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ISRAEL - IRAN - SYRIA - HAMAS - HEZBOLLAH - WWWIII?

 
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Sat 16 Sep, 2006 07:20 pm
FreeDuck wrote:
ican711nm wrote:
FreeDuck wrote:

...

Besides the links ehBeth posted, which I know you won't see as credible, we have them announcing their intentions prior to the attack.

A declaration of intentions prior to an attack is not evidence of what was actually done during the attack. But it is evidence of trying to intimidate the enemy before the attack.


No, but I'm not trying to prove what was actually done during the attack, there is plenty of evidence to support that freely available. I am backing up my statement that Israel announced their intentions to destroy Lebanon's infrastructure.


Yes, Israel, before and after their invasion of Lebanon, announced their intention to destroy Lebanon's infrastructure in order to reduce Hezbollah's ability to re-arm itself.

Yes, Hezbullah, before and after their capture of two Israeli soldiers, announced their intention to destroy all of Israel, not just its infrastructure.
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FreeDuck
 
  1  
Reply Sat 16 Sep, 2006 07:20 pm
Foxfyre wrote:

Using any generic examples one wishes to use or make up, there is a larger principle here.

Hizbollah wanted release of Arab prisoners, all of which are charged with serious crimes against the Israeli people. One of these forced a young child to watch as he tortured and raped and then brutally murdered her mother so that would be the last thing she saw before the murderer bashed in the head of the child.

So Hizbollah kidnaps Israeli soldiers presumably as leverage to negotiate a prisoner exchange. Based on the timeline cited, it is safe to say that Hizbollah also had numerous rocket launchers and a large supply of rockets ready to use and in fact did start firing these when the IDF went into Lebanon to rescue its soldiers. Again they had also occasionally fired rockets at random into Israeli territory before this incident as well.

In the face of this, some would have Israel negotiate peacefully to resolve each issue after terrorist attacks, or in other words, give the terrorists what they demand.

Call me naive, but this seems to me to be a huge incentive for terrorists to initiate more attacks.


Ok, so now it's "what should Israel have done to get their soldiers back?" Good, that's a more honest question. My answer to that is I don't know. You tell me "what could Lebanon have done to get their land back" or "what could the Palestinians have done to get their homes back and some decent water sources" and I'll be happy to have a go at answering it. The fact is that we are not required to present alternatives to deplorable behavior.

Look, Israel didn't do anything to have their soldiers kidnapped, and I think it's probably true that because they traded prisoners before, hizbollah felt they could do it again. But long term, the response they gave was not in the best interests of Israel or the region.
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Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Sat 16 Sep, 2006 07:48 pm
But that wasn't the question. The question is what does Israel do to stop the rocket attacks other than what it did do.

FD's suggestion of a cease fire was the ONLY suggestion any of Israel's critics have offered so far.

How does one negotiate with terrorists in such a case without giving the terrorists what they wanted in the first place or without letting terrorists get away with terrorist attacks with impunity?

That is a very honest qustion.
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Sat 16 Sep, 2006 07:57 pm
FreeDuck wrote:

...

Ok, so now it's "what should Israel have done to get their soldiers back?" Good, that's a more honest question. My answer to that is I don't know.

Good, that is a more honest answer.

Criticism absent a suggested alternative is substanceless. That is it offers nothing meaningful to help one evaluate the validity of the criticism.

...

But long term, the response they gave was not in the best interests of Israel or the region.

This statement, "not in the best interests of Israel", is a relative or comparative statement. To evaluate the validity of this statement we must be able to compare what Israel did with a suggested alternative that someone thinks is in Israel's best interest or more nearly in Israel's best interests.

If it were true that Israel really had no better alternative for defending its people than the alternative it chose, then it is quite academic whether or not anyone in wishful contemplation imagines Israel to have had a better alternative.

I can criticise your posts here the same worthless way.

The response you gave was not in your best interests in this forum, because it will fail to convince all others here there is a reason to treat your response seriously.

As worthless as my last comment is, it did include a because , but your worthless comment did not.


Foxfyre wrote:
...What could Israel have done to stop the rocket attacks launched by Hezbollah that would have been considered law abiding by those criticizing Israel for what it did do?
0 Replies
 
FreeDuck
 
  1  
Reply Sat 16 Sep, 2006 08:38 pm
I'm a little perplexed that you both seem to be saying that the rocket attacks were actually a response to Israel's crossing into Lebanon, but then want to know what Israel should have done to stop the rocket attacks. The fact remains, no matter how many times you ask the question, that the attack wasn't launched to stop rocket attacks. And the one thing that DID stop the rocket attacks was a negotiated cease fire. Continued violence did not stop the attacks, neither did it get the soldiers back.

And ican, criticism does not require a positive alternative suggestion unless you're dealing with children. I'm not in the business of advising Israel or anyone else.
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Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Sat 16 Sep, 2006 08:56 pm
FreeDuck wrote:
I'm a little perplexed that you both seem to be saying that the rocket attacks were actually a response to Israel's crossing into Lebanon, but then want to know what Israel should have done to stop the rocket attacks. The fact remains, no matter how many times you ask the question, that the attack wasn't launched to stop rocket attacks. And the one thing that DID stop the rocket attacks was a negotiated cease fire. Continued violence did not stop the attacks, neither did it get the soldiers back.

