1
   

HEZBOLLAH AND ISRAEL WIDEN THE CONFLICT

 
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Mon 17 Jul, 2006 10:45 am
And we know that peace can only be won
When we blow 'em all to Kingdom Come ! ! !
0 Replies
 
Lash
 
  1  
Reply Mon 17 Jul, 2006 10:50 am
Meanwhile Bush to Blair re Hizbollah: They've got to stop this ****.

Good chuckle.
0 Replies
 
Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Reply Mon 17 Jul, 2006 11:13 am
dyslexia wrote:
Israel's campaign has killed 181 people, all but 13 of them civilians, and wounded more than 500. It has also destroyed much of Lebanon's civilian infrastructure.

Twenty-four Israelis have been killed in the fighting, including 12 civilians hit in rocket attacks.


Not sure why you left out the number of Israelis who have been wounded - 500.

In any case, I'm interested in understanding your thinking as expressed by this post, particularly since it appears to constitute an argument embraced by many other A2Kers.

Are you suggesting that in defending against an external attack, a nation is required to keep a tick sheet of casualties to make certain the level of death and destruction remains fair?
0 Replies
 
princesspupule
 
  1  
Reply Mon 17 Jul, 2006 11:29 am
Washington Post compares Israel's response to Lebanon to India's response to the communter train bombings, then goes on to claim that most gov'ts are waiting for the U.S. to step up and solve the Middle East's problems... Not quite sure what the author makes of Israel's attempt to solve its own problem since that's how I see their response; am I reading bassackwards again? Is Mallaby saying that Israel ought to wait for the U.S., like India did?

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/07/16/AR2006071600702.html

(Just in case the link doesn't work, the article is called The Fighters and the Freeloaders by Sebastian Mallaby)
0 Replies
 
Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Mon 17 Jul, 2006 01:37 pm
Many thanks Set for your brilliant historical analysis/perspective.
0 Replies
 
Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Mon 17 Jul, 2006 01:45 pm
ok I admit I'm a fan. But is there anyone[/i] on a2k who comes close to Set's detailed historical essays...at the drop of a hat, and on just about any[/i] mattter of historical interest?
0 Replies
 
dyslexia
 
  1  
Reply Mon 17 Jul, 2006 02:09 pm
Steve 41oo wrote:
ok I admit I'm a fan. But is there anyone[/i] on a2k who comes close to Set's detailed historical essays...at the drop of a hat, and on just about any[/i] mattter of historical interest?

Yes i am quite sure that Finn or Mysteryman are capable of such, perhaps McG and surely Possum R Fartbubble would surpass Setanta in a blink.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Mon 17 Jul, 2006 02:31 pm
Especially the latter (after having nothing read by this genius for two long days, I'm already on cold turkey).
0 Replies
 
Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Mon 17 Jul, 2006 02:45 pm
I am very much afraid that Mr Dyslexia considerably over estimates the ability of Mr Possum R Fartbubble in that regard.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Mon 17 Jul, 2006 02:56 pm
dyslexia-- I note that Mr. Steve has made an appearance. I would hope that he would contribute towards giving information which bears on the title of this thread. Notive, dyslexia, that Mr. Steve knows nothing what Congress has decided.

He doesn't know what Posner
link
0 Replies
 
freedom4free
 
  1  
Reply Mon 17 Jul, 2006 03:49 pm
Quote:
Syria offers safe haven to US nationals fleeing Lebanon

Jul 17 3:26 PM US/Eastern



The Syrian embassy said it was offering "safe haven" to Americans and other citizens wishing to flee Lebanon, where nearly 200 civilians have been killed during a massive Israeli military bombardment.

"Now, while thousands of United States citizens are stranded in Lebanon attempting to flee the ongoing massacre there, Syria has opened its borders to US citizens as well as citizens of other nationalities," the embassy said in a statement.


