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HEZBOLLAH AND ISRAEL WIDEN THE CONFLICT

 
 
dlowan
 
  1  
Reply Tue 18 Jul, 2006 02:23 am
Sory if this has been discussed before, (I haven't read the thread yet) but I am trying to figure out Hezbollah's motives.

This is part of a brief BBC analysis:

Anti-Israeli champion

Hezbollah has a number of motives:


It wants to strengthen its position in the Lebanese political arena, and in particular deflect pressure on it to disarm - as a UN resolution, passed in 2004, requires it to do.

It wants to show its support for the Palestinians, and in particular for the Islamist group Hamas, and so present itself as a champion of the anti-Israeli struggle.

Last but not least, it is sending an unmistakable message to the United States on behalf of its regional allies, Syria and Iran - squeeze us, and we will make trouble.
Anger

But, shrewd as he is, the Hezbollah leader Sheikh Hassan Nasrallah is also taking a big gamble.


There is talk of an "axis of power" - Syria, Iran, Hamas and Hezbollah
First, he must calculate the impact on Lebanese opinion.

For the past two years Lebanon has been split into pro-Syrian and anti-Syrian camps.

The anti-Syrian camp is a loose alliance of Christians, Sunnis and Druze.

Prominent among Syria's allies are the two main Shia groups, Hezbollah and Amal.

In the short run, many Lebanese seem to be venting their anger at Israel rather than Hezbollah.

But, depending on how this crisis plays out, that could change.

Hezbollah's critics, inside and outside Lebanon, accuse it of recklessness - and of pursuing a Syrian and Iranian, rather than a Lebanese, agenda.



http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/5188468.stm





Does anyone have comments on that?






I wonder what will happen if Lebanese public opinion eventually turns against Hezbollah over this? They have lived in a war zone for so long....
0 Replies
 
OCCOM BILL
 
  1  
Reply Tue 18 Jul, 2006 03:11 am
When you do read the thread, D, you'll see plenty of opinion on that. And... I would like to think the Lebanese public opinion is already turning. How long can anyone stand and throw **** in a fan blowing on them and not figure it out. Lebanon has been doing relatively well until the crazies started more ****. I can ill imagine the consensus being willing to stand by them further... and if they are... Dog help them... because the fools who do are next...
0 Replies
 
OCCOM BILL
 
  1  
Reply Tue 18 Jul, 2006 03:31 am
McTag wrote:
Coming to this thread late...

doubtless Israel is extremely concerned about Iran's nuclear bomb. The way things are, and are becoming more so, Hezbullah would deliver that bomb in Israel as soon as it was operational.
Israel cannot wait and do nothing...but what to do?
This escalation by Israel of a minor incident may be to create a conflict whereby Iran's capacity in this regard might be neutralised.
Were that exactly so; would you consider that unreasonable? Whereas the United States, as the most powerful nation the world has ever known, can and does afford to appear weak quite frequently... surely you realize Israel could never enjoy such apathy. I think we all know what would happen if Israel laid down to bullying. Stain on the U.S. for not stepping up to the proverbial plate. It sickens me that our mid-term elections will likely happen before we act. Rolling Eyes Kennedy, weak bastard that he was, would have had no trouble selling this to the American public. Damn it Rove; feed Bush.
0 Replies
 
Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Tue 18 Jul, 2006 03:55 am
Steve 41oo wrote:
Quote:
The war could end now if the Israelis wanted it. But they dont. Israel wants the opposite. They want the United States to attack Iran before they get nuclear weapons, and the current situation is their way of engineering such a strike, thus getting the United States to comply with Israeli foreign policy.(See above)


Bill wrote
Quote:
This is just ridiculous. For that to be true; Israel would have had to have engineered the kidnapping of their own soldiers. I don't think anyone believes this, including you. While I would agree that the timing, and perhaps even the totality of their response was reflective of their desire to have the United States take out Iran's nuclear threat in it's infancy, it remains patently dishonest to suggest they engineered it that way. "The war could end now if the Israelis wanted it?" Bunk. Would the United States stop attacking an enemy while Miami was being showered with Missiles day and night? I think not. Nor should they.


So you admit I have a point. Israel does indeed want the US to take out Iran's nascent bomb project (asuming that is they have one). Thats a pretty big thing. You admit the timing is right. I didnt say Israel engineered the kidnapping of their own soldiers, you came to that conclusion from what I said, only to say that I myself could not possibly believe it. War is a dirty business, you cant know what I dont believe. In the great words of the Information Warrior, "I tell the truth because when I lie you will believe it".

I repeat the Israelis could stop bombing Beruit now by stopping bombing Beruit. They demand the Lebanese army take control over Hezbollah, and attack the Lebanese army. The Israelis are driving this to a US/Iran showdown. Sure they want their soldiers back, but are making conditions that they know Hezbollah will not accept. Israel holds thousands of prisoners who they have effectively kidnapped. Why not stop the bombing of Lebanon and do a deal as they have before?

As a point of interest, how many Hezbollah katuyska rockets hit N Israel in the period just prior to this crisis, and how many rocket strikes have there been since Israeli jets started systematically destroying Lebanese infrastructure?
0 Replies
 
Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Tue 18 Jul, 2006 04:25 am
I wrote

Quote:
The President of Iran wrote a long and very interesting letter to the President of the United States, which I seem to recall was treated with contempt.


Finn said

Quote:
The letter was a stunt by a clown.


I suggest you read it.

Finn said

Quote:
.. Israel doesn't need the US to attack Iran..


