ISRAEL - IRAN - SYRIA - HAMAS - HEZBOLLAH - WWWIII?

Israel never stated that the kidnapping was the reason for massive military action.

Israel called Wednesday's abductions an act of war, and Maj. Gen. Udi Adam, head of Israel's Northern Command, said he has "comprehensive plans" to battle Hezbollah throughout Lebanon, not just in its southern stronghold.

"This affair is between Israel and the state of Lebanon," Adam said. "Where to attack? Once it is inside Lebanon, everything is legitimate -- not just southern Lebanon, not just the line of Hezbollah posts."

Earlier, Israel's chief of staff, Lt. Gen. Dan Halutz, told Israel's Channel 10, "If the soldiers are not returned, we will turn Lebanon's clock back 20 years."

The kidnapping triggered a very honoable attempt from Israel to rescue their soldiers--would you wish your German govenrment/military to do any less in that situation?

Article 87a [Establishment and powers of the Armed Forces]
(1) The Federation shall establish Armed Forces for purposes of defense. Their numerical strength and general organizational structure must be shown in the budget.

(2) Apart from defense, the Armed Forces may be employed only to the extent expressly permitted by this Basic Law.

(3) During a state of defense or a state of tension the Armed Forces shall have the power to protect civilian property and to perform traffic control functions to the extent necessary to accomplish their defense mission. Moreover, during a state of defense or a state of tension, the Armed Forces may also be authorized to support police measures for the protection of civilian property; in this event the Armed Forces shall cooperate with the competent authorities.

(4) In order to avert an imminent danger to the existence or free democratic basic order of the Federation or of a Land, the Federal Government, if the conditions referred to in paragraph (2) of Article 91 obtain and the police forces and the Federal Border Police prove inadequate, may employ the Armed Forces to support the police and the Federal Border Police in protecting civilian property and in combating organized armed insurgents. Any such employment of the Armed Forces shall be discontinued if the Bundestag or the Bundesrat so demands.

Israel never denied that the magnitude of its attack was for rocket and other attacks on Israel over about 18 years.

The massive military action was the direct result of Hezbollah launching thousands of Syrian/Iranian furnished rockets into Israeli civilian neighborhoods.

No country would tolerate an attack on its territory resulting in the killing and kidnapping of soldiers.

Associated Press
Hezbollah Captures 2 Israeli Soldiers
By JOSEPH PANOSSIAN , 07.12.2006, 05:41 AM



The militant group Hezbollah captured two Israeli soldiers during clashes Wednesday across the border in southern Lebanon, prompting a swift reaction from Israel, which sent ground forces into its neighbor to look for them.

The forces were trying to keep the soldiers' captors from moving them deeper into Lebanon, Israeli government officials said on condition of anonymity.

The Israeli military would not confirm the report.

Earlier, Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert called an emergency Cabinet meeting and said Lebanese guerrillas would pay a "heavy price" for Wednesday's attacks.

"These are difficult days for the state of Israel and its citizens," Olmert said. "There are people ... who are trying to test our resolve. They will fail and they will pay a heavy price for their actions."

Foxfyre wrote:

The kidnapping triggered a very honoable attempt from Israel to rescue their soldiers--would you wish your German govenrment/military to do any less in that situation?

I don't know how old europe will answer this. But I'm rather sure, he thinks as well as I do that our government and military won't act against our constitution:

Quote:

Article 87a [Establishment and powers of the Armed Forces]
(1) The Federation shall establish Armed Forces for purposes of defense. Their numerical strength and general organizational structure must be shown in the budget.

(2) Apart from defense, the Armed Forces may be employed only to the extent expressly permitted by this Basic Law.

(3) During a state of defense or a state of tension the Armed Forces shall have the power to protect civilian property and to perform traffic control functions to the extent necessary to accomplish their defense mission. Moreover, during a state of defense or a state of tension, the Armed Forces may also be authorized to support police measures for the protection of civilian property; in this event the Armed Forces shall cooperate with the competent authorities.

(4) In order to avert an imminent danger to the existence or free democratic basic order of the Federation or of a Land, the Federal Government, if the conditions referred to in paragraph (2) of Article 91 obtain and the police forces and the Federal Border Police prove inadequate, may employ the Armed Forces to support the police and the Federal Border Police in protecting civilian property and in combating organized armed insurgents. Any such employment of the Armed Forces shall be discontinued if the Bundestag or the Bundesrat so demands.

And just once I wish you and the others in the Anti-Israel group here would have the honesty to admit what this conflict was about.

Israel never stated that the kidnapping was the reason for massive military action.

Cabinet authorizes 'severe' response

Israel's cabinet on Wednesday authorized what it called a "severe" response after the cross-border attacks.

A statement issued by Prime Minister Ehud Olmert's cabinet said Israel holds the Lebanese government responsible for the attacks and for the safe return of the abducted soldiers.

