ISRAEL - IRAN - SYRIA - HAMAS - HEZBOLLAH - WWWIII?

You wrote the expression "anti-Isreali crowd" and now deny that you used the word crowd. That is a lie.

You stated that i had said NOBODY (you used the all caps) here is anti-Isreali and that is a lie.

If you don't being told you are a liar, then don't lie.

I can and will comment on any post at this site, and i won't ask your permission to do so.

You erected strawmen, with the intent of slurring people with whom you disagree. You got called on it, and now you're peeing your pants and whining about it. Grow up.

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Setanta wrote:

In other words, McWhitey, you can't provide a list of names.

I know of one member, and one member only who would fit on both of those lists, and that is Freedom4free.

So if you want to suggest that there are any others who need inclusion on that list, name them, and provide the posts which support your charge. Put up or shut up.

I know it hasn't occured to you, but criticizing the actions and policies of the Israeli government does not constitute being anti-Israeli, and is not evidence that any one so criticizing the Israeli government doesn't think Israel should exist at all.

Spare us your mealy-mouther rightwingnut tripe, McWhitey. Back it up or shut up.

http://www.able2know.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=2246600#2246600

InfraBlue wrote:

Foxfyre wrote:
Gleaning from today's e-mail:

The Truth

Regardless of your feelings about the crisis between Israel and the
Palestinians, Lebanon, and other Arab neighbors the next two sentences really say it all:

* If the Arabs put down their weapons today, there would be no more
violence.

* If the Jews put down their weapons today, there would be no more Israel.

If the Arabs put down their weapons today, there would be no more violence, but there would still be the status quo in which Israel discriminates and oppresses the Palestinian people.

If the Jews put down their weapons today, there would be no more Israel, but this statement begs the question, why should a discriminatory and oppressive regime be allowed to exist in the first place?

http://www.able2know.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=2155171#2155171

freedom4free wrote:

It's Time to Stand Against Israel

By Matt Hutaff, Jul 18, 2006

What does it take to see that Israel is a global menace the United States should not support?

--

http://www.guardian.co.uk/cartoons/martinrowson/archive/0,,1284262,00.html

http://www.able2know.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=1890186#1890186

stevewonder wrote:

Brandon9000 wrote:
pachelbel wrote:
Chumly wrote:
It's probably more apt to say simply that Israel's mere existence "feeds the cancer of anti-Semitism".

I suppose so. Their treatment of the Palestinians doesn't win points with me, anyway. Terrorism, plain and simple, and sanctioned by the US. Why?

When Palestinian's strap bombs to themselves and go into public places where only non-combatants and even children will be blown up, it pales anything Israel might do wrong (like trying to continue to exist).

I have brilliant idea on how to stop sucde bombers!!
I think if the US starts giving billion of dollars of military aid, F-16s, tanks and the latest shoot em up gagdets I think they'll stop strapping bombs to themselves and blewing themselves up!!!

I should be F****** taking over from Kofi whats his face!

Oh and give them some bull dozers for good measure so they bull doze any israel who objects to the F 16 and tanks blewing them to ****!

or there is another idea the Israels could start treating the Palestinians like human beings and stop impersonating Nazis!!!

Sounds crazy folks but it just might work!!

Listening to israeli-american (and I use the second word losely) rant on about suicde bombers as though butter would melt in their mouths is boring the **** outta me and further more its patronizing me..!!!!

Hey losers! some of us have got brains you morons!!!

There are more, but you know how to use the search function just as well as I do.

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EU: We'll back PA unity gov't, it will recognize Israel

By Avi Issacharoff, Haaretz Correspondent, and Agencies

European Union foreign ministers agreed Friday to back a Palestinian national unity government being formed by Palestinian Authority Chairman Mahmoud Abbas with the Hamas movement, despite U.S. misgivings.

"We agreed that we have to support the new Palestinian government. It's a very important turning point for the situation," Italian Foreign Minister Massimo D'Alema told Reuters.

"[EU foreign policy chief] Javier Solana told us in the platform there will be recognition by the new government of the treaty signed by the Palestinian Authority in the past - it means recognise Israel as a partner," D'Alema said.

The EU, U.S., Russia and UN together form a body dedicated to peace-making in the Middle East known as the Quartet.

The national unity government will replace the previous Hamas-led one, whose strident anti-Israel views have caused international aid to dry up, triggering financial chaos.

"We have a new Palestinian government. We have a new situation, and we should use it to get back to the peace process," Finnish Foreign Minister Erkki Tuomioja, chairing the meeting of 25 EU ministers, told reporters on arrival.

D'Alema did not say whether the EU would resume contacts and financial assistance once the new government was in place.

Slovenian Foreign Minister Dimitrij Rupel told reporters: "We are happy about the government of national unity. We are now trying to help it, also financially."

But Britain's Europe Minister Geoff Hoon said: "We haven't reached that position yet. There is still some further clarification [needed] as to precisely what is the underlying agreement involving Hamas."

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/761964.html

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Thanks McG. And further I never said there was a CROWD who was against Israel's right to exist which seems to escape a certain party. I have referred to the members condemning Israel on this thread as being part of or being the anti-Israel crowd and have been quite specific on why I refer to them in those terms.

When they can find anything positive of any kind to say about Israel, then I no longer consider them part of the anti-Israel crowd. It's pretty hard to refer to people who have nothing but critical comments to say about Israel as being "pro-Israel".

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Foxfyre wrote:

Those on your side say they expect Israel to follow the law. Okay, give Israel some ideas of how they can stop illegal rocket attacks AND follow the law.

The rocket attacks were in response to Israel's rocket attacks, were they not? So clearly the war was not intended to stop the rocket attacks. It was also not effective in getting their soldiers back. That leads me to think that there must be another way -- perhaps one that works.

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FreeDuck wrote:

Foxfyre wrote:

Those on your side say they expect Israel to follow the law. Okay, give Israel some ideas of how they can stop illegal rocket attacks AND follow the law.

The rocket attacks were in response to Israel's rocket attacks, were they not? So clearly the war was not intended to stop the rocket attacks. It was also not effective in getting their soldiers back. That leads me to think that there must be another way -- perhaps one that works.

Other way around. Hezballah launched the first misslies into Israel..

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I'd like to believe you, but I haven't been able to find that documented, and not for lack of searching. Please provide me evidence and I will happily retract.

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FreeDuck wrote:

Foxfyre wrote:

Those on your side say they expect Israel to follow the law. Okay, give Israel some ideas of how they can stop illegal rocket attacks AND follow the law.

The rocket attacks were in response to Israel's rocket attacks, were they not? So clearly the war was not intended to stop the rocket attacks. It was also not effective in getting their soldiers back. That leads me to think that there must be another way -- perhaps one that works.

My understanding of the timeline is that Hizbollah crossed the border into Israel and kidnapped two soldiers. Israel pursued Hezbollah into Lebanon in an effort to rescue the soldiers and engaged in a fire fight in which several Israeli soldiers (eight?) were killed. It was at that time that Hezbollah began firing rockets.

So no, if my timeline is correct, Israel did not start this fight and over the next several weeks the Israeli people were in very imminent danger of being blown to bits every time they left their bomb shelters. It was an intolerable situation for them.

Lebanese civilians, on the other hand, were at zero risk from Israeli attacks of any kind so long as their neighborhoods were not being used to house rocket launchers being used by Hizbollah.

So my question remains for anyone who wishes to answer it from the anti-Israel crowd (i.e. those who criticize and never praise Israel):

What could Israel have done to stop those rocket attacks that would not offend your sensibilities or that you would have considered to have been within the law?

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FreeDuck wrote:

I'd like to believe you, but I haven't been able to find that documented, and not for lack of searching. Please provide me evidence and I will happily retract.

Wikipedia *shudder*

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Foxfyre wrote:

So no, if my timeline is correct, Israel did not start this fight and over the next several weeks the Israeli people were in very imminent danger of being blown to bits every time they left their bomb shelters. It was an intolerable situation for them.

I'm not saying Israel started it -- Hizbullah clearly provoked them. But I am saying that a full scale war was both stupid and ineffective.

Quote:

Lebanese civilians, on the other hand, were at zero risk from Israeli attacks of any kind so long as their neighborhoods were not being used to house rocket launchers being used by Hizbollah.

