tolerate in our enemies in the name of peace, as opposed to what we will accept in our allies.
0 Replies
 
revel
 
  1  
Reply Sat 7 Apr, 2007 07:25 am
Israel exist, it is going to continue to exist regardless of anyone wishing it didn't exist. I think most reasonable Arabs/Muslims in the Middle East probably accept that if they don't say it out loud. (The key word there is reasonable, Iran's president seems to me to a little off his rocker and he does not really even rule Iran) If the Palestinians didn't accept Israel they wouldn't try to argue for their rights, such as the right to return and all the rest. I honestly don't believe that most reasonable Arabs are just itching to get nukes to wipe Israel and the US off the face of the map as the over used saying goes. But rather just even the playing field.

Palestinians have been subjected under Israel in horrible conditions since the beginning, so of course they are going to fight back with poor under funded methods such as car bombings and suicide bombings. They don't have the smart weapons Israel does to be able to do real damage and wipe out whole streets and demolish whole scale towns to make room for more settlers.

Furthermore, there is twice as many innocent Palestinians killed by Israelis than there are innocent Israelis killed by Palestinians. (collatoral damage no excuse when it is so much) It is getting harder and harder to pass off Israel as the poor underdog with any credibility with all their aggressive and discriminatory acts towards Palestinians.
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ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Sat 7 Apr, 2007 07:58 am
revel wrote:
Israel exist, it is going to continue to exist regardless of anyone wishing it didn't exist. I think most reasonable Arabs/Muslims in the Middle East probably accept that if they don't say it out loud. ...

Those Arabs/Muslims in the Middle East that accept that Israel exists and will continue to exist, but do not say it out loud, are not being reasonable, if they expect Israel to tell the difference between them and those Arabs/Muslims in the Middle East that do not accept that Israel exists and do not accept that Israel will continue to exist.
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Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Sat 7 Apr, 2007 08:36 am
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revel
 
  1  
Reply Sat 7 Apr, 2007 09:27 am
In other words you expect Palestinians to grovel and loose face by admitting those things before any progress can be made, typical.
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ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Sat 7 Apr, 2007 09:30 am
ican's answers
Foxfyre wrote:

...
(... Otherwise nobody seems to wish to go on the record here.)

1) Do you accept that Israel has a right to exist? YES

2) Do you accept that Israel has a right to maintain a Jewish majority in Israel? YES If not, why not?

3) Do you favor inviting folks to move into your neighborhood who support groups who have aided, and abetted or committed robberies, muggings, rapes, murders, bombings, arson, etc. etc. etc. on the theory that they all will surely now be peaceful neighbors because you're being nice to them? NO

4) Would you favor becoming a minority in your town, county, state, or country if those moving in were on the record as intending that your town, county, state, or country (and laws/protections) would no longer exist and/or you and all other non-newbies would be killed or deported? NO
...

Just for the record! Smile
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ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Sat 7 Apr, 2007 09:41 am
revel wrote:
In other words you expect Palestinians to grovel and loose face by admitting those things before any progress can be made, typical.

Lose face Exclamation Question Rolling Eyes They've lost that long ago! It's time now they start to understand why and learn how to find it again.

I expect the Palestinian Arabs to grow up and accept responsibility for the situation in which they find themselves. I expect them to do this by focusing their attention on building up an Arab state in their current territory rather than on tearing down the Jewish state.
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Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Sat 7 Apr, 2007 09:51 am
ican711nm wrote:
ican's answers
Foxfyre wrote:

...
(... Otherwise nobody seems to wish to go on the record here.)

1) Do you accept that Israel has a right to exist? YES

2) Do you accept that Israel has a right to maintain a Jewish majority in Israel? YES If not, why not?

3) Do you favor inviting folks to move into your neighborhood who support groups who have aided, and abetted or committed robberies, muggings, rapes, murders, bombings, arson, etc. etc. etc. on the theory that they all will surely now be peaceful neighbors because you're being nice to them? NO

4) Would you favor becoming a minority in your town, county, state, or country if those moving in were on the record as intending that your town, county, state, or country (and laws/protections) would no longer exist and/or you and all other non-newbies would be killed or deported? NO
...

Just for the record! Smile


And thank you, Ican. Very Happy

The whole thing becomes not simpler, but it becomes a whole lot clearer when one is willing to actually state their position on these issues. It also focuses the debate where the debate needs to be.
0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Sat 7 Apr, 2007 10:59 am
Finn dAbuzz wrote:
Many of Israel's critics wish to dismiss the acute threat of violence Israelis face on a daily basis, as either a rather inconsequential fact of life, or as deserved retribution from the people they are said to oppress.

Clearly their continued and constant peril is going to influence their decisions on how to order their society as respects Jews and non-Jews.

It strikes me that one's position on Israel can, largely, boil down to the answer to the following question

Does Israel as a nation have a right to exist?

If your answer to this question is "no," well then it really doesn't matter how they treat non-jews, jews or penguins for that matter.

If your answer is "yes" then I think it is debateable as to whether or not the manner in which Israel treats non-jews is essential to its continued existence. Given the constant existential peril Israel has faced and continues to face, I'm not sure it's quite as crystal clear, as some would suggest, that discontinuing any discriminatory practices against Palestinians will enhance its prospects. I suppose it's quite tempting to suggest that a nation that discriminates to preserve its existence doesn't deserve that existence, but then we would have to argue that quite a large number of nations on earth (and virtually all in the Middle East) who engage in discriminatory practices, and arguably for far less essential reasons, don't deserve to exist either.

Do we then nullify all of the nations in the region and sit back and see what rises from the ashes? Want to bet it would be Israel?

It is interesting what behavior we will tolerate in our enemies in the name of peace, as opposed to what we will accept in our allies.


A cogently stated argument, but one that involves more than a little sophistry.

The question , "Does Israel as a nation have a right to exist?" is loaded with unstated associations that are critical to a meaningful answer. This alone is the key source of the fallacies in the argument that follows.

Moreover the question, so stated, bypasses the fundamental existential fact -- Israel, the nation, does indeed exist. Significantly this nation defines itself as a Jewish state, with special immutable provisions for the preservation of its essential Jewish character and special rights for Jews everywhere for residence and citizenship -- rights that are explicitly and forcefully denied to their immediate neighbors, the present and former residents of its territory, and those of additional adjacent lands it covets and controls through military occupation. Israel also defines itself as a modern democracy. However this self-definition is fundamentally incompatible with the even more central Zionist character of the state. Israel is first and foremost a Zionist, racist theocracy. It is modern and democratic only within those strictures -- in effect, modern and democratic to Jews and to a passive, submissive non Jewish minority - as long as it remains passive, submissive and small.

In these attributes Israel is no worse than any of the surrounding, predominantly Moslem states. Indeed, within its well-defined limits of intolerance, it is superior to most in many aspects of is operation. However in its fundamental character it in not materially different from them.

Many Americans have for a long time (centuries) identified their own historical struggle to create a new civilization and political order in the New World with the Biblical struggles of the Jews to create Israel - and even to eventually recreate it in the modern world. This goes back to the images of the founding colonists, in the Massachusetts colony, and to a large degree it persists today. However, this association ignores a fundamental element in our development of a successful political system and culture, namely a tolerant and non-sectarian society promising freedom and equal treatment for all. William Bradford the Massachusetts colony governor, who wrote of the "shining city on a hill" they were creating in American, in fact headed a colonial government that tolerated neither atheist, Jew, Catholic nor other variety of Protestant. - A fact that directly led to the creation of the breakaway colony of Rhode Island by Roger Smith and others. It was only later during our revolution and the following two centuries of our development that we refined and (however imperfectly) widely applied the principles of equality, freedom and democracy.

Israel has yet to face and deal with these issues. While it may, in many ways, be like the Massachusetts colony it, is fundamentally unlike the United States of America. It represents a primitive and even regressive (for many of its citizens) stage of political development, hardly different, except for its relatively greater economic efficiency, from that of its Middle Eastern neighbors. We have no transcendent right, need, or obligation to prefer its interests to those of its neighbors.

It has been argued that, despite this fundamental difference, Israel is a vital strategic ally that promises benefits to this country as we try to navigate our way to safety and security through the hazards of a still competitive and dangerous world. This notion, however, does not pass the test of even cursory critical analysis. Israel, at best offers us some assistance in dealing with a few of the serious problems we have only as a direct result of our security guarantees for her.

Finally, we can note the very strong likelihood that the security guarantee we have provided Israel over the past decades has indirectly suppressed the most progressive elements in Israeli society which otherwise might have evolved a tolerable accommodation with her neighbors and the development of a state offering freedom and near equality for all of its inhabitants. We have, perhaps without intending it, provided a security blanket for the worst elements in Israeli policy and thereby undermined the best interests of all of its people.
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BumbleBeeBoogie
 
  1  
Reply Sat 7 Apr, 2007 11:07 am
georgeob1
georgeob1 APPLAUSE! for speaking the truth. The "Israel can do no wrong" gang will now begin attacking you as anti-semitic as they have done to me for saying that Israel has been the military bully with U.S. support.

BBB
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Sat 7 Apr, 2007 11:17 am
GerogeOb1 writes
Quote:
In these attributes Israel is no worse than any of the surrounding, predominantly Moslem states. Indeed, within its well-defined limits of intolerance, it is superior to most in many aspects of is operation. However in its fundamental character it in not materially different from them.


The one undeniable difference between Israel and most of the others is that Israel is not on the record as denying the others the right to exist. Israel has not pledged the extermination or removal from the area of any others.

I know you and I disagree on this and I know we have discussed this particular issue before. But don't you think this is a really important detail that has to be acknowledged and addressed?
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