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HEZBOLLAH AND ISRAEL WIDEN THE CONFLICT

 
 
Lash
 
  1  
Reply Fri 14 Jul, 2006 05:45 pm
I am thankful they're giving civilians a chance to get out of Lebanon.

In an interview on NPR today, Iran is highly suspected of being the "master" behind the Hezbollah "puppet." I heard a few talking heads (can't remember names) say that the US and Israel are sending back-channel signals to Iran that they're next if they don't stop bankrolling Hezbollah.


I don't know if there are any facts to back up those interviews, though.
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Parker Cross
 
  1  
Reply Fri 14 Jul, 2006 06:43 pm
Setanta wrote:
One of the things that leads me to believe this was their immediate response that the nation of Lebanon is responsible for the kidnapped soldiers, and that they considered this "an act of war." The Lebanon was not responsible, and i think it is being held responsible by Isreal as a pretext to justify eventual invasion. The stronghold of Hezbollah is the southern neighborhoods and suburbs of Beirut. The Isrealis will need eventually to attack those areas more effectively than they have done with air strikes and naval shelling if they are to neutralize Hesbollah. It is significant that they have attacked those areas, and i suspect they may eventually attempt to invade and drive on southern Beirut--if they think the people of Isreal will accept the contention that it is necessary.


Setanta, you don't think Lebanon was responsible? Hezbollah is an active participant in that government. Even though the Prime Minister's office is, nominally, controlled by moderates that still signifies that Hezbollah - the terrorist organization - is part of the Lebanese government, hence their responsibility. If you see it otherwise, you would have to be purposely ignoring that fact.
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OCCOM BILL
 
  1  
Reply Fri 14 Jul, 2006 07:38 pm
Lash wrote:
I am thankful they're giving civilians a chance to get out of Lebanon.

In an interview on NPR today, Iran is highly suspected of being the "master" behind the Hezbollah "puppet." I heard a few talking heads (can't remember names) say that the US and Israel are sending back-channel signals to Iran that they're next if they don't stop bankrolling Hezbollah.


I don't know if there are any facts to back up those interviews, though.

Kind of hard not to consider Hezbolla anything but a puppet of Iran when you consider they were formed by the Iranian Revolutionary Guard, are believed to recieve several million dollars a month in financing from Iran to this day, and Hizballah's commander for southern Lebanon, Sheikh Nabil Qaouk has portraits of Iran's leaders, Khomeini and Khamenei hanging on his walls. I don't think the link could get any clearer.

The only thing left is to stop distinguishing "Countries who support terrorists from the terrorists themselves". I bet the guys and gals in Iraq would love to have such clearly defined enemies... and enemies they are.

The wrongest thing about punishing Beirut is that it's to the exclusion of punishing Damascus and Tehran… who are likely even more culpable.
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Lash
 
  1  
Reply Fri 14 Jul, 2006 08:01 pm
Thanks, Bill. I didn't have information about the depth of the Iran connection.

I wonder how far the tentacles of the war will spread.
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Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Reply Sat 15 Jul, 2006 12:20 am
Setanta wrote:
I think the Isrealis intend now what they intended with their invasion of the Lebanon in 1975. Then, they wanted to neutralize the PLO. I'd say that now, they have invaded and continue to attack Gaza on the pretext conveniently provided by the kidnapping of the Israeli soldier, and that their object is the destruction of Hamas as an effective military force.

I suspect they intend the same for Hezbollah in the Lebanon. Note that this means that i don't see any deep-laid conspiracies here--the Israelis can hardly be reasonably accused of engineering these two incidents of kidnapping. But i think they are opportunistically using these incidents to justify attacks on first Hamas, and then Hezbollah. Attacking civilian areas will never get nut-case terrorists to release hostages, and i have every reason to assume that the Isrealis do know this. But this situation provides them a causus belli for attacking Hezbollah, just as the earlier incident was an excuse to attack Hamas in Gaza (the area of their largest support).