"In Syria, US and citizens of other nations find a safe haven from the barbaric and atrocious acts of the Israeli army in Lebanon," it said, adding that already a "huge influx of US and foreign nationals" have entered Syria.

Syria was waiving visa requirements for entry and offering "all sorts of humane assistance to the thousands of refugees coming from Lebanon including medical attention," it said.

"From Syria, US citizens can return safely home."

US military helicopters flew 43 people out of Lebanon Monday and preparations were underway to evacuate potentially thousands of US nationals by air and by sea, officials said.

Other foreign capitals also rushed to evacuate frightened nationals from the escalating conflict, as Israel indicated it may provide windows in its six-day-old aerial bombardment to facilitate safe passage.

http://www.breitbart.com/news/2006/07/17/060717192623.xnq334rc.html


Where is our ally ? why aren't they helping ?

------

Quote:
Russia May Send Navy Ships to Lebanon - Source

http://www.mosnews.com/files/16265/ship.jpg

Created: 17.07.2006 12:21 MSK (GMT +3), Updated: 12:21 MSK, 13 hours 29 minutes ago


MosNews



Russia may send navy ships to the Lebanon coast, the ITAR-TASS news agency reported on Monday quoting a source in the Defense Ministry. The move is being considered as Russia prepares to evacuate its citizens from the conflict zone.

On Sunday Russian Foreign Minister Sergey Lavrov said that Russia is preparing to evacuate its citizens from Lebanon

Lavrov warned that the fighting between Israel and Lebanese guerrillas could ignite a wider conflict, and said the international community had to use all means possible to end the violence immediately.

'If Lebanon explodes, we all know ... how it can resonate across other countries in the region' Lavrov told reporters at the G8 meeting in St. Petersburg.

The United States and France have also begun preparations and Britain dispatched two ships, including an aircraft carrier, to the eastern Mediterranean in apparent preparation for evacuations.

Israel launched air strikes in Lebanon last week after militants captured Israeli soldiers in a cross-border raid. At least 130 people have been killed in the fighting, mostly in Lebanon.

http://www.mosnews.com/news/2006/07/17/lebanonnavy.shtml


Where the F*** is BUsh ?
0 Replies
 
OCCOM BILL
 
  1  
Reply Mon 17 Jul, 2006 08:47 pm
Setanta wrote:
We get this horseshit all the time from the right. Israel creates impossible situations, escalates to full-scale military violence in response to nightmares they have created themselves, and then we are expected to swallow whole drivel about the heroic Israelis defending the world from dangerous fanatics.

Dangerous fanatics created by the dangerous fanatics who run the Isreali governments.
Created themselves? That is simply unfair. Hezbollah, attacked Israel, by way of taking two hostages, knowing full well that Israel would respond. Perhaps they underestimated the response but that in no way negates the fact that they started the current conflict. The escalation, however predictable it may have been, was none the less brought about by Hezbollah actions; not Israel's. While it is reasonable (though not in my eyes) to disagree with Israel's decision to hold the host country of the terrorists feet to the fire over the terrorist's actions, it is not reasonable to suggest Israel started the mess in the first place. That just doesn't follow.

Steve 41oo wrote:
The war could end now if the Israelis wanted it. But they dont. Israel wants the opposite. They want the United States to attack Iran before they get nuclear weapons, and the current situation is their way of engineering such a strike, thus getting the United States to comply with Israeli foreign policy.(See above)
This is just ridiculous. For that to be true; Israel would have had to have engineered the kidnapping of their own soldiers. I don't think anyone believes this, including you. While I would agree that the timing, and perhaps even the totality of their response was reflective of their desire to have the United States take out Iran's nuclear threat in it's infancy, it remains patently dishonest to suggest they engineered it that way. "The war could end now if the Israelis wanted it?" Bunk. Would the United States stop attacking an enemy while Miami was being showered with Missiles day and night? I think not. Nor should they.