And ican, criticism does not require a positive alternative suggestion unless you're dealing with children. I'm not in the business of advising Israel or anyone else.


Yes, the attacks that are coming under criticism in this thread were in direct response to rocket attacks. There would have been no attacks on Lebanon's residential neighborhoods or infrastructure if Hizbollah had not been launching rockets targeting Israeli citizens. If Israel had not been going after the rocket launchers, what cease fire would there have been to negotiate?

So the question is a legitimate one. If Israel was committing war crimes in its effort to stop the rocket attacks, as has been suggested by several on this thread, what else could it have done to stop the rocket attacks other than what it did?

There really are only three choices here if Israel was not able to do what it did do legally:

1) Capitulate to the terrorist demands in the first place and not attempt to rescue its soldiers
2) Endure the rocket attacks and do nothing, or
3) Do something else.

Assuming that reasonable people reject options 1 and 2, that something else is what nobody seems to be able to come up with while they are condemning Israel for the actions it took. And if there is nothing else Israel could have done short of capitulating to the terrorist's demands or doing nothing other than what it did, how is what it did so terrible?
0 Replies
 
McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Sat 16 Sep, 2006 11:06 pm
Setanta wrote:
ehBeth's source lists just fewer than 4000 rockets were launched by Hezbollah into Israel. This resulted in the deaths of 39 civilians. ...

If more than 1200 Lebanese were killed, in comparison to the 39 Israelis, and thousands more were maimed, with hundreds of thousands made homeless--one is left to wonder what the Hell Fox considers major military action to be.

We do know, though, that as far as Fox is concerned any criticism of Israel at all makes one anti-Israeli, and suspect of wanting Israel to cease to exist.


Israel, after years and years of being attacked and having mortar and missile attacks be a constant nuissance from groups such as Hezbollah has learned to seek shelter from attacks. They have bomb shelters in nearly every community and most homes have their own shelters. Hezbollah is also using very inaccurate ordinance and obviously lack the skills to be more precise with their missiles.

That could explain the discrepancy in the death rates that you whine about. It wasn't for lack of trying on hezbollahs part though. They would have been just as happy hitting a school as a military bunker.

Is that what bothers the left? That more Jews didn't die during the fighting?
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Sat 16 Sep, 2006 11:12 pm
McGentrix wrote:
Is that what bothers the left? That more Jews didn't die during the fighting?
Question

You get this idea from what response/link/quote?
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Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Sun 17 Sep, 2006 01:26 am
Several members have commented that many more in the Lebanese neighborhoods died than did people on the Israeli side. They use this to try to show that Israel's response was disproportionate (and therefore illegal).

Of course they don't take into account that Hizbollah intentionally put civilians at risk while Israel did their best to protect the women and children and provide safe haven for them.

And yet Israel is still seen as the villain in the fight by many posting on this thread.
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Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Sun 17 Sep, 2006 01:59 am
While I agree that Israel's response was disproportionate, don't think therefore illegal, I still have never noticed "several members" asking more Jews to die during the fighting.

That above reply doesn't prove such either.
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revel
 
  1  
Reply Sun 17 Sep, 2006 06:38 am
You guys just keep getting sillier in you desperate attempt to make Israel out to be the victims again instead of equal aggressor.

1. Not too many people have denied that Hezbollah has committed war crimes by disregarding the safety of civilians and killing them.

2. The sheer magnitude of the deaths of civilians and the destruction of civilian infrastructure renders the defense of human shields mute. Also, it has been investigated and documented that excuse has not always been the true facts of the case.

3. Despite the made up here in this thread excuse of Hezbollah firing thousands of rockets into Israel before the hostilities started on Israel side, that was not what caused Israel to start the war. Olmert stated point blank that the crossing of border and attacking the military (forgot the official name for a moment) vehicle and killing x many people in the process plus kidnapping two Israel soldiers is what caused Olmert to attack Lebanon.

4. It is also documented from Israel that they were going to take Lebanon back twenty years and all of Lebanon was going to their target not just Hezbollah-links have already been left in this thread proving it. So the excuse of Hezbollah using human shields being the only reason so many Lebanon citizens got killed just don't wash for that reason as well.

5. The reason that this retaliatory action was out of proportion was because they killed so many Lebanon citizens and destroyed most of Lebanon all because two Israeli soldiers were kidnapped and some few Israeli were killed in process. That was the reason given for the retaliation action given by Israel and their response was not only out of proportion but violated international law.

6. Hezbollah also broke international law by killing Israeli citizens. The reason people don't go on about it is because there is not much doubt about the fact unlike the case of Israel.