What does the IDF say about this? Would Israel attack Iran if the Americans were against the idea? And when exactly does a secret strategic political/military plan made by a government become a conspiracy?
0 Replies
 
OCCOM BILL
 
  1  
Reply Tue 18 Jul, 2006 05:11 am
Steve 41oo wrote:
So you admit I have a point. Israel does indeed want the US to take out Iran's nascent bomb project (asuming that is they have one). Thats a pretty big thing. You admit the timing is right.
Yep. That much is pretty obvious (save the "gee, I wonder what they're up to ignorance") It's the blaming Israel for the opportunity that's ridiculous. Idea

Steve 41oo wrote:
I didnt say Israel engineered the kidnapping of their own soldiers, you came to that conclusion from what I said, only to say that I myself could not possibly believe it. War is a dirty business, you cant know what I dont believe. In the great words of the Information Warrior, "I tell the truth because when I lie you will believe it".
If I thought you were as far gone as you're volunteering to have yourself perceived; I wouldn't bother responding to your posts at all (usually).

Steve 41oo wrote:
I repeat the Israelis could stop bombing Beruit now by stopping bombing Beruit. They demand the Lebanese army take control over Hezbollah, and attack the Lebanese army. The Israelis are driving this to a US/Iran showdown. Sure they want their soldiers back, but are making conditions that they know Hezbollah will not accept. Israel holds thousands of prisoners who they have effectively kidnapped. Why not stop the bombing of Lebanon and do a deal as they have before?
Ignorance, idiocy or drunkenness are the only reasonable explanations for such questions.
1. I'll ignore the obvious error in the beginning of your post.
2. The U.S. doesn't need the Israelis to drive this to a US/Iran showdown. Mahmoud Ahmadinejad has already been doing a fine job of that... though I think Bush is dragging his feet, badly.
3. Deal for prisoners each time a hostage is taken? Are you mad? What behavior do you suppose that might encourage?
4. Effectively kidnapped? Dude... Rolling Eyes Why do you suppose they took them prisoner in the first place?

Rewarding bad behavior encourages bad behavior. Where is the fault in that statement?

Steve 41oo wrote:
As a point of interest, how many Hezbollah katuyska rockets hit N Israel in the period just prior to this crisis, and how many rocket strikes have there been since Israeli jets started systematically destroying Lebanese infrastructure?
Just prior? I recall reading about no Hezbollah katuyska rockets hitting Israel in the period just prior to this crisis. Conversely; how many Israeli strikes were there against Lebanon in the period just prior to this crisis? None, right? Who started it again? You're like the drunk that takes a pot shot at a guy who isn't looking, and then calls the cops when the guy drops him.

I just hope Finn is right about Israel having the capability to take out Iran's nuclear sites... but I doubt it. And frankly, they deserve our help anyway.
0 Replies
 
Endymion
 
  1  
Reply Tue 18 Jul, 2006 05:12 am
NOT THE BBC


If like me, you're British - you may like to know that despite the BBC's seemingly spineless hypocracy over Iraq, there are Journalists now calling for the BBC to be called to account for contributing to war-crimes.
After reading their head-lines over the last week, concerning Palestine and the Lebanon, I'm not suprised.

Here's some reading matter on the current situation that comes under-

NOT THE BBC

*********************

The Real Reasons for Israel's Invasion of Gaza: An Experiment in Human Despair



By JONATHAN COOK

Counterpunch

July 5, 2006



One needed only to watch the interview on British television this week with Israel's ambassador to the UK to realise that the Israeli army's tightening of the siege on Gaza, its invasion of the northern parts of the Strip today, and the looming humanitarian crisis across the territory, have nothing to do with the recent capture of an Israeli soldier -- or even the feeble home-made Qassam rockets fired, usually ineffectually, into Israel by Palestinian militants.



Under questioning from presenter Jon Snow of Channel Four news on the reasons behind Israel's bombing of Gaza's only power station -- thereby cutting off electricity to more than half of the Strip's 1.3 million inhabitants for many months ahead, as well as threatening the water supply -- Zvi Ravner denied this action amounted to collective punishment of the civilian population.



Rather, he claimed, the electricity station had to be disabled to prevent the soldier's captors from having the light needed to smuggle him out of Gaza at night. It was left to a bemused Jon Snow to point out that smugglers usually prefer to do their work in the dark and that Israel's actions were more likely to assist his captors than disadvantage them.



The Alice Through the Looking Glass quality of Israeli disinformation over the combined siege and invasion of Gaza -- and its widespread and credulous repetition by the Western media -- is successfully distracting attention from Israel's real goals in this one-sided war of attrition.



The current destruction of Gaza's civilian and administrative infrastructure is reminiscent of the Israeli army's cruel rampages through the streets of West Bank cities in the repeated invasions of 2002 and 2003, and the Jewish settlers' malicious attacks on Palestinian farmers trying to collect their olive harvests.



The relative absence of these horror stories today is simply a reflection of the terrible success of the wall Israel has built across Palestinian farmland and around Palestinian population centres in the West Bank. Settlers no longer need to plunder the olive harvest when the fruit is being left to rot on the trees because farmers can no longer reach their groves.



In the case of the West Bank invasions, Israeli tanks rolled easily into Palestinian cities that had already been isolated and crippled by the stranglehold of checkpoints and roadblocks all over the territority. Israeli heavy armour knocked down electricity pylons as though they were playing a game of ten-pin bowling, snipers shot up the water tanks on people's roofs, soldiers defecated into office photocopiers and the army sought out Palestinian ministries so that their confidential records and documents could be destroyed or stolen.



Notably, only in the warren of alleys in the overcrowded refugee camps of Jenin and Nablus did the army find the going far tougher and suffer relatively high casualties.



Which may explain the military caution that has been exercised by Prime Minister Ehud Olmert in regard to the ground invasion of Gaza. The tiny Strip, besieged on its land borders by the Israeli army behind an electronic fence and on the seafront by the Israeli navy, is one giant, overcrowded refugee camp. The past week has seen Gaza "softened up" with airstrikes on its infrastructure and government ministries. Today, land forces began wreaking more death and destruction -- fourteen killed at the time of writing -- in "mopping up" exercises in the pattern established earlier in the West Bank.



Three long-standing motives are discernible in Israel's current menacing of Gaza.



First, Israel is determined to continue its campaign of impairing the Palestinian Authority's ability to govern. This has nothing to do with the recent election of Hamas to run the Palestinian Authority. Israel's official policy of unilateralism -- ignoring the wishes of the Palestinian people -- began long before, when Yasser Arafat was in charge. It has continued through the presidency of Mahmoud Abbas, a leader who is about as close to a quisling as Israel is likely to find.



Hamas's electoral success has merely supplied Israel with the pretext it needs for launching its invasion and the grounds for demanding international support as it chokes the life out of Gaza. Israel doubtless hopes that at the end of this process it will be left with Abbas, a figurehead president backed into a corner and ready to put his name to whatever agreement Israel imposes.



Second, the attack on Gaza -- as ever -- is partly a distraction from the real battle. It was widely recognised that Ariel Sharon's dogged pursuit of his Gaza disengagement policy last year was designed to free his hand for the annexation of large chunks of a greater prize, the West Bank, and for securing the biggest prize of all, East Jerusalem. Nothing has changed on this front.



As Israel keeps all eyes directed towards the suffering in Gaza, it is starting to make significant moves in the West Bank and Jerusalem.



It is preparing for the much-delayed evacuation of a handful of illegal West Bank hilltop settlements -- known in Israel as "outposts" -- demanded as the first stage of the implementation of the almost-forgotten US-sponsored peace process called the Road Map.



These outposts are tiny, often just a few caravans. It will be much to Israel's advantage if the world fails to examine too closely the miserly act of evacuating these places, which doubtless will later be presented both as Israel having made a huge sacrifice for peace and as having satisfied its side of the Road Map's conditions.



The loss of these outposts and a few larger settlements will pave the way for international acceptance of Olmert's convergence plan, his unilaterally imposed expansion of Israel's borders at the expense of a viable Palestinian state.



Equally significant are the overlooked manoeuvres Israel is undertaking in East Jerusalem as it beats a warpath towards Gaza. Last week Israel stripped four Hamas MPs of their right to live in East Jerusalem, effectively expelling them to the West Bank. It also showed that it could lock up them and dozens of other democratically elected Palestinian representatives with barely a peep from the international community.



In yet another dose of Alice in Wonderland, Israel's policy of making hostages of these MPs was referred to as "arrests" by the Western media. Few bothered to report that the MPs are being deprived of even their most basic rights, such as meeting with their lawyers.



As the four Jerusalem MPs' lawyers have argued, it is a nonsense that Israel allowed these Hamas politicians to stand in the recent elections and now, after their victory, it calls their membership of the party "support for terrorism". It is also a disturbing sign of how easily Israel will be able to begin ethnically cleansing East Jerusalem of its Palestinian inhabitants using the flimsiest of excuses.



And third, and perhaps most significantly of all, Israel is using the siege and invasion of Gaza as a laboratory for testing policies it also intends to apply to the West Bank after convergence. Gazans are the guinea pigs on which Olmert can try out the "extreme action" he has been boasting of.



The destruction of Gaza's power plant and loss of electricity to some 700,000 people; the consequent scarcity of water, build-up of sewage that cannot be disposed of, and inevitable spread of disease; the shortages of fuel and threats to the running of vital services such as hospitals; the sonic booms of Israeli aircraft that terrify Gaza's children and unpredictable air strikes that terrify everyone; the inability of Palestinian officials to run bombed ministries and provide services; the constant threat of invasion by massed Israeli troops on the "border"; and the breakdown of law and order as Fatah and Hamas gunmen are encouraged to turn on each other. All these factors are designed to one end: the slow demand by Palestinians, civilians and militants alike, to clear out of the hell-hole of Gaza.



The traffic through the tunnels that once served Gaza's smugglers will change directions: where once cigarettes and arms came into Gaza, the likelihood is that soon it will be people passing through those underground passages to leave Gaza and seek a life outside.



If this experiment in human despair works in the small Gaza Strip, its lessons can be applied to much bigger effect in the West Bank ghettoes left behind after convergence. This is how ethnic cleansing looks when it is designed not by butchers in uniforms but by technocrats in suits.

***

Jonathan Cook is a British writer and freelance journalist based in Nazareth, Israel.


**********************************************************



Palestine: A war on children
15 Jun 2006
In a cover piece for the New Statesman, John Pilger describes how the US and Israel have finally resolved the problem of the Palestinians, who voted for the "wrong" government. They are to starve them while missiles are fired at their homes and picnickers on a beach.

Arthur Miller wrote, "Few of us can easily surrender our belief that society must somehow make sense. The thought that the state has lost its mind and is punishing so many innocent people is intolerable. And so the evidence has to be internally denied."

Miller's truth was a glimpsed reality on television on 9 June when Israeli warships fired on families picnicking on a Gaza beach, killing seven people, including three children and three generations. What that represents is a final solution, agreed by the United States and Israel, to the problem of the Palestinians. While the Israelis fire missiles at Palestinian picnickers and homes in Gaza and the West Bank, the two governments are to starve them. The victims will be mostly children.

This was approved on 23 May by the US House of Representatives, which voted 361-37 to cut off aid to non-government organisations that run a lifeline to occupied Palestine. Israel is withholding Palestinian revenues and tax receipts amounting to $60m a month. Such collective punishment, identified as a crime against humanity in the Geneva Conventions, evokes the Nazis' strangulation of the Warsaw ghetto and the American economic siege of Iraq in the 1990s. If the perpetrators have lost their minds, as Miller suggested, they appear to understand their barbarism and display their cynicism. "The idea is to put the Palestinians on a diet," joked Dov Weisglass, an adviser to the Israeli prime minister, Ehud Olmert.

This is the price Palestinians must pay for their democratic elections in January. The majority voted for the "wrong" party, Hamas, which the US and Israel, with their inimitable penchant for pot-calling-the-kettle-black, describe as terrorist. However, terrorism is not the reason for starving the Palestinians, whose prime minister, Ismail Haniyeh, had reaffirmed Hamas's commitment to recognise the Jewish state, proposing only that Israel obey international law and respect the borders of 1967. Israel has refused because, with its apartheid wall under construction, its intention is clear: to take over more and more of Palestine, encircling whole villages and eventually Jerusalem.

The reason Israel fears Hamas is that Hamas is unlikely to be a trusted collaborator in subjugating its own people on Israel's behalf. Indeed, the vote for Hamas was actually a vote for peace. Palestinians were fed up with the failures and corruption of the Arafat era. According to the former US president Jimmy Carter, whose Carter Centre verified the Hamas electoral victory, "public opinion polls show that 80 per cent of Palestinians want a peace agreement with Israel".

How ironic this is, considering that the rise of Hamas was due in no small part to the secret support it received from Israel, which, with the US and Britain, wanted Islamists to undermine secular Arabism and its "moderate" dreams of freedom. Hamas refused to play this Machiavellian game and in the face of Israeli assaults maintained a ceasefire for 18 months. The objective of the Israeli attack on the beach at Gaza was clearly to sabotage the ceasefire. This is a time-honoured tactic.

Now, state terror in the form of a medieval siege is to be applied to the most vulnerable. For the Palestinians, a war against their children is hardly new. A 2004 field study published in the British Medical Journal reported that, in the previous four years, "Two-thirds of the 621 children . . . killed [by the Israelis] at checkpoints . . . on the way to school, in their homes, died from small arms fire, directed in over half the cases to the head, neck and chest - the sniper's wound." A quarter of Palestinian infants under the age of five are acutely or chronically malnourished. The Israeli wall "will isolate 97 primary health clinics and 11 hospitals from the populations they serve."

The study described "a man in a now fenced-in village near Qalqilya [who] approached the gate with his seriously ill daughter in his arms and begged the soldiers on duty to let him pass so that he could take her to hospital. The soldiers refused."

Gaza, now sealed like an open prison and terrorised by the sonic boom of Israeli fighter aircraft, has a population of which almost half is under 15. Dr Khalid Dahlan, a psychiatrist who heads a children's community health project, told me, "The statistic I personally find unbearable is that 99.4 per cent of the children we studied suffer trauma . . . 99.2 per cent had their homes bombarded; 97.5 per cent were exposed to tear gas; 96.6 per cent witnessed shooting; a third saw family members or neighbours injured or killed."

These children suffer unrelenting nightmares and "night terrors" and the dichotomy of having to cope with these conditions. On the one hand, they dream about becoming doctors and nurses "so they can help others"; on the other, this is then overtaken by an apocalyptic vision of themselves as the next generation of suicide bombers. They experience this invariably after attacks by the Israelis. For some boys, their heroes are no longer football players, but a confusion of Palestinian "martyrs" and even the enemy, "because Israeli soldiers are the strongest and have Apache gunships".

That these children are now to be punished further may be beyond human comprehension, but there is a logic. Over the years, the Palestinians have avoided falling into the abyss of an all-out civil war, knowing this is what the Israelis want. Destroying their elected government while attempting to build a parallel administration around the collusive Palestinian president, Mahmoud Abbas, may well produce, as the Oxford academic Karma Nabulsi wrote, "a Hobbesian vision of an anarchic society . . . ruled by disparate militias, gangs, religious ideologues and broken into ethnic and religious tribalism, and co-opted collaborationists. Look to the Iraq of today: that is what [Ariel Sharon] had in store for us."

The struggle in Palestine is an American war, waged from America's most heavily armed foreign military base, Israel. In the west, we are conditioned not to think of the Israeli-Palestinian "conflict" in those terms, just as we are conditioned to think of the Israelis as victims, not illegal and brutal occupiers. This is not to underestimate the ruthless initiatives of the Israeli state, but without F-16s and Apaches and billions of American taxpayers' dollars, Israel would have made peace with the Palestinians long ago. Since the Second World War, the US has given Israel some $140bn, much of it as armaments. According to the Congressional Research Service, the same "aid" budget was to include $28m "to help [Palestinian] children deal with the current conflict situation" and to provide "basic first aid". That has now been vetoed.

Karma Nabulsi's comparison with Iraq is apposite, for the same "policy" applies there. The capture of Abu Musab al-Zarqawi was a wonderful media event: what the philosopher Hannah Arendt called "action as propaganda", and having little bearing on reality. The Americans and those who act as their bullhorn have their demon - even a video game of his house being blown up. The truth is that Zarqawi was largely their creation. His apparent killing serves an important propaganda purpose, distracting us in the west from the American goal of converting Iraq, like Palestine, into a powerless society of ethnic and religious tribalism. Death squads, formed and trained by veterans of the CIA's "counter-insurgency" in central America, are critical to this. The Special Police Commandos, a CIA creation led by former senior intelligence officers in Saddam Hussein's Ba'ath Party, are perhaps the most brutal. The Zarqawi killing and the myths about his importance also deflect from routine massacres by US soldiers, such as the one at Haditha. Even the puppet prime minister Nouri al-Maliki complains that murderous behaviour of US troops is "a daily occurrence". As I learned in Vietnam, a form of serial killing, then known officially as "body count", is the way the Americans fight their colonial wars.

This is known as "pacification". The asymmetry of a pacified Iraq and a pacified Palestine is clear. As in Palestine, the war in Iraq is against civilians, mostly children. According to Unicef, Iraq once had one of the highest indicators for the well-being of children. Today, a quarter of children between the ages of six months and five years suffer acute or chronic malnutrition, worse than during the years of sanctions. Poverty and disease have risen with each day of the occupation.

In April, in British-occupied Basra, the European aid agency Saving Children from War reported: "The mortality of young children had increased by 30 per cent compared with the Saddam Hussein era." They die because the hospitals have no ventilators and the water supply, which the British were meant to have fixed, is more polluted than ever. Children fall victim to unexploded US and British cluster bombs. They play in areas contaminated by depleted uranium; by contrast, British army survey teams venture there only in full-body radiation suits, face masks and gloves. Unlike the children they came to "liberate", British troops are given what the Ministry of Defence calls "full biological testing".

Was Arthur Miller right? Do we "internally deny" all this, or do we listen to distant voices? On my last trip to Palestine, I was rewarded, on leaving Gaza, with a spectacle of Palestinian flags fluttering from inside the walled compounds. Children are responsible for this. No one tells them to do it. They make flagpoles out of sticks tied together, and one or two climb on to a wall and hold the flag between them, silently. They do it, believing they will tell the world.

***
John Pilger is a world-renowned journalist, author and documentary filmmaker, who began his career in 1958 in his homeland, Australia, before moving to London in the 1960s.

He regards eye-witness as the essence of good journalism.

***********************************************


The world turned upside down
Lindsey German
Monday, July 17, 2006

Are we in the world of Alice Through the Looking Glass or 1984? I can't quite believe how bad are the responses to Israel's attack on Lebanon, and wonder why we have entered a world where lies are truth, where everything is the opposite of what it should be.

My increasing sense of disbelief began with Tony Blair's statement a couple of weeks ago that the Muslim community in Britain had grievances against the West which were 'false'. You might not agree with those grievances, but they are based on fact: Britain did invade Afghanistan and Iraq; the situation does go from bad to worse in both countries; Britain does back Israel as a key ally in the Middle East and does little to help the plight of the Palestinians; and Britain does support some of the worst dictatorships in the Middle East.

The feeling has come back to me in recent days. The BBC news website reports today that Tony Blair and UN secretary general Kofi Annan have called for an international force (aka Britain and the US) to be sent to Lebanon..to stop attacks on Israel. Tony Blair explained this is to 'stop the bombardment coming over into Israel and therefore gives Israel a reason to stop its attacks on Hezbollah'.

Sorry? Hezbollah kidnapped 2 Israeli soldiers and Israel responded by bombing Lebanon, blockading its ports and airports, bombing its roads, and killing so far more than 130 Lebanese civilians.

Yet the main news channels in Britain led yesterday on 8 Israelis killed by a rocket in Haifa, only then going on to mention 16 Lebanese dead in Tyre, bombing of civilian convoys and the fact that Lebanese/Israeli deaths are running at a ratio of more than 5:1.

This painting of Hezbollah as the aggressors against 'plucky little Israel' is sickening enough. But then there's the accusation that Iran is arming Hezbollah. And who's arming Israel, the only nuclear power in the Middle East and the one possessed of the largest and most deadly arsenal? Israel is the biggest recipient of US military aid, and the only state in the world that can buy arms directly from US arms corporations without the oversight of the US government.

No wonder then that the G8 gathering of the world's largest powers meeting in St Petersburg issued a statement effectively allowing Israel to continue its state terror against its northern neighbour. It contains the following: 'The immediate crisis results from efforts by extremist forces to destabilise the region and to frustrate the aspirations of the Palestinian, Israeli and Lebanese people for democracy and peace.'

Well, the Palestinians' aspiration for democracy and peace was expressed through the democratic election of a Hamas government earlier this year, which the Israelis are trying to destroy. Hezbollah is in the Lebanese government and has mass support. So who exactly is attacking democracy?

We're in a new phase now with this war. As one person put it at our Stop the War steering committee on Saturday, the attack on Iran has already begun. That's why Israel, the US and Britain are so keen to go for Hezbollah, because it makes it easier for them to attack Iran. The threat as they see it of a greater Iran stems from the failure of the occupation of Iraq. And we may be witnessing the changeover from the main reason for war being Iran's nuclear capability to the main reason being its role in terrorism.

Don't expect anything good.
***

Lindsey German
Convenor, Stop the War Coalition

**********************************************************

http://www.jkcook.net/Articles2/0254.htm#Top
http://www.johnpilger.com/page.asp?partid=401
http://www.stopwar.org.uk/lindsey/



One thing stands out for me:

"Since the Second World War, the US has given Israel some $140bn, much of it as armaments."
John Pilger


**********************************

I posted this up to try and put some balance in this thread. Ignore or read. Reply if you wish - but don't expect any answers from me personally - I know only too well how very little most people understand or even care about what war does to both the victim and the aggressor.
One thing I do believe....

Iran is surrounded and being provoked. They are a dangerous nation to be inciting - and Bush is a dangerous man for edging the west towards a show down.
WWIII is looming for us all - if we don't stop this esculation - and the media will be as accountable as those two criminals Bush and Blair.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Tue 18 Jul, 2006 05:14 am
Frm the Wrap, one of Guardian Unlimited's paid-for services.

Quote:
Ha'aretz, the moderate Israeli newspaper published in Tel Aviv, reports today that the Israeli offensive will end on Thursday and Friday and will be followed by Israeli demands for "disarmament arrangements" for Hizbullah.

There will be no return to the previous status quo in southern Lebanon because of fears Hizbullah would simply use a ceasefire to rebuild its capabilities, the newspaper says, citing political sources in Jerusalem.

Many of today's newspapers believe Israel is trying to do as much damage as possible to Hizbullah before international pressure to stop the bombing becomes too much. Last night, Ehud Olmert made a speech vowing to continue the offensive until the threat of Hizbullah was destroyed. "We will fight with all the strength we are capable of," the Israeli PM said.

The Times says the crucial moment will be when the US is unable to resist international pressure for the offensive to stop, and the Guardian notes that Israel always "fights its wars against the clock".

The Guardian criticises the failure of the "floundering" international community to call with a single voice for a halt to the Israeli bombing. It notes that criticism of the Israeli air strikes in an EU statement was diluted after pressure from Germany and Britain, Israel's strongest EU allies. This followed the earlier failure of leaders at the G8 summit to step in, the paper says. The Guardian's leader says: "Europe's voice has once again been muted and ineffective in responding to an international crisis."

...

The newspapers gleefully reproduce a transcript of a private conversation between Mr Blair and Mr Bush which was picked up by a microphone they did not realise was on during an informal moment at the G8 in St Petersburg.

Mr Bush and Mr Blair blame Iran and Syria for encouraging Hizbullah and single out Bashir Assad, the Syrian president, as the figure stoking violence in the region because he wants to block the introduction of democracy. Mr Bush hails Mr Blair with the words "Yo Blair!" and seems to be becoming ever more like his Dead Ringers alter ego, the Guardian's Jonathan Freedland writes.

Mr Bush says "they", which is thought to mean Russia, had to put pressure on Syria to "stop this ****". He also says that the US secretary of state, Condoleezza Rice, will go to the region soon. The Guardian's leader notes that Madeleine Albright, one of Ms Rice's predecessors, was not alone in wondering why Ms Rice was not already there, with the suspicion that Israel is being given more time by the US to fulfill its military objectives first.

It is generally agreed that the conversation confirms Mr Blair's subordinate position in his relationship with Mr Bush, and some describe the exchange - particularly his casually dismissed offer to go to the region - as somewhat humiliating.
0 Replies
 
OCCOM BILL
 
  1  
Reply Tue 18 Jul, 2006 05:31 am
ENDYMION, get a grip. How many days went by since Israel gave back Gaza that they weren't subject to attacks from Gaza? Yep, none. This one's a lot easier than the Iranian… I mean Syrian… I mean Lebanese… I mean Hezbollah attacks. Rolling Eyes Sell your anti-Semite-BS elsewhere. We're not buying here.

Walter, I can't buy that either. Blair is twice the man Bush is. Is it too much to accept that he just agrees with him?
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Tue 18 Jul, 2006 05:40 am
An entirely sensible idea from Ari Shavit of Ha'aretz...
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/objects/pages/PrintArticleEn.jhtml?itemNo=739075
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Tue 18 Jul, 2006 05:45 am
Quote:
What British Jews think of Israel
For Britain's 267,000 Jews, liberal by instinct and socially progressive, Israel represents their greatest hope and, at times, their deepest shame. The nation that was forged in the aftermath of the Holocaust was once regarded as a bold experiment in democracy and collective living. Now it stands accused of the same acts of terror with which it condemns its enemies. Linda Grant asks the children of the Diaspora how they see the Promised Land
http://news.independent.co.uk/uk/this_britain/article1183428.ece
0 Replies
 
Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Tue 18 Jul, 2006 06:09 am
Its very tiresome when charges of ignorance drunkeness stupidity or anti semitism are banded about in an effort to disguise incomprehension.

You clearly want Iran attacked as soon as possible. Fine Bill, go ahead. Have ago yourself, but read this first

http://www.newyorker.com/printables/fact/060710fa_fact
0 Replies
 
freedom4free
 
  1  
Reply Tue 18 Jul, 2006 06:16 am
OCCOM BILL

Quote:
Sell your anti-Semite-BS elsewhere.


I was waiting for this...it's their best defence.

They usually choose 1 of the 3 cards.

1.) The Holocaust card.
2.) The Anti-Semitism card.
3.) The Victim card.

And they nearly always win the debate.

Wish i had a card. Crying or Very sad
0 Replies
 
Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Tue 18 Jul, 2006 06:35 am
freedom4free wrote:
OCCOM BILL

Quote:
Sell your anti-Semite-BS elsewhere.


I was waiting for this...it's their best defence.

They usually choose 1 of the 3 cards.

1.) The Holocaust card.
2.) The Anti-Semitism card.
3.) The Victim card.

And they nearly always win the debate.