One of the things that leads me to believe this was their immediate response that the nation of Lebanon is responsible for the kidnapped soldiers, and that they considered this "an act of war." The Lebanon was not responsible, and i think it is being held responsible by Isreal as a pretext to justify eventual invasion. The stronghold of Hezbollah is the southern neighborhoods and suburbs of Beirut. The Isrealis will need eventually to attack those areas more effectively than they have done with air strikes and naval shelling if they are to neutralize Hesbollah. It is significant that they have attacked those areas, and i suspect they may eventually attempt to invade and drive on southern Beirut--if they think the people of Isreal will accept the contention that it is necessary.


Since it is extremely difficult for me to believe that two incidents involving the kidnapping of Israeli soldiers was the work of rogue terrorists within Hamas and Hesbollah, then I am left with two possible explanations:

1) The leaders of Hamas and Hesbollah (and their masters in Syria and Iran ) are stupider than I ever would have imagined. Even if there was some expectation that Israel might capitulate in some way to secure the release of their soldier from Hamas, it would have been readily apparent to Hezbollah that this tactic wasn't working and repeating it would be idiocy. I don't see this explanation being credible

2) The leaders of Hamas and Hesbollah (and their masters in Syria and Iran) want to draw Israel into a war, and they are confident that they can not only survive any military efforts (opportunistic or otherwise) by Israel to crush them once and for all, but can actually somehow profit from them.

It makes perfect sense for Israel to hold Lebanon responsible for the Hesbollah attacks, just as it makes perfect sense for them to hold the PLA responsible for the Hamas attacks.

If a well organized and powerful political organization located in the US repeatedly fired rockets into towns and cities in Canada or Mexico, and their members made cross border raids to kill and kidnap Canadian and Mexican soldiers, the world would hold the US government responsible, and rightly so.

If members of such organizations held seats in congress, the argument for US responsibility would be that much louder and justified, and if one organization actually held a majority in congress and held the executive branch, the argument would be unassailable.

Be that as it may, it makes strategic sense to hold Lebanon responsible. For years, the government has done nothing to wrest control of the South from Hezbollah nor to see them disarmed. True that there is a new Lebanon since the withdrawal of Syria, but they continued to tolerate Hezbollah. They may not have been in a position of enough strength to take Hezbollah on, but given the history of the region I cannot fault Israel for refusing to rely on a fledgling, quasi-democratic Lebanese government to ever rid the country of Hezbollah.

Presumably they are supposed to endure the attacks of Hezbollah without putting any stress on the Lebanese government so that government can survive and mature into one which can take care of Hezbollah for them. Not a money play.

It's interesting that so many of the people who are now calling for restraint by Israel for the very reason of allowing the Lebanese government to gain strength are so pessimistic about the chances of a nascent democracy in Iraq surviving and growing despite the direct and massive support of the most powerful nation on earth.

If Iraq's chances are so poor, why should Israel count on Lebanon's, when the latter hasn't a fraction of the support Iraq has?

It is far too coincidental that the Hezbollah attacks came precisely when Iran was called upon to respond to the West's proposal for resolving the Iranian nuclear issues to suggest that there is not deliberate linkage.

The question remains, is this the primary reason for Iran setting loose the Hezbollah hounds on Israel, or are they trying to spark a much great conflagration in the region? Are the mullahs hoping that Israel will do more than simply buzz Assad's house?

Are they competing with North Korea for our attention and the attention of the world?

All of the crisis in this region steady escalate before they come close to anything approaching resolution, and I have an unsettling feeling that this one is going to get much much worse before it gets better.
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OCCOM BILL
 
  1  
Reply Sat 15 Jul, 2006 04:27 am
Finn d'Abuzz... <nods>

Finn d'Abuzz wrote:
Are they competing with North Korea for our attention and the attention of the world?
My only hope is that the U.S. has the good sense to send the message 'be careful what you wish for". Not unlike Kennedy's "any nuclear missile launched from Cuba against any nation in the Western Hemