ISRAEL - IRAN - SYRIA - HAMAS - HEZBOLLAH - WWWIII?

Walter Hinteler wrote:

Foxfyre wrote:
There is no history of Israel attacking anybody without credible provocation such as imminent threat of attack or actual attacks.

You're saying you support the Israelian attacks on German UN-boats and on the French peacekeepers (at least the latter were "only two seconds away" from firing back at the Israleian air force - the Germans only filmed it.)

I'm unfamiliar with these incidents. Perhaps you could supply links from a source that is not blatantly anti-Israel?

(But I have not nor have I ever said that I support unprovoked attacks by anybody on anybody.)

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Foxfyre wrote:

I'm unfamiliar with these incidents. Perhaps you could supply links from a source that is not blatantly anti-Israel?

Israelian government for instance? Isaraelian newspapers. Agencies. TV-videos. Newspapers. A2K-thread.

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Walter Hinteler wrote:

Foxfyre wrote:
I'm unfamiliar with these incidents. Perhaps you could supply links from a source that is not blatantly anti-Israel?

Israelian government for instance? Isaraelian newspapers. Agencies. TV-videos. Newspapers. A2K-thread.

Links? Again please provide those from sources that are not blatantly anti-Israel.

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Foxfyre wrote:

Walter Hinteler wrote:
Foxfyre wrote:
There is no history of Israel attacking anybody without credible provocation such as imminent threat of attack or actual attacks.

You're saying you support the Israelian attacks on German UN-boats and on the French peacekeepers (at least the latter were "only two seconds away" from firing back at the Israleian air force - the Germans only filmed it.)

I'm unfamiliar with these incidents. Perhaps you could supply links from a source that is not blatantly anti-Israel?

(But I have not nor have I ever said that I support unprovoked attacks by anybody on anybody.)

Walter has started a pretty good thread on the incident here. Israel first denied the incident, then described it as something completely different and finally, when it became clear that the surveillance ship had everything on video, admitted that the incident had taken place as reported.

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So was it an intentional attack or just one of those stupid error in judgment things? Is it something Israel routinely does? Or an isolated incident?

When it comes to UN resolutions we are generally not talking about stupid mistakes or isolated incidents. We are talking about intentional policy and deliberate acts.

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Foxfyre wrote:

So was it an intentional attack or just one of those stupid error in judgment things?

I don't know. It certainly has the smell of being intentional. The surveillance ship in question was not with the German UN fleet, was not flying the UN flag, was unarmed, it was 50 nautical miles off the coast in international waters, and there's absolutely no reason to belief that it was mistaken for a helicopter carrier or whatever it was the IDF said later.

In my opinion, it was probably the misguided idea of someone to demonstrate the capability of the Israeli Air Force - showing strength by firing a couple of shots and flares while flying low-level over the ship.

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Quote:

PARIS, Nov 9 (Reuters) - French peacekeeping troops in Lebanon recently came within two seconds of firing missiles at Israeli fighter jets that approached as if to attack them, French Defence Minister Michele Alliot-Marie said.

Speaking to the lower house of parliament on Wednesday night, she said this was the latest in a string of incidents in which Israeli warplanes had "adopted a hostile attitude" to French and German forces and said it was "not tolerable".

"A catastrophe was narrowly avoided by our troops," Alliot-Marie said, according to a transcript of her comments. She did not say exactly when or where the events took place.

Israeli F-15s descended rapidly and then rose quickly as if they were dropping bombs or firing at the French ground forces, which are part of U.N. peacekeeping force UNIFIL, she said.

"In legitimate defence, our soldiers removed the covers from the missile battery and were two seconds away from firing at the planes that were threatening them," she said.
... ... ...

Source

I'm rather sure, Foxfyre will shrug this off as being anti-Israelian biased.

I only remind that it took days from a strictly "we never did or do so! to "we are awfully sorry" by the Israelian government re the German ships .... and that only, before Germany nearly showed the video.

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Some here remember the Israeli attack on the USS Liberty a few decades ago. Liberty was an intelligence gathering ship of the U.S. Navy. Israel also denied that their attack on this ship, which involved the killing of 25 or so U.S. sailors' was anything but a case of mistaken identity. I havent met anyone with even a modicum of knowledge of the event and operations of this type who doesn't believe that the Israeli action was knowing and deliberate.

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Yeap - that similarity was feared among the officers on the German ship.

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georgeob1 wrote:

Some here remember the Israeli attack on the USS Liberty a few decades ago. Liberty was an intelligence gathering ship of the U.S. Navy. Israel also denied that their attack on this ship, which involved the killing of 25 or so U.S. sailors' was anything but a case of mistaken identity. I havent met anyone with even a modicum of knowledge of the event and operations of this type who doesn't believe that the Israeli action was knowing and deliberate.

Watched an hour-long video on this just a week or two ago. Amazing that anyone could maintain that this was anything other than an attack upon an American ship; yet we did nothing...

It is one of the reasons that I'm not a fan of Israel

Cycloptichorn

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georgeob1 wrote:

Some here remember the Israeli attack on the USS Liberty a few decades ago. Liberty was an intelligence gathering ship of the U.S. Navy. Israel also denied that their attack on this ship, which involved the killing of 25 or so U.S. sailors' was anything but a case of mistaken identity. I havent met anyone with even a modicum of knowledge of the event and operations of this type who doesn't believe that the Israeli action was knowing and deliberate.

But what could possibly be Israel's motive for doing this? I admit I don't know any of the details but do remember the event which initially was reported as an 'accident'.

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To cover up their illegal attack on Golan Heights

Or, some other reason we don't know.

Cycloptichorn

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Didn't it happen during the 6-day war, however?

Since this came up this morning, I've read a lot of the sites claiming Israel knowingly attacked the USS Liberty and that there was a massive coverup by the Johnson administration.

Here is what the ADL says about it:
http://www.adl.org/Israel/uss.asp

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Nothing like an impartial source

Cycloptichorn

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So far nobody has given me any impartial sources as requested. Nor did I find any on the first hits I got doing my own search.

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Sorry, Foxfyre, but did the elections hurt you so much?

Btw: Among those who never believed Israel's explanation were Secretary of State, Dean Rusk and Chief of Naval Operations (and later Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff) Admiral Thomas Moorer.

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Foxfyre wrote:

But what could possibly be Israel's motive for doing this? I admit I don't know any of the details but do remember the event which initially was reported as an 'accident'.

Liberty had intercepted Israeli communications to/from their front commanders during the 1967 Six Day War.

Though Egyptian President Nasser had foolishly provided a causus belli by expelling UN inspectors from the Siani and by closing the Gulf of Aquaba to Israeli ships, the fact is that Israel initiated the hostilities in a premeditated, well-planned and coordinated attack on Egypt, Jordan, and Syria. The U.S. was very concerned about the aftermath, and limiting excesses the Israelis might commit after their stunning initial successes. Cyclo is likely correct about the concerns for an Israeli attack on Damascus, launched from their new conquests on and beyond the Golan Heights..

This was not the only time that Israel violated the expressed wishes of U.S. govrernments, counting on domestic political action to subsequently resolve the matter. This is what indeed occurred after the Liberty matter. The Navy & CIA Boards of Inquiry concluded that the attack on Liberty was knowing and deliberate.

For some years afterwards there was pervasive antipathy for Israel in our Navy. It wasn't until 1977 that a US Navy ship ever visited an Israeli port (Haifa), and even then there was resistence in the Navy for doing it at all. The ship for this visit was USS Nimitz. I was in one of the fighter squadrons on board. An interesting experience.

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Quote:

The ship for this visit was USS Nimitz. I was in one of the fighter squadrons on board. An interesting experience.

Wow, I bet so!

Cycloptichorn

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Clearly, the Israelis are suffering from a serious case of paranoia, suspecting anything that moves in or near its borders as out-to-get-em. It's gotten so bad that they too often cannot even shoot straight.

I wonder if Israeli paranoia could be moderated a bit if the Arabs were to stop attacking them.

But it is admittedly unrealistic to expect that from the Arabs. They too suffer from their own forms of paranoia, primarily entitlement paranoia.

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I suspect that the trajectory of relations with their neighbors over the last several decades has left the Israelis with no real ideas or hope for a peaceful evolution of the situation they face. As a result there is little internal political opposition to the present government's sometimes mindless retaliatory actions, and, far worse, no apparent incentive for introspection on the excesses of their policies for the last forty years.

All the parties to this dispute appear locked in to positions of permanent hostility, and no alternatives are considered seriously. So much for the spirit of Oslo, Madrid, or Camp David. Diplomacy is futile if the parties have more to gain (as they see it) from continued hostility and everything to loose in any process involving compromise.

It is a cliche among the Left (and Europeans in particular) to blame this situation on an America held hostage to its organized Jewish political action. While there is truth in this assertion, the motivations of those involved and the absence of any similar phenomenon in Europe has its origins in far worse happenings across Europe in the last century.

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ISRAEL - IRAN - SYRIA - HAMAS - HEZBOLLAH - WWWIII?

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