Wish i had a card. Crying or Very sad
here, have one

http://www.jewsagainstzionism.com/
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Tue 18 Jul, 2006 06:39 am
OCCOM BILL wrote:
Created themselves? That is simply unfair. Hezbollah, attacked Israel, by way of taking two hostages, knowing full well that Israel would respond. Perhaps they underestimated the response but that in no way negates the fact that they started the current conflict. The escalation, however predictable it may have been, was none the less brought about by Hezbollah actions; not Israel's. While it is reasonable (though not in my eyes) to disagree with Israel's decision to hold the host country of the terrorists feet to the fire over the terrorist's actions, it is not reasonable to suggest Israel started the mess in the first place. That just doesn't follow.


Believe it or not, events do not occur randomly in a contextual vacuum. After the 1967 war, the Palestinians became refugees in the lands of Israels neighbors. Most of them went to Jordan. King Hussein, not at all unreasonably, did not intend to have an armed, extra-national force in his territory. So, Jordanian security forces and their military began rounding up and expelling the leaders of Palestinian paramilitary groups--this was known as Black September to the Palestinians. The actual process continued until the summer of 1971, and as Syria did not intend to have them either, and was even more militarily effective than Jordan, and the Ba'athist Party there had more a more effective security apparatus, they were passed on to the Lebanon. In the process, the "law of unitended consequences" kicked in with a vengeance, and the PLO emerged as the most powerful and influential of the Palestinian groups.

From the Lebanon, the PLO launched missile attacks on northern Israel. Isreal therefore invaded south Lebanon. The Lebanese are in fact the opposite of extremists. The Christian Maronites in the Lebanon had set up a crypto-fascist party in the 1930s. They ruled the nation through minority government. This is not unusual in the middle east--Syria's ruling faction, the Ba'athists grew out of the Syrian Social Nationalist Party (SSNP), which has always been controlled by tribal minorities (minority in the sense of not representing all Sunni tribes); the Ba'athists in Iraq were always controlled by a tribal minority from within the Sunni Arabs, who are themselves a minority in that nation, and Saddam Hussein was just the last successful minority tribal leader. The SSNP also successfully organized among Muslims in the Lebanon, and they were largely a minority tribal power, as Sunnis are a distinct minority within the Lebanon, and Shi'ites did not participate in large numbers.

Therefore, Lebanon was a successful coalition of minority groups which managed to run the nation without violence or violent contention for power. The PLO became a ringer in the mix, as neither the Lebanese military nor the security services were prepared to deal with them, especially as the explulsion from Jordan had been cleverly used by Yasir Arafat and the PLO to build their power base among the Palestinians. Most groups, but particularly the Maronites, had small militias. When the PLO began to attack Israel, the militias were not prepared to deal with the PLO, either, and Israel invaded. Syria then invaded in 1975, ironically, to prop up the Maronites, as that Christian organization controlled a government which had always been friendly toward Syria. But the Maronites were increasingly a target of the PLO, and the Israeli invasion completely destabilized the complex web of alliance and compromise which had made government possible within what was politically and religiously a fragmented society.

The civil war grew deeper, the Lebanese government and military ceased to exist as effective organizations, and the Lebanon became no more than a region (no longer a nation), with the east controlled by Syria, the south controlled by Israel, and Beirut controlled by the PLO, or nobody at all. The arrival of foreign troops, including American Marines put the cap on the destruction of the Lebanon as a nation. When the civil war began, the Muslims of the Lebanon had almost no effective militia, and to avoid the impositions of the PLO, the Israelis and the Sunni Syrians (remember that most Lebanese Muslims are Shi'ites, in sufficient numbers that the Shi'ites are the largest single confessional group in the nation as a whole), the Muslims were forced to create militias such as the Maronites had long maintained in order to protect their respective "turfs."

The Syrians became bereft of clients with the collapse of the Maronite militia. Soon, the United States Navy was shelling Syrian positions, and although no such plans existed, it was widely believed in Syria that the United States would attack the Syrians directly. Even though the Persians were still American allies at the start of the civil war in the Lebanon, by the time Reagan sent troops to the Lebanon, the revolution had taken place in Iran, and the Revolutionary Guards were (until destroyed in the Iran-Iraq War) the most potent force among the Persians. In 1982, more than eight years after the Israeli invasion of the Lebanon, the Revolutionary Guard helped to organize Shi'ites in the Lebanon, and to fund them--this was the birth of Hezbollah. Eventually, because Hezbollah was based in south Beirut and the south coast, Syria negotiated and made Hezbollah a client of theirs, which they badly needed, and they were able to swallow their contempt for Shi'ite Muslims.

Had there been no civil war and no Israeli invasion, there would have been no Hezbollah, which did not come into being until 1982. Isreal's attempt to destroy the PLO not only failed, their atrocities in Palestinian refugee camps so alienated international support, that the eventual result of was the return of the Palestinians and Yasir Arafat to Israel. The corruption and inefficiency of the Palestinian Authority provided a focus for the alliance of the surviving splinter groups who had once vied for power among the Palestinians with the PLO, and the more militant of those groups formed Hamas.

Now Israel has apparently forgotten whatever lessons they might have taken from their failed attempt to destroy the PLO. By attacking Gaza, the Hamas stronghold, they are solidifying Palestinian support for Hamas. By attacking the Lebanon, and punishing the entire population for the actions of Hezbollah, they are legitimizing what has remained a fringe group among the Lebanese. Consider if you will that although 40% of the population are Shi'ite, Hezbollah only managed to take less than 10% of the seats in the Lebanese Parliament. Even among Lebanese Shi'ites, the urge to compromise, to get along, has been strong enough that Hezbollah could never command the support of the entirety of the group they purported to represent. Attacking all of the Lebanon indiscriminately will likely have the same effect on Hezbollah that it once had on the PLO--it will increase their support and their influence.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Tue 18 Jul, 2006 06:51 am
Let me put it in simple terms, once again, as it doesn't seem to sink in with everyone. No Israeli invasion of the Lebanon, no civil war; no civil war, no Hezbollah.