The lopsided statistics on casualties is exactly as it should be. To allow it to happen any other way is to invite more and more acts of war in the future. Hezbolla and Hamas, just like Al Qaeda and every other group of terrorists on the globe: need to be taught that unprovoked violence will only make matters worse for them, not better. It is equally important to teach this lesson to the aiders and abettors, and in some cases the voting public. Those in Gaza who voted for Hamas are simply getting what they paid for. Perhaps they'll think twice before repeating that mistake. Those in Lebanon who've wittingly turned the blind eye to Hezbolla, too, are reaping the rewards for that error. To discount their responsibility, is to encourage solidarity with terrorists. This is not the message Israel will send. Nor should it be ours.

Steve 41oo wrote:
Many thanks Set for your brilliant historical analysis/perspective.
Nods agreement on this.

I heard an Israeli today comparing Iran's responsibility to Russia's back in the Cuban Missile Crisis (not unlike I did the other day). He pointed out the difference: Small missiles are already raining down on them... with bigger, more dangerous weapons on standby... while the biggest of the big are being developed. The United States wouldn't tolerate this in her backyard. Nor should Israel... and frankly; the United States shouldn't be tolerating it against one of her allies either. JFK new better. Where is Bush?

The same Israeli gentleman also compared the weak response from the G8 folks to the relative apathy of many nations during WW2... in so far as countries will prefer to stay out of it if they can. But can we really afford to do that? IMHO, the price of removing the Iranian threat grows exponentially every day we wait. Does anyone really think we should wait to face a nuclear Iran, with it's stated intention to wipe Israel from the map and destroy America? I for one, do not.
0 Replies
 
Ticomaya
 
  1  
Reply Mon 17 Jul, 2006 09:06 pm
Steve 41oo wrote:
ok I admit I'm a fan. But is there anyone[/i] on a2k who comes close to Set's detailed historical essays...at the drop of a hat, and on just about any[/i] mattter of historical interest?


Nope ... he's like a savant.
0 Replies
 
Lash
 
  1  
Reply Mon 17 Jul, 2006 09:08 pm
Walter Hinteler wrote:
dyslexia-- I note that Mr. Steve has made an appearance. I would hope that he would contribute towards giving information which bears on the title of this thread. Notive, dyslexia, that Mr. Steve knows nothing what Congress has decided.

He doesn't know what Posner
link
This was pretty good!! Laughing
0 Replies
 
Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Reply Mon 17 Jul, 2006 09:58 pm
princesspupule wrote:
Washington Post compares Israel's response to Lebanon to India's response to the communter train bombings, then goes on to claim that most gov'ts are waiting for the U.S. to step up and solve the Middle East's problems... Not quite sure what the author makes of Israel's attempt to solve its own problem since that's how I see their response; am I reading bassackwards again? Is Mallaby saying that Israel ought to wait for the U.S., like India did?

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/07/16/AR2006071600702.html

(Just in case the link doesn't work, the article is called The Fighters and the Freeloaders by Sebastian Mallaby)


Actually Mallaby is saying that Israel needs to wait, not for the US, but for Russia, China, and to a lesser extent the Western Europeans.

To his credit, he is also saying that Russia, China, and to a lesser extent, Western Europe has to stop sitting back and allowing the US to do all the heavy lifting, and to stop viewing these crisis situations as being in their strategic interests because they cause trouble for the US.

Clearly Mallaby believes that India's and not Israel's was the proper response to a terrorist attack: Take no aggressive action, but seek help from the Great Powers to pressure the state sponsoring the terrorist to get them to stop doing the sh*t.

At least Mallaby is realistic enough to realize that it is only a better approach if all of the powers who have the necessary influence are willing to exert it.

There are, of course, important differences between the Israeli and India experiences.

