ISRAEL - IRAN - SYRIA - HAMAS - HEZBOLLAH - WWWIII?

Setanta wrote:

If you were capable of explaining how a not at all secret report about the utter failure of this administration's efforts in Anbar province in Iraq impinge upon the lives of the Lebanese, the Israelis and the Palestinians, it would be a breath of fresh air in a very, very stale thread.

I'd be delighted to see that--it is simply that nothing recommends itself to me as a connection between the events.

I'm actually rather embarrassed to admit this, but I had made the mental/reading error of seeing Iraq in the thread title. Now, please take the nail out of my shoe and stop slapping me in the face. I'm a small person and god gave me an insufficient portion of dignity.

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Sorry, Boss . . . here, have a cold drink . . .

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Foxfyre wrote:

Great. So you get busy taking the many minutes necessary to evacuate the building with no idea whether or not the bomb will explode within a minute. You followed the law and you allow a lot of people to be kiled and horribly injured. For them and their loved ones it's pretty small comfort that you followed the law. Of course you start evacuation, but you also remove that truck if you can or at least break in to see if there is a bomb that can be defused. That's how I want my loved ones to be protected.

The police have the legal right to open the truck. It's just that they won't do it because they don't want to be blown to bits. They will call the bomb squad, who also has the legal right to open the truck.

And for gunga and ican, it wasn't my example, smartypantses. I was addressing Fox's example.

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So also knowing that Islamofacist bombers complete with bombs and detonators are holed up in a residential neighborhood should be sufficient license to go after them in a residential neighborhood.

If you mean that it would have been ok, in your example, to send a rocket into an apartment building because you think the people who planned the truck bomb were in it, I say no.

One thing I notice in your hypotheticals is the presence of certainty, as if that were ever available in these situations.

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It's sort of like when Israel is being shelled with rockets and they believe a rocket launcher is positioned in a Lebanese residential neighborhood, they have a right to take out that launcher even though it is in a residential neighborhood.

They have an obligation to weigh the military value of the "target" against the lives of the civilians. Just as the terrorists, were they not criminals, would be obligated.

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The evidence for both those things is far more plausible than an anonymous tip during a time when bogus bomb threats were commonplace. But in all cases, those responsible for protecting the lives of the innocent act on the immediate threat BEFORE there is loss of life.

No imminent threat to innocent life, follow the law. Imminent threat, do whatever is necessary to protect innocent life.

But from the perspective of the people being attacked by Israel, the imminent threat is to their loss of life.

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FreeDuck wrote:
Foxfyre wrote:
Great. So you get busy taking the many minutes necessary to evacuate the building with no idea whether or not the bomb will explode within a minute. You followed the law and you allow a lot of people to be kiled and horribly injured. For them and their loved ones it's pretty small comfort that you followed the law. Of course you start evacuation, but you also remove that truck if you can or at least break in to see if there is a bomb that can be defused. That's how I want my loved ones to be protected.

The police have the legal right to open the truck. It's just that they won't do it because they don't want to be blown to bits. They will call the bomb squad, who also has the legal right to open the truck.
.

So all it takes is an anonymous tip to make it legal for the police to override the requirement for a warrant to forcibly enter private property without permission and without a warrant? Are you willing to stand by that in all circumstances?

The issue is not HOW the police would handle th esituation, but the prudence in handling it. Protecting innocent life trumps protocol every time.

Now suppose the anonymous tip said "a truck parked near the federal building?" The police don't know which truck it is, but they know that if the tip is accurate, they don't have time to evacuate the building. Do they break into them all? I say yes. What say you?

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And for gunga and ican, it wasn't my example, smartypantses. I was addressing Fox's example.

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So also knowing that Islamofacist bombers complete with bombs and detonators are holed up in a residential neighborhood should be sufficient license to go after them in a residential neighborhood.

If you mean that it would have been ok, in your example, to send a rocket into an apartment building because you think the people who planned the truck bomb were in it, I say no.