7. Even if Hezbollah was using civilians and civilian infrastructure as human shields (which hasn't been proven in all cases and in some has been proven otherwise) they had to have taken some steps to protect civilians and loss of life to civilians according to international law. With the sheer number of loss of life to civilians that was not the case; therefore, Israel broke international law.
0 Replies
 
mysteryman
 
  1  
Reply Sun 17 Sep, 2006 06:52 am
revel said...

5
Quote:
. The reason that this retaliatory action was out of proportion was because they killed so many Lebanon citizens and destroyed most of Lebanon all because two Israeli soldiers were kidnapped and some few Israeli were killed in process. That was the reason given for the retaliation action given by Israel and their response was not only out of proportion but violated international law.


So,how many people must be killed to make ertaliatory attacks legal?

Does Israel have to lose 1000,10000,just how many people is enough before they defend themselves?
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Sun 17 Sep, 2006 07:27 am
So what is Israel allowed to do to stop Hisbollah from firing rockets into its civilian neighborhoods?

1) Nothing?
2) Something?
3) What?

What in your view is "proportional?" when you're having rockets fired at you?
0 Replies
 
FreeDuck
 
  1  
Reply Sun 17 Sep, 2006 08:07 am
Foxfyre wrote:
So what is Israel allowed to do to stop Hisbollah from firing rockets into its civilian neighborhoods?

1) Nothing?
2) Something?
3) What?

What in your view is "proportional?" when you're having rockets fired at you?


One more time, the actions Israel took were not taken in order to stop rocket attacks. When Israel stopped bombing Lebanon, Hizbollah stopped bombing Israel. Please read some of the links that have been posted. I am not criticizing Israel for retaliating against Hizbollah. I'm criticizing them for deliberately trying to destroy Lebanon's infrastructure because it was short sighted and just makes things worse in the long run. Your insistence that Israel had to destroy Lebanese infrastructure in order to stop rocket attacks hasn't been proven.
0 Replies
 
mysteryman
 
  1  
Reply Sun 17 Sep, 2006 08:13 am
FreeDuck wrote:
Foxfyre wrote:
So what is Israel allowed to do to stop Hisbollah from firing rockets into its civilian neighborhoods?

1) Nothing?
2) Something?
3) What?

What in your view is "proportional?" when you're having rockets fired at you?


One more time, the actions Israel took were not taken in order to stop rocket attacks. When Israel stopped bombing Lebanon, Hizbollah stopped bombing Israel. Please read some of the links that have been posted. I am not criticizing Israel for retaliating against Hizbollah. I'm criticizing them for deliberately trying to destroy Lebanon's infrastructure because it was short sighted and just makes things worse in the long run. Your insistence that Israel had to destroy Lebanese infrastructure in order to stop rocket attacks hasn't been proven.


Where was Hezbollah getting their rockets?
How were those rockets getting into Lebanon?

It has ALWAYS been sound military policy to destroy an enemies supply lines and means of resupply.
By destroying the roads,bridges and airports,it stopped Hezbollah's ability to quickly and easily resupply.

We did it to the Germans and the Japanese in WW2,we tried it during the Vietnam war,and it has been a standard military tactic throughout history.
0 Replies
 
FreeDuck
 
  1  
Reply Sun 17 Sep, 2006 08:16 am
And the hospitals, electrical stations, and water treatment plants?
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Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Sun 17 Sep, 2006 08:27 am
I am going to put Revel and Freeduck's vote down as Israel is not allowed to do anything. So far neither of them have acknowledged that Israel was allowed to do anything and they don't seem to understand that Israel was not bombing Lebanon at the time the rocket attacks started.

It would seem to me that the reasonable way to look at this is that if Hezbollah had not fired rockets at Israel, Israel would not have bombed Lebanon. It would seem to me that Israel was going about its business and wasn't bothering anybody until Hizbollah initiated hostilities.

But somehow, some people are simply not capable of seeing that simple truth.

If Israel had not attempted to rescue its kidnapped soldiers, then there would have been no problem.

And there you have it. It was all Israel's fault from the beginning.
0 Replies
 
mysteryman
 
  1  
Reply Sun 17 Sep, 2006 08:33 am
FreeDuck wrote:
And the hospitals, electrical stations, and water treatment plants?


Electrical stations and water treatment plants can be legitimate targets,IF the enemy benefits from them.
By destroying them,you cripple the enemies ability to wage war,because the enemy uses them for power and water.
Those are both vital to fighting a war.

Hospitals?
I have seen no evidence tha Israel INTENTIONALLY targeted hospitals.
If they did,then I will agree that was a crime,but nobody has shown that it intentionally happened.
0 Replies
 
FreeDuck
 
  1  
Reply Sun 17 Sep, 2006 08:38 am
mysteryman wrote:
FreeDuck wrote:
And the hospitals, electrical stations, and water treatment plants?


Electrical stations and water treatment plants can be legitimate targets,IF the enemy benefits from them.
By destroying them,you cripple the enemies ability to wage war,because the enemy uses them for power and water.
Those are both vital to fighting a war.


They are also vital to popular survival. Collective punishment in order to reduce popular support for the enemy is a crime.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Sun 17 Sep, 2006 08:41 am
So what was Israel allowed to do in this conflict that would not be a crime?
0 Replies
 
 

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