Knowledgable people will point out that militias were already at war in the Lebanon in 1975. This is true, but the appeal of the Maronite dominated government resulted in the Syrian invasion, and the situation had quieted down, when the PLO began its attacks. Operation Litani, the Israeli invasion, with its concommitant attempt to destroy the PLO, destabilized the fragile nation, forced the collapse of the government, and lead to full-blown civil war in a nation which had managed to avoid that previously.

Hezbollah came into existence in 1982, thanks largely to Persians in the Revolutionary Guard. When Israel invaded the Lebanon, Iran was still an ally of the United States, and controlled by the Shah. Without the Isreali invasion, and without the renewal of the civil war, the Persians would have had no reason and little success in organizing a "terrorist" group in the Lebanon. Even with the civil war, Hezbollah never commanded the support of the majority of the Lebanese Shi'ites, whom they claim to represent.
0 Replies
 
McTag
 
  1  
Reply Tue 18 Jul, 2006 01:45 pm
Israel's Premier links Hizbollah action with Iranian nuclear programme.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/5192990.stm

Well, whooda thunk it.

I consider, Israel's response definitely is linked.
0 Replies
 
McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Tue 18 Jul, 2006 02:07 pm
Setanta wrote:
Let me put it in simple terms, once again, as it doesn't seem to sink in with everyone. No Israeli invasion of the Lebanon, no civil war; no civil war, no Hezbollah.


That's hardly truthful or simple. No attacks on Israel, No Israeli invasion; No Israeli invasion of Lebanon, no civil war; no civil war, no Hezbollah.

We can trace this all the way back to the creation of Israel and those that wish to see israel no longer exist.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Tue 18 Jul, 2006 02:48 pm
Whereas i have no reason to wish that Israel would go away, or cease to exist--certainly, all of this can be traced back to the foundation of the state of Israel in 1948. Most specifically, however, was the 1967 war, after which Israel though it was a good idea (and as a nation, the Israelis seem only rarely to have good ideas) to expell the Palestinians. The most of them went to Jordan, and from there, were expelled again, and ended up in the Lebanon.

When Isreal was "attacked" from the Lebanon, they were attacked, in a puny fashion, by the PLO--not by the Lebanon. Then, as now, they decided to punish the entire Lebanese nation. Then, the eventual result was the failure of their military option, and the eventual return of the Palestinians to their homeland--the land in which they had been born. In 1967, they took the west bank of the River Jordan. They later agreed to make that a Palestinian homeland, and failed to keep their promise--leading to years of strife and helping to create the Intifada. They took the Golan Heights from Syria, have never returned it, and therefore have absolutely no leverage with the Syrians, and cannot even begin diplomatic talks with them on any topic, because the first thing the Syrians will want to discuss (quite reasonably) is the Golan Heights. They took the Gaza Strip and the Sinai from Egypt, and the eventual result was that they were forced to give it back to secure peace and security with their most populous neighbor. They did not keep their promises in Gaza, either, helping to create the Intifada.

It is entirely possible to accept that the nation of Israel exists without signing on to any of the long list of monumentally stupid policies which they have inflicted upon the Palestinians and their neighbors. Israel is Israel's worst enemy.
0 Replies
 
McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Tue 18 Jul, 2006 03:01 pm
Setanta wrote:
Whereas i have no reason to wish that Israel would go away, or cease to exist--certainly, all of this can be traced back to the foundation of the state of Israel in 1948. Most specifically, however, was the 1967 war, after which Israel though it was a good idea (and as a nation, the Israelis seem only rarely to have good ideas) to expell the Palestinians. The most of them went to Jordan, and from there, were expelled again, and ended up in the Lebanon.

When Isreal was "attacked" from the Lebanon, they were attacked, in a puny fashion, by the PLO--not by the Lebanon. Then, as now, they decided to punish the entire Lebanese nation. Then, the eventual result was the failure of their military option, and the eventual return of the Palestinians to their homeland--the land in which they had been born. In 1967, they took the west bank of the River Jordan. They later agreed to make that a Palestinian homeland, and failed to keep their promise--leading to years of strife and helping to create the Intifada. They took the Golan Heights from Syria, have never returned it, and therefore have absolutely no leverage with the Syrians, and cannot even begin diplomatic talks with them on any topic, because the first thing the Syrians will want to discuss (quite reasonably) is the Golan Heights. They took the Gaza Strip and the Sinai from Egypt, and the eventual result was that they were forced to give it back to secure peace and security with their most populous neighbor. They did not keep their promises in Gaza, either, helping to create the Intifada.

It is entirely possible to accept that the nation of Israel exists without signing on to any of the long list of monumentally stupid policies which they have inflicted upon the Palestinians and their neighbors. Israel is Israel's worst enemy.


Israel has looked after the interests of it's population. That is the purpose of a nation, is it not? Terrorists have been gunning for Israel since it's creation. No amount of appeasement or giving back of land will stop the muslim extremists short of the eradication of Israel. If the surrounding countries are powerless to stop these extremist groups from attacking Israel, then ultimately it is up to Israel then.

If Syria, Iran, Lebanon, Egypt and Palestine wish for peace, then they must put internal pressure on those extremist groups to cease their actions against Israel. Until such time that happens, Israel must use whatever means necessary to secure it's citizens.
0 Replies
 
 

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