That was not the issue, however. The issue was in whether Israel can go into residential neighborhoods at all to locate and capture or kill Islamofacist bombers. The anti-Israel crowd here says no. I say yes.

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One thing I notice in your hypotheticals is the presence of certainty, as if that were ever available in these situations.

Of course there is no certainty when the people will not tell you who the terrorists are or where they are hiding. So Israel has two choices. They can either accept the bombing of crowded busses and markets or the continuous shelling of residential neighborhoods as an inevitable part of their lives, or they can protect the innocent lives of Israeli and Arab citizens in Israel and do whatever they have to do to stop it. The anti-Israel crowd says they should just take it or leave. I say they should do whatever they have to do to stop it.

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It's sort of like when Israel is being shelled with rockets and they believe a rocket launcher is positioned in a Lebanese residential neighborhood, they have a right to take out that launcher even though it is in a residential neighborhood.

They have an obligation to weigh the military value of the "target" against the lives of the civilians. Just as the terrorists, were they not criminals, would be obligated.

They have more obligation to weigh the safety and peace of their own citizens against than the safety and peace of those who would do violence to them.

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The evidence for both those things is far more plausible than an anonymous tip during a time when bogus bomb threats were commonplace. But in all cases, those responsible for protecting the lives of the innocent act on the immediate threat BEFORE there is loss of life.

No imminent threat to innocent life, follow the law. Imminent threat, do whatever is necessary to protect innocent life.

But from the perspective of the people being attacked by Israel, the imminent threat is to their loss of life.

I go back to a previous post.

If the Palestinians and terorists from other Arab countries lay down their arms and cease hostilities today, there will be no more violence or violations of their property and peace.

If the Israel lays down their arms today, there will soon be no more Israel.

It's as simple as that, but it's something that the anti-Israel crowd will not acknowledge.

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Foxfyre wrote:

I don't blame innocent Palestinians. But are those who harbor, protect, and/or conceal terrorists among and/or who elect terrorists for their leadership truly innocent?

Ironically, this is the very argument that Osama uses to justify killing civilians.

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When the Palestinians themselves reject terrorism and become peaceful, law abiding citizens of israel, the Israelis have demonstrated that they will no longer discriminate against Palestinians.

This is the second time I've seen you post that Israel doesn't descriminate against the Palestinians if they are citizens. I haven't seen anyone challenge you yet.

1) Israel doesn't want the Palestinians to be Israeli citizens. If they allowed all of them to be citizens, they would no longer have a Jewish majority.

2) Discrimination against Arab Israelis is wide spread and instituional. I can provide you links if you like.

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FreeDuck wrote:

Foxfyre wrote:

I don't blame innocent Palestinians. But are those who harbor, protect, and/or conceal terrorists among and/or who elect terrorists for their leadership truly innocent?

Ironically, this is the very argument that Osama uses to justify killing civilians.

The difference is that Osama goes after the civilians. The Israelis go after the terrorists.

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When the Palestinians themselves reject terrorism and become peaceful, law abiding citizens of israel, the Israelis have demonstrated that they will no longer discriminate against Palestinians.

This is the second time I've seen you post that Israel doesn't descriminate against the Palestinians if they are citizens. I haven't seen anyone challenge you yet.

I said that Israel does not discriminate against law abiding citizens. And if you haven't seen a challenge to that, you haven't been reading the thread.

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1) Israel doesn't want the Palestinians to be Israeli citizens. If they allowed all of them to be citizens, they would no longer have a Jewish majority.

2) Discrimination against Arab Israelis is wide spread and instituional. I can provide you links if you like.

Lots of links have been provided showing that Israel discriminates against Arabs, all of which are from pointedly anti-Israel sites. And lots of links showing that peaceful, law abiding Arabs have full rights of citizenship, even privileges the Jewish Israelis don't have have been posted from more credible sites.