1) Pakistan is a nuclear power - neither Syria, nor Iran are (yet).
2) Hezbollah does not operate within the borders of its state sponsors as does Lashkar-e-Taiba. An attack against Hezbollah, cannot be taken as an act of war by its state sponsors
3) The Lashkar-e-Taiba attacks while perhaps not singular in nature are not a daily occurrence. While India waits for the US, China and the UN to pressure Pakistan, it is not under daily rocket fire.
4) Lashkar-e-Taiba does not seek the destruction of India, but it's withdrawal from Kasmir. Hezbollah does not seek Israel's withdrawal from disputed territory, it seeks its destruction.
5) The US, the only major power willing to exert influence in these situations (as Mallaby rightly suggests) has influence over Pakistan. It has no influence over Iran and Syria.

It is questionable whether or not India would have taken the same approach if Lashkar-e-Taiba were operating out of Nepal or Bangladesh.

Still, if the diplomatic approach has a real chance of working it is clearly preferable to military action. The key, of course, is whether or not it has any chance of working.

Has the past proven to Israel that it can rely upon Russia, China, the UN or even Western Europe to protect its citizens or ensure its security? Sure it can rely upon the US to a large extent, but the only player in this mess that the US can pressure is Israel. The countries, in the region, with which the US does have influence (Jordan, Egypt, Iraq, and Saudi Arabia) are not involved.

It is easy to say that military action will not succeed in the situation facing Israel, and there is historical evidence to support such an argument, but there is also historical evidence to support the argument that diplomatic efforts will not succeed either. In the meantime Hezbollah fires rockets and, now, missiles at Israeli cities.

If the historical diplomatic "solution" transpires here, there will be a ceasefire, and eventually prisoners will be exchanged. Hezbollah will still exist in strength, will still have it's supply of armaments (which undoubtedly will continue to grow), and will still be a part of the Lebanese government. Within time, there will be another crisis and more deaths.

The UN has already recognized the real solution and issued a resolution to spell it out: Hezbollah must disarm, and the Lebanese Army must move into Southern Lebanon. In other words the continuing threat posed by Hezbollah to Israel, must be eliminated.

Can anyone imagine any circumstances under which Hezbollah will voluntarily disarm and forswear the destruction of Israel? If not, the elimination of the Hezbollah threat to Israel will only be accomplished through force. The Lebanese Army cannot accomplish such a task. Who will? What nation or group of nations are willing to send troops into Lebanon to disarm Hezbollah?

There is one other possible way (and here we return to Mallaby's piece) Iran and Syria might be persuaded to stop financing and arming Hezbollah or to yank back hard on their chains.

But who will do the persuading?

Europe's persuasive powers over Iran are essentially nil, and to the extent it has any real influence over Syria, that is being undermined and replaced by Iran's.

Whether or not Russia and China have any real influence over Iran is questionable, but if they will not use it to keep a country that is closer to their borders than ours from obtaining nuclear weapons, why would we expect them to exert it to protect Isreal's security?

Diplomacy is a whole lot more than getting everyone around a table and helping them to understand each other's points of view. It is pressuring, cajoling, promising, and threatening. In order for Iran and Syria to eliminate the threat that Hezbollah presents to Israel, they must either receive something they want to have or be made to fear that they will lose something they want to keep.

What are we going to give Iran so that they will stop supporting terrorists? Permission to build a nuclear arsenal?

What are we going to make them fear? Again, if the world can't come together to agree on sanctions that are intended to halt nuclear proliferation, why should anyone, let alone Israel, believe the world will do anything to stop Iran from supporting Hezbollah?
0 Replies
 
Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Reply Mon 17 Jul, 2006 10:23 pm
Steve 41oo wrote:
I believe one of the reasons Setanta started this thread is because he immediately saw how this conflict has an alarming potential to spread.

Joe N said

Quote:
We have no influence over Israel.


True since it appears the United States foreign policy is to do whatever Israel decides.

It may appear that way to you Steve, but it's not the case.
Finn said

Quote:
While we may not have direct talks with the Iranian and Syrian governments, there are communication channels.



True. The President of Iran wrote a long and very interesting letter to the President of the United States, which I seem to recall was treated with contempt.