I presume you've seen the maps that show where the bombings were in Lebanon so maybe you want to rethink that statement.

Quote:

So my question remains for anyone who wishes to answer it from the anti-Israel crowd (i.e. those who criticize and never praise Israel):

What could Israel have done to stop those rocket attacks that would not offend your sensibilities or that you would have considered to have been within the law?

I'd be happy to answer as soon as I am sure that your timeline is correct.

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It is worth noting that this was not the first incident of Hizbollah firing random rockets into Israel, most of which did not prompt retalitory action from Israel. This time, however, it was dozens to hundreds daily over a period of weeks.

Here's a short BBC version of what happened on July 12:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/5179434.stm

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FreeDuck wrote:

Foxfyre wrote:

So no, if my timeline is correct, Israel did not start this fight and over the next several weeks the Israeli people were in very imminent danger of being blown to bits every time they left their bomb shelters. It was an intolerable situation for them.

I'm not saying Israel started it -- Hizbullah clearly provoked them. But I am saying that a full scale war was both stupid and ineffective.

Quote:
Lebanese civilians, on the other hand, were at zero risk from Israeli attacks of any kind so long as their neighborhoods were not being used to house rocket launchers being used by Hizbollah.

I presume you've seen the maps that show where the bombings were in Lebanon so maybe you want to rethink that statement.

Quote:
So my question remains for anyone who wishes to answer it from the anti-Israel crowd (i.e. those who criticize and never praise Israel):

What could Israel have done to stop those rocket attacks that would not offend your sensibilities or that you would have considered to have been within the law?

I'd be happy to answer as soon as I am sure that your timeline is correct.

Surely if you've read much in this thread, you could not have missed the reason Israel was forced to go after the rocket launchers in civilian neighborhoos. They were forced to go after them there because that's where they were, usually in neighborhoods that had not been evacuated and where Hizbollah KNEW civilians would be present and would likely be killed and injured in counter attacks so they could accuse Israel of going after civilians.

The other locations hit by Israel were routes through which Iran/Syria were sending more ammunition to Hizbollah. Iran admitted it furnished Hizbollah with rockets.

What would convince you that the timeline McG posted or I posted is correct?

And regardless of how the conflict started, the question was not who was at fault. The question was what could Israel have done to stop the rocket attacks that the anti-Israel (i.e. those critical of Israel) would have considered to be within the law?

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Quote:

My understanding of the timeline is that Hizbollah crossed the border into Israel and kidnapped two soldiers. Israel pursued Hezbollah into Lebanon in an effort to rescue the soldiers and engaged in a fire fight in which several Israeli soldiers (eight?) were killed. It was at that time that Hezbollah began firing rockets.

According to the BBC-timeline, a link given by the same poster, her understanding is a bit different to that what happened.

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Agreed. The BBC source I posted suggests Hizbollah fire rockets and THEN captured the Israeli soldiers. I think they have that somewhat out of synch however.

This one concurs with the BBC account but again, I think it is in error. i do believe Hizbollah fired rockets on July 12, but it was after the skirmish over the two kidnapped soldiers or was about the same time. I don't think the rocket attack occurred first.

http://worldnews.about.com/od/israellebanonconflict/a/Israel_Lebanon_.htm

This one agrees with my timeline except it says the kidnapping happened on the 12th but the pursuit and rocket attacks started on the 13th:

Hezbollah terrorists cross the blue line border with Lebanon, attack an Israeli patrol, killing 3 and capturing 2 soldiers. Additional soldier dies the following day and several are killed when a tank hits a mine, pursuing the captors. At the same time, Hezbollah began a series of rocket attacks on northern Israel. In subsequent days, Israel carried out massive but selective bombing and artillery shelling of Lebanon, hitting rocket stores, Hezbollah headquarters in Dahya quarter of Beirut (see Beirut Map) and al-Manara television in Beirut, and killing over two hundred persons, many civilians. Hezbollah responds with several hundred rocket attacks on Haifa, Tiberias, Safed and other towns deep in northern Israel, killing 13 civilians to July 18 (See Map of Hezbollah Rocket Attacks) , and a Hezbollah Iranian supplied C-802 missile hits an Israeli missile cruiser off the cost of Beirut, killing 4. Hezbollah rocket also sinks at least one foreign neutral ship and damages an Egyptian one. G-8 meeting calls for cessation of violence, return of Israeli soldier and disarmament of Hezbolla in accordance with UN Security Council Resolution 1559 and UN Security Council Resolution 1680.
http://www.mideastweb.org/timeline.htm

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Foxfyre wrote:

Agreed. The BBC source I posted suggests Hizbollah fire rockets and THEN captured the Israeli soldiers. I think they have that somewhat out of synch however.

It doesn't suggest such - they have published it, like e.g. at the Jerusalem Post but different to e.g. Wikipedia.

It goes confirm with the official Israelian version as published by the Israelian Defense Ministry send via newsletter of the Isralean Embassy in Germany.

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The BBC account says:

Quote:

WEDNESDAY 12 JULY
Hezbollah fighters based in southern Lebanon launch Katyusha rockets across the border with Israel, targeting the town of Shlomi and outposts in the Shebaa Farms area.

In a cross-border raid, guerrillas seize two Israeli soldiers before retreating back into Lebanon, insisting on a prisoner exchange and warning against confrontation. Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert describes the capture of the soldiers as "an act of war".

In response Israeli planes bomb Hezbollah positions in southern Lebanon and troops cross into southern Lebanon for the first time since the military withdrawal of 2000.

However, the troops encounter heavy resistance - eight are killed and two others are injured during fighting with Hezbollah. Israel calls up reserve troops as it pledges a swift and large-scale response to the Hezbollah attack

Now they probably didn't mean to infer that the rocket attacks preceded the kidnapping, but it does read that way.

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revel wrote:

I doubt you have proof that just prior to the conflict Hezbollah fired hundreds of rockets into Israel over a period of weeks. What prompted the retalitory action from Israel was Hezbollah crossing over the border and kidnapping two soldiers and attacked an IDF military vehicle. Olmert said this amounted to an act of war and thus the retalitory action from Israel began.

That's what all Israelian sources say as well - those online as well as others.

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revel wrote:

Foxfyre wrote:
It is worth noting that this was not the first incident of Hizbollah firing random rockets into Israel, most of which did not prompt retalitory action from Israel. This time, however, it was dozens to hundreds daily over a period of weeks.

After the war started you are right, Hezbollah did fire hundred of rockets into civilian areas. I doubt you have proof that just prior to the conflict Hezbollah fired hundreds of rockets into Israel over a period of weeks. What prompted the retalitory action from Israel was Hezbollah crossing over the border and kidnapping two soldiers and attacked an IDF military vehicle. Olmert said this amounted to an act of war and thus the retalitory action from Israel began.

Israel authorizes 'severe' response to abductions

You're right. I don't have proof that Hezbollah fired hundreds of rockets into Israel over a period of weeks just prior to the conflict because I never said I did or that they did. I did say that Hezbollah had fired rockets randomly into Israel prior to this conflict and that has been well documented in this thread. I'll leave that to you to look up, however.

During the conflict before the cease fire, however, Hezbollah fired thousands of rockets into Israel. Israel's count was 4000, if I remember right, and I haven't seen that figure disputed by anybody.

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Foxfyre wrote:

Now they probably didn't mean to infer that the rocket attacks preceded the kidnapping, but it does read that way.

Since English is only my second/third language and since I don't know what the BBC thought when he/she was writing that, you certainly are correct.

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Timeline: Decades of conflict in Lebanon, Israel

Quote:

July 2006: Hezbollah militants cross into Israel, kill three Israeli soldiers and kidnap two others in a bid to negotiate a prisoner exchange, a demand rebuffed by Israel. Another five Israeli soldiers are killed after the ambush. Israel responds with a naval blockade and by bombing hundreds of targets in Lebanon, including Beirut's airport and Hezbollah's headquarters in southern Beirut. Hezbollah responds with rocket attacks targeting northern Israeli cities. Fighting leaves dozens of Lebanese civilians dead and coincides with a two-week-old Israeli military campaign in Gaza in response to the kidnapping of an Israeli soldier by Palestinian militants.

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ISRAEL - IRAN - SYRIA - HAMAS - HEZBOLLAH - WWWIII?

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