Israel's history suggests that you are wrong that they would not afford full citizenship rights to peaceful, law abiding Palestinians. And this link takes you to a graph clearly showing that the Palestinians do not outnumber the Jews,. so you are wrong about that too:

http://www.israelipalestinianprocon.org/populationpalestine.html

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Foxfyre wrote:

So all it takes is an anonymous tip to make it legal for the police to override the requirement for a warrant to forcibly enter private property without permission and without a warrant? Are you willing to stand by that in all circumstances?

Yes. The only thing a warrant gets you is admissibility in a court of law.

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Now suppose the anonymous tip said "a truck parked near the federal building?" The police don't know which truck it is, but they know that if the tip is accurate, they don't have time to evacuate the building. Do they break into them all? I say yes. What say you?

Do they have the right and the ability to? Yes.

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That was not the issue, however. The issue was in whether Israel can go into residential neighborhoods at all to locate and capture or kill Islamofacist bombers. The anti-Israel crowd here says no. I say yes.

Really? I have a hunch you are paraphrasing this in a light favorable to your own position, but I will surely scroll back far enough to verify that the "anti-Israel crowd" really thinks that Israel cannot go into residential neighborhoods to capture or kill terrorists.

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Of course there is no certainty when the people will not tell you who the terrorists are or where they are hiding. So Israel has two choices. They can either accept the bombing of crowded busses and markets or the continuous shelling of residential neighborhoods as an inevitable part of their lives, or they can protect the innocent lives of Israeli and Arab citizens in Israel and do whatever they have to do to stop it. The anti-Israel crowd says they should just take it or leave. I say they should do whatever they have to do to stop it.

Or they can do both, as they have been doing for some time now.

And of course, "whatever they have to do" is subject to interpretation, right?

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They have more obligation to weigh the safety and peace of their own citizens against than the safety and peace of those who would do violence to them.

Yes, but that's largely a numbers game, right? Do you kill 500 arabs so that 25 Israelis in bomb shelters can be safe?

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I go back to a previous post.

If the Palestinians and terorists from other Arab countries lay down their arms and cease hostilities today, there will be no more violence or violations of their property and peace.

Unfortunately, from the people on the receiving end in the middle east, the response to that is probably "sez you". Israel has used their might to take land in the past, justified or not. And if you are one of the people who no longer has a country, or a job, or a future due to the fact that Israel wanted their land, you won't see it them as acting purely defensive.

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If the Israel lays down their arms today, there will soon be no more Israel.

I don't think anyone expects Israel to disarm. But to quote Saeb Erikat, they are not the small David anymore.

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Since you didn't discredit any of my posts other than with personal opinion and you joined with the others with specific or implied parroting of Israel's 'sins', I'll accept that you are part of the anti-Israel crowd, Freeduck, and that's cool. I do appreciate that you made it a discussion and not a "I hate Israel" rant.

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Foxfyre wrote:

Lots of links have been provided showing that Israel discriminates against Arabs, all of which are from pointedly anti-Israel sites. And lots of links showing that peaceful, law abiding Arabs have full rights of citizenship, even privileges the Jewish Israelis don't have have been posted from more credible sites.

Israel's history suggests that you are wrong that they would not afford full citizenship rights to peaceful, law abiding Palestinians. And this link takes you to a graph clearly showing that the Palestinians do not outnumber the Jews,. so you are wrong about that too:

http://www.israelipalestinianprocon.org/populationpalestine.html

Well, I might have been wrong had I actually said either of those things. I said they discriminate, and that is pretty well acknowledged by Israelis. To their credit, many of them are trying to do something about it.

http://www.acri.org.il/english-acri/engine/story.asp?id=100

I never said that the Palestinians outnumbered the Jews. I said the Jews would no longer be a majority.

I do, want to register a question about the link you posted, though. How is it that the state of Israel managed to lose about 369,000 arabs between 2003 and 2004?

VII. By Area: Arab / Jewish Population (2003-2004)
B. Chart
Israel West Bank Gaza Strip Total
Jews 5,165,4001 371,0002 7,5002 5,543,900
Arabs 1,214,9001 2,300,2933 1,337,2363 4,852,429

V. Israel: Arab / Jewish Population (1949 - 2003)
B. Chart (Sources & Notes)
Year Jews Arabs Total % of Jews to Total
1949 1,013,900 159,100 1,73,000 86.436%
1967* 2,383,600 392,700 2,776,300 85.855%
1973 2,845,000 493,200 3,338,200 85.225%
1983** 3,412,500 706,100 4,118,600 82.855%
1993 4,335,200 992,400 5,327,600 81.372%
2000 4,955,400 1,413,900 6,369,300 77.801%
2003 5,165,400 1,583,000 6,748,400 76.542%

Not saying the numbers aren't right, of course, just that maybe they are having a hard time counting the arabs. In any case, if they are not worried about losing their majority then a simple solution to the Palesitinian problem is a one-state solution.

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Foxfyre wrote:

Since you didn't discredit any of my posts other than with personal opinion and you joined with the others with specific or implied parroting of Israel's 'sins', I'll accept that you are part of the anti-Israel crowd, Freeduck, and that's cool. I do appreciate that you made it a discussion and not a "I hate Israel" rant.

Patience Fox, some of us have actual work to do. I have no interest in "discrediting" your posts, only arguing where I think you are wrong. And I think I've been pretty fair to Israel considering that this isn't a thread about all of the good things Israel does in the middle east.

I am perfectly willing to let you do the labeling you are so good at if it makes life easier for you. Tell me, do you use the Dymo personal labelmaker? I've always wanted one of those. It does help us to stay organized if we always know where everyone, I mean everything, is.

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The percentages in the link I posted are different from Freeducks. I think the Jews would remain a majority in any case; however since they have already relinquished much of Gaza and the West Bank, inclusion of Arabs in those areas is moot unless of course the Palestinians wish to deed that land back to the Israelis.

The two state solution has been systematically rejected first by Arafat and then Hamas.

Whatever the final solution, the evidence is overwhelming that Israel initates no military action against the Arabs but will retaliate/defend itself when overtly threatened or attacked.

Neither the Palestinians nor any other Arabs have any reason to fear the Israelis if they choose to live in peace with the Israelis. And history has been quite consistent on that score.

History for the last five or six decades is consistent that if the Arabs stop hostilities against Israel there will be peace so far as Israel is concerned.

The history also strongly suggests that if the Israelis dismantle their policy of self defense/retaliation, there will soon be no more Israel.

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I'd like to refute some of that, but all I have is personal opinion and this labelmaker.

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Foxfyre wrote:

Infrablue wrote:
Why do you make Israel's discrimination and oppression against the Palestinian majority contingent upon the actions of a few terrorist extremists?

For the Israelis it is literally a matter of life and death.

Which perpetuates the matter when it collectively punishes the majority for the actions of the few.

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When the Palestinians themselves reject terrorism and become peaceful, law abiding citizens of israel, the Israelis have demonstrated that they will no longer discriminate against Palestinians.

The Or Commission report refutes this claim. According to the report, government handling of the Arab sector has been primarily neglectful and discriminatory.

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But then the sources I have posted have a good deal of credibility, while posts from blatantly anti-Israel sites must be considered more suspect.

The source I've cited from primarily is the Or Commission report, a report commissioned by the state of Israel itself. In your attempt to dismiss my points, you say that the state of Israel is anti-Israel.

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Well if that is your criteria for why a regime should be destroyed, why are you not demanding the destruction of governments of Arab countries who are far more discriminatory and oppressive that anything Israel has ever been and certainly more so than Israel is now?

Why do you single out Arab countries?