The letter was a stunt by a clown. If either side finds it essential to get a message to the other they can and without media coverage.

Finn also said

Quote:
Thus the only two (theoretically) possible choices Israel has are endure the attacks or take action on their own. From a practical standpoint they have had only one choice.


This is not true. This conflict started through the capture of 3 Israeli soldiers. Israel wants them back. Meanwhile Israel holds over 8000 Palestinian or Arab prisoners. Hezbollah want a prisoner exchange, (its been done before) but the Israelis refuse. Instead they started a war against Lebanon.

The war could end now if the Israelis wanted it. But they don't. Israel wants the opposite. They want the United States to attack Iran before they get nuclear weapons, and the current situation is their way of engineering such a strike, thus getting the United States to comply with Israeli foreign policy.(See above)

What are you suggesting the third choice might be? A prisoner exchange?

It has been done before and it will continue to be done again and again, with all of the attendant bloodshed that leads up to such exchanges, if Hezbollah is permitted to maintain their arms. A prisoner exchange will only put an end to this current battle, it will certainly not end the war, and, in fact, an argument can be made that it will nourish it.

If there had not been terrorist attacks in the past, the only Arabs in Israeli jails would be common criminals.

Your suggestion is simply another version of Israel enduring terrorist attacks.

As for the fantastic notion that this crisis has been engineered by Israel to induce the US to attack Iran...I would only add this to the able response Bill provided: Israel doesn't need the US to attack Iran, and it is far more likely to use military force against Iran as a result of this crisis than is the US. A better conspiracy theory, and one which I'm surprised you didn't come up with is that the US has engineered this crisis in order to enable Israel justification for attacking Iran.
0 Replies
 
McTag
 
  1  
Reply Mon 17 Jul, 2006 10:46 pm
Coming to this thread late...

doubtless Israel is extremely concerned about Iran's nuclear bomb. The way things are, and are becoming more so, Hezbullah would deliver that bomb in Israel as soon as it was operational.
Israel cannot wait and do nothing...but what to do?
This escalation by Israel of a minor incident may be to create a conflict whereby Iran's capacity in this regard might be neutralised.
0 Replies
 
McTag
 
  1  
Reply Mon 17 Jul, 2006 11:02 pm
Examination of Hezbollah from the BBC

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/5188468.stm
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Tue 18 Jul, 2006 12:54 am
http://i2.tinypic.com/20a43dw.jpg
(The Guardian, 18.07.2006, page 25)
0 Replies
 
princesspupule
 
  1  
Reply Tue 18 Jul, 2006 01:16 am
Finn d'Abuzz wrote:
princesspupule wrote:
Washington Post compares Israel's response to Lebanon to India's response to the communter train bombings, then goes on to claim that most gov'ts are waiting for the U.S. to step up and solve the Middle East's problems... Not quite sure what the author makes of Israel's attempt to solve its own problem since that's how I see their response; am I reading bassackwards again? Is Mallaby saying that Israel ought to wait for the U.S., like India did?

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/07/16/AR2006071600702.html

(Just in case the link doesn't work, the article is called The Fighters and the Freeloaders by Sebastian Mallaby)


Actually Mallaby is saying that Israel needs to wait, not for the US, but for Russia, China, and to a lesser extent the Western Europeans.

To his credit, he is also saying that Russia, China, and to a lesser extent, Western Europe has to stop sitting back and allowing the US to do all the heavy lifting, and to stop viewing these crisis situations as being in their strategic interests because they cause trouble for the US.

Clearly Mallaby believes that India's and not Israel's was the proper response to a terrorist attack: Take no aggressive action, but seek help from the Great Powers to pressure the state sponsoring the terrorist to get them to stop doing the sh*t.

At least Mallaby is realistic enough to realize that it is only a better approach if all of the powers who have the necessary influence are willing to exert it.

There are, of course, important differences between the Israeli and India experiences.