"Israel holds the sovereign government of Lebanon as responsible for the action which emanated from its territory and for the safe return of the abducted soldiers."

"Israel must act with appropriate severity in response to this attack and it will do so. Israel will respond in a forthright and severe manner against the perpetrators responsible and will act to prevent future efforts and actions directed against Israel."

Reserve troops called up

In the wake of the attack, IDF Chief of Staff Dan Halutz headed into the military's war room at the Defense Ministry complex in Tel Aviv, Channel 10 television reported.

During consultations, senior IDF officers called for an end to the restraint against Hezbollah and said Lebanon should be made to pay a heavy price.

Halutz ordered the IDF to mobilize a reserve infantry division that was expected to be sent to the northern border. General Staff exercises held over the past several years tested a number of possible responses to kidnapping scenarios.

One of these responses involves the massive incursion of IDF ground forces into Lebanese territory. Military sources told Haaretz that Israel is liable to act with the aim of "altering the rules of the game on the northern front."

The kidnapping triggered a very honoable attempt from Israel to rescue their soldiers--would you wish your German govenrment/military to do any less in that situation?

The massive military action was the direct result of Hezbollah launching thousands of Syrian/Iranian furnished rockets into Israeli civilian neighborhoods.

This is the one fact that you seem to want to ignore.

If Hezbollah kidnapped the soldiers for the express purpose of a prisoner exchange as they claim, and did not harm the soldiers, I would not condone that as civilized behavior, but would not consider it to be outside the bounds of human decency.

One would have to believe that Hezbollah gives a tinker's damn about any human life, however, which they have clearly demonstrated they do not, to believe that was their true motive. It further stretches Hezbollah's credibility that they had their rocket launchers in place and loaded with rockets ready to fire.

I do not see rocket attacks for the express purpose of injuring and killing civilians to be within the bounds of human decency.

The latest reports are that Hezbollah launched up to 4000 rockets in all from mid July to the cease fire. I did not say that they were all launched prior to Israel's counter attack on Lebanon. But the rockets did start hitting Israel before Israel initiated air strikes and continued right up to the cease fire.

The massive military action was the direct result of Hezbollah launching thousands of Syrian/Iranian furnished rockets into Israeli civilian neighborhoods.

Foxfyre wrote:

Israel never stated that the kidnapping was the reason for massive military action.

Quote:

Israel called Wednesday's abductions an act of war, and Maj. Gen. Udi Adam, head of Israel's Northern Command, said he has "comprehensive plans" to battle Hezbollah throughout Lebanon, not just in its southern stronghold.

"This affair is between Israel and the state of Lebanon," Adam said. "Where to attack? Once it is inside Lebanon, everything is legitimate -- not just southern Lebanon, not just the line of Hezbollah posts."

Earlier, Israel's chief of staff, Lt. Gen. Dan Halutz, told Israel's Channel 10, "If the soldiers are not returned, we will turn Lebanon's clock back 20 years."

Source

Foxfyre wrote:

The latest reports are that Hezbollah launched up to 4000 rockets in all from mid July to the cease fire. I did not say that they were all launched prior to Israel's counter attack on Lebanon. But the rockets did start hitting Israel before Israel initiated air strikes and continued right up to the cease fire.

Yes, you said

Foxfyre wrote:

The massive military action was the direct result of Hezbollah launching thousands of Syrian/Iranian furnished rockets into Israeli civilian neighborhoods.

Hez firing thousands of rockets --> Israel launching massive military action

That implies that the thousands of rockets were fired prior to Israel's attack.

Had Hezbollah stopped firing rockets, I am quite sure Israel would have stopped the air strikes targeting the rocket launchers and supply routes for them.

"This affair is between Israel and the state of Lebanon," Adam said. "Where to attack? Once it is inside Lebanon, everything is legitimate -- not just southern Lebanon, not just the line of Hezbollah posts."

Earlier, Israel's chief of staff, Lt. Gen. Dan Halutz, told Israel's Channel 10, "If the soldiers are not returned, we will turn Lebanon's clock back 20 years."

Had Hezbollah stopped firing rockets, I am quite sure Israel would have stopped the air strikes targeting the rocket launchers and supply routes for them.

Foxy, I'm sorry if you think I present your statements out of context. If you can point me to a specific statement that you think would leave an entirely different impression if presented in context, we can go back and I will reevaluate my reply.

However, I usually just answer those parts of your posts I really take issue with..

Well, in the current conflict I haven't seen Hezbollah or Hamas stage any suicide attacks either, if that's your yardstick for acting "within boundaries of human decency". Have you?

Foxfyre wrote:

And just once I wish you and the others in the Anti-Israel group here would have the honesty to admit what this conflict was about.

See? Another statement that really gets me going! What exactly prompts you to state that I am in the "Anti-Israel group?" Did I deny Israel's right to exist? Did I come across as anti-semitic? Heck, did I deny Israel the right to defend itself, or did I not, repeatedly, condemn the Hezbollah (and Hamas, for that matter) attacks on Israel?

Because I advocate that both sides adhere to the Geneva Conventions, does that make me "Anti-Israel?" I'd really like to know how you got to that conclusion. Really.

Foxfyre wrote:

Israel never stated that the kidnapping was the reason for massive military action.

Unbelievable, Foxy! Next sentence, and again something where you just ignore reality! Completely!! Let me post an exerpt of an Ha'aretz article (yes, the Israeli newspaper):

Ha'aretz, on 13/07/2006, wrote:

Cabinet authorizes 'severe' response

Israel's cabinet on Wednesday authorized what it called a "severe" response after the cross-border attacks.

A statement issued by Prime Minister Ehud Olmert's cabinet said Israel holds the Lebanese government responsible for the attacks and for the safe return of the abducted soldiers.

"Israel holds the sovereign government of Lebanon as responsible for the action which emanated from its territory and for the safe return of the abducted soldiers."

"Israel must act with appropriate severity in response to this attack and it will do so. Israel will respond in a forthright and severe manner against the perpetrators responsible and will act to prevent future efforts and actions directed against Israel."

Reserve troops called up

In the wake of the attack, IDF Chief of Staff Dan Halutz headed into the military's war room at the Defense Ministry complex in Tel Aviv, Channel 10 television reported.

During consultations, senior IDF officers called for an end to the restraint against Hezbollah and said Lebanon should be made to pay a heavy price.

Halutz ordered the IDF to mobilize a reserve infantry division that was expected to be sent to the northern border. General Staff exercises held over the past several years tested a number of possible responses to kidnapping scenarios.

One of these responses involves the massive incursion of IDF ground forces into Lebanese territory. Military sources told Haaretz that Israel is liable to act with the aim of "altering the rules of the game on the northern front."

Contrary to what you just said, Israel absolutely stated that the kidnapping was the reason for massive military action! Exactly the opposite of what you said!

Foxfyre wrote:

The kidnapping triggered a very honoable attempt from Israel to rescue their soldiers--would you wish your German govenrment/military to do any less in that situation?

Again, I disagree. It triggered way more than an honorable attempt to rescue hostages. I wouldn't have any problem with that. I have problems with statements like the above one that "Lebanon should be made to pay a heavy price", and for a simple reason - it is nothing but a violation of the Geneva Conventions that Israel has signed!

Foxfyre wrote:

The massive military action was the direct result of Hezbollah launching thousands of Syrian/Iranian furnished rockets into Israeli civilian neighborhoods.

Hezbollah launched thousands of rockets, and then the IDF reacted? Evidence? A link, Foxy? Anything? Please!?

Foxfyre wrote:

This is the one fact that you seem to want to ignore.

Uh.... well... Fact? I can't see any evidence for it, so I believe you just made it up. Call that "ignoring facts", if you want to. Provide evidence for this version of yours, and I promise I won't ignore it.

Foxfyre wrote:

If Hezbollah kidnapped the soldiers for the express purpose of a prisoner exchange as they claim, and did not harm the soldiers, I would not condone that as civilized behavior, but would not consider it to be outside the bounds of human decency.

I'm puzzled why you don't have a problem with the kidnapping. I do, because it's yet another violation of the GC.

Foxfyre wrote:

One would have to believe that Hezbollah gives a tinker's damn about any human life, however, which they have clearly demonstrated they do not, to believe that was their true motive. It further stretches Hezbollah's credibility that they had their rocket launchers in place and loaded with rockets ready to fire.

Okay. And what does the fact that Israel had the IDF in place do to Israel's credibility?

I do not see rocket attacks for the express purpose of injuring and killing civilians to be within the bounds of human decency.

Foxfyre wrote:

Had Hezbollah stopped firing rockets, I am quite sure Israel would have stopped the air strikes targeting the rocket launchers and supply routes for them.

You know what really bothers me about this? You constantly make things up! You say "I'm quite sure Israel would have done this", "I believe Israel would never do that!"

Other posters here provide ample evidence for what Israel has done, and what Israeli officials have said. And often enough it appears that the facts are quite the opposite of what you believe they are.

You brush everything away as "Anti-Israel", and then go on about what you believe Israel is doing. It would be fair if you could at least post some link to an article, a tiny bit of evidence that backs up your statements.

And if anybody tries to tell me that Israel should not have attempted to rescue their soldiers, I would tell them they're dead wrong. And if somebody tries to tell me that Israel should not try to take out Hezbollah's rocket launchers and the supply routes for them when Hezbollah is firing dozens and/or hundreds of rockets daily into Israel, I'll say that somebody is an idiot.