I demand that Arab, and other countries end their discrimination and oppression of their people. The situation in Kurdistan will escalate in Turkey, Syria and Iran as the Kurds in Iraq gain more and more freedoms and power. The governments of those countries will have to be more egalitarian and pluralistic in the face of rising Kurdish violence in those countries.

The rise of Islamic fundamentalist regimes in the Middle East is also a problem. The peoples in those countries should fight for their human rights as well.

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I would think you would be cheering and encouraging Israel to accomplish that.

Israel isn't trying to accomplish that. The state of Israel is merely trying to survive.

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And you would be one of George Bush's greatest champions for taking out Saddam Hussein.

It's good that Saddam Hussein's regime was destroyed. It isn't good how the US and its allies went about accomplishing that, which has left the country in worse shape than it was under Saddam.

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Well since discrimination and oppression existed in the Middle East long before the arrival of the modern Israeli state, I rather doubt it would just evaporate with the removal of Israel.

Discrimination and oppression in Israel would be at least mitigated with the removal of the state of Israel, an ethnocentrically discriminatory and oppressive regime.

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The State of Israel was created as a place where JEWS could live and be free without discriminaton and oppressions heaped on them.

With the price of discrimination and oppression of the Palestinian people at the hands of the state of Israel.

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The fact that they have extended such policies to others and are the most inclusive society in the Middle East and are less discriminatory than most nations of the world just doesn't seem to impress you at all.

Ironically, in the Middle East where there is the largest concentration of Arabs in the world, Israel is the most discriminatory and oppressive nation against Arabs. That is what the state of Israel impresses upon me.

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They want to exterminate Israel and all the Jews in it.

There have been postings ad nauseum of the stated policy of Hamas and other Arab leadership and the opinions of the other Arab peoples that make this point quite clearly and explicitly. If you haven't taken the time to read those, I suggest you go back and find them and do so. I won't take the time to hunt them all up again for you.

In other words, you parrot some claims about Hamas and other Arab leadership, but you're unwilling to produce cites to support these claims.

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So I am mystified about how somebody like you can hate Israel so much and yet seem to have all the tolerance and understanding in the world for terrorists. I don't pretend to understand that.

I do not hate Israel. The state of Israel should be dismantled based on moral and logical grounds, not emotional ones. I do not have all the tolerance and understanding in the world for terrorists whether they be Zionists, Arab nationalists or Islamists, regardless of what is seeming to you. Do you understand that?

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You have yet to condemn the Arabs who have repeatedly attacked Israel and you have yet to commend Israel for anything. So I see no straw man. My point was specific, pertinent, and apparently accurate.

What you have proven time and time again in your postings is that what is apparent and seeming to you diverges to a great degree from reality. Perhaps it is your emotionalism that keeps you from seeing this.

Yours was a straw man because you made an assertion based on an accusation--that I do not think Israel should not discriminate against those who firebomb crowded busses and market places-- that is false. To repeat, Israel should not discriminate against, or oppress the Palestinian majority which doesn't firebomb crowded buses and market places. Can you get over your emotionalism enough to see how this is different?

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Everything you have posted on this subject screams anti-Israel everything - pro-Arab anything.

Again, your emotionalism notwithstanding, everything I have posted on this subject, if not exactly screaming, emphasizes the inherent discrimination and oppression of the ethnocentric state of Israel against the Arabs of Palestine.

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I want to thank Freeduck for his figures on the number of Arabs in Israel-

1,583,000 Arabs out of 6,748,000 total in Israel.

I have a few questions which Freeduck may be able to answer since he apparently has access to pertinent statistics.

Question No, 1-- How many Jews live in Iraq? Iran?

What percentage of the population are they?

Question No, 2--( and there are no statistics on this one--If the madmen In Iran do decide in a decade or so to eliminate Israel with a nuclear strike, How many Arabs will die? And what does the Koran say about this?

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I want to recommend that BernardR patiently re-read the last several posts and recognize that "my" figures were copied and pasted from Foxfyre's link.

I want to ask BernardR what relevance his questions have and why he thinks I would know what the koran says or how many people would die in a nuclear strike.

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IT = Islamo Totalitarians (e.g., Fatah, Hamas, Hezbollah, al-Qaeda, Taliban, Baathists, et al).

IT are waging war against non-combatants. Protectors of non-combatants are waging war against IT to end IT's war against non-combatants.

IT are waging war against Israeli, Iraqi and Afghan non-combatants. Israeli, Iraqi, and Afghan protectors of non-combatants are waging war against IT to end IT's war against Israeli, Iraqi, and Afghan non-combatants.

IT are waging war against American non-combatants. American protectors of Israeli, Iraqi, Afghan, and American non-combatants are waging war against IT to end IT's war against Israeli, Iraqi, Afghan, and American non-combatants.

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InfraBlue wrote:

...
Ironically, in the Middle East where there is the largest concentration of Arabs in the world, Israel is the most discriminatory and oppressive nation against Arabs. That is what the state of Israel impresses upon me.
...
What you have proven time and time again in your postings is that what is apparent and seeming to you diverges to a great degree from reality. Perhaps it is your emotionalism that keeps you from seeing this.
...
everything I have posted on this subject, if not exactly screaming, emphasizes the inherent discrimination and oppression of the ethnocentric state of Israel against the Arabs of Palestine.

This statement of yours applies to you:
"what is apparent and seeming to you diverges to a great degree from reality. Perhaps it is your emotionalism that keeps you from seeing this."

It is you who irrationally equates alleged Israeli discrimination of Arabs with proven Arab killing of Israeli non-combatants.

It is you who irrationally equates the fanatic killing of Israeli non-combatants with Israeli self-defense killing of both Arab combatants and Arab non-combatants harboring Arab combatants.

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ican711nm wrote:

This statement of yours applies to you:
"what is apparent and seeming to you diverges to a great degree from reality. Perhaps it is your emotionalism that keeps you from seeing this."

It is you who irrationally equates alleged Israeli discrimination of Arabs with proven Arab killing of Israeli non-combatants.

Where have I equated Israeli discrimination of Arabs with proven Arab killing of Israeli non-combatants?

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It is you who irrationally equates the fanatic killing of Israeli non-combatants with Israeli self-defense killing of both Arab combatants and Arab non-combatants harboring Arab combatants.

Where have I equated fanatic killing of Israeli non-combatants with Israeli self-defense killing of both Arab combatants and Arab non-combatants harboring Arab combatants?

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Thank You Freeduck. I ask the question about the Koran because I thought you might know about it. I do recongize, however, that some people may not be willing either to share their ideas or to do the research. I will then see if I can find a reliable source which would tell me whether the Koran would endorse the killing of a Million Arabs because they happened to be in the land of Israel.

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Ican wrote:

It is you who irrationally equates alleged Israeli discrimination of Arabs with proven Arab killing of Israeli non-combatants.

It is you who irrationally equates the fanatic killing of Israeli non-combatants with Israeli self-defense killing of both Arab combatants and Arab non-combatants harboring Arab combatants.

********************

Only the delusional left wing, so filled with hatred of President Bush would back the fanatic Hezbollah murderers who fire missles into Israel which ARE NOT AIMED AT ANY SPECIAL TARGETS. The left wing does not recognize the parallel of Hezbollah rocket attacks which are indiscriminate with the V-2 attacks by Adolf Hitler against the British. Both the Hezbollah and Hitler's minions were unreasoning maniacs who believed in the supremacy of their cause--Hitler--with his promotion of the Third Reich and Hezbollah with the restoration of the Caliphate.

It is astonishing that the left wing is unaware that the Hezbollah and the extremist Islamic fanatics are concentrating their efforts to extablish Islam as the world's religion!!!

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ISRAEL - IRAN - SYRIA - HAMAS - HEZBOLLAH - WWWIII?

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