1) Pakistan is a nuclear power - neither Syria, nor Iran are (yet).
2) Hezbollah does not operate within the borders of its state sponsors as does Lashkar-e-Taiba. An attack against Hezbollah, cannot be taken as an act of war by its state sponsors
3) The Lashkar-e-Taiba attacks while perhaps not singular in nature are not a daily occurrence. While India waits for the US, China and the UN to pressure Pakistan, it is not under daily rocket fire.
4) Lashkar-e-Taiba does not seek the destruction of India, but it's withdrawal from Kasmir. Hezbollah does not seek Israel's withdrawal from disputed territory, it seeks its destruction.
5) The US, the only major power willing to exert influence in these situations (as Mallaby rightly suggests) has influence over Pakistan. It has no influence over Iran and Syria.

It is questionable whether or not India would have taken the same approach if Lashkar-e-Taiba were operating out of Nepal or Bangladesh.

Still, if the diplomatic approach has a real chance of working it is clearly preferable to military action. The key, of course, is whether or not it has any chance of working.

Has the past proven to Israel that it can rely upon Russia, China, the UN or even Western Europe to protect its citizens or ensure its security? Sure it can rely upon the US to a large extent, but the only player in this mess that the US can pressure is Israel. The countries, in the region, with which the US does have influence (Jordan, Egypt, Iraq, and Saudi Arabia) are not involved.

It is easy to say that military action will not succeed in the situation facing Israel, and there is historical evidence to support such an argument, but there is also historical evidence to support the argument that diplomatic efforts will not succeed either. In the meantime Hezbollah fires rockets and, now, missiles at Israeli cities.

If the historical diplomatic "solution" transpires here, there will be a ceasefire, and eventually prisoners will be exchanged. Hezbollah will still exist in strength, will still have it's supply of armaments (which undoubtedly will continue to grow), and will still be a part of the Lebanese government. Within time, there will be another crisis and more deaths.

The UN has already recognized the real solution and issued a resolution to spell it out: Hezbollah must disarm, and the Lebanese Army must move into Southern Lebanon. In other words the continuing threat posed by Hezbollah to Israel, must be eliminated.

Can anyone imagine any circumstances under which Hezbollah will voluntarily disarm and forswear the destruction of Israel? If not, the elimination of the Hezbollah threat to Israel will only be accomplished through force. The Lebanese Army cannot accomplish such a task. Who will? What nation or group of nations are willing to send troops into Lebanon to disarm Hezbollah?

There is one other possible way (and here we return to Mallaby's piece) Iran and Syria might be persuaded to stop financing and arming Hezbollah or to yank back hard on their chains.

But who will do the persuading?

Europe's persuasive powers over Iran are essentially nil, and to the extent it has any real influence over Syria, that is being undermined and replaced by Iran's.

Whether or not Russia and China have any real influence over Iran is questionable, but if they will not use it to keep a country that is closer to their borders than ours from obtaining nuclear weapons, why would we expect them to exert it to protect Isreal's security?

Diplomacy is a whole lot more than getting everyone around a table and helping them to understand each other's points of view. It is pressuring, cajoling, promising, and threatening. In order for Iran and Syria to eliminate the threat that Hezbollah presents to Israel, they must either receive something they want to have or be made to fear that they will lose something they want to keep.

What are we going to give Iran so that they will stop supporting terrorists? Permission to build a nuclear arsenal?

What are we going to make them fear? Again, if the world can't come together to agree on sanctions that are intended to halt nuclear proliferation, why should anyone, let alone Israel, believe the world will do anything to stop Iran from supporting Hezbollah?


Interesting take on the article... I thought Mallaby was accepting that the other nations were feeloaders and putting the pressure on the U.S., who is expected to come through apparently by all who watch from the sidelines, again... I'm a-thinkin' on the differences you set forth, Finn, many mahalos brah... I don't think any sanctions will make them fear, only full frontal war will possibly do that... Shocked
0 Replies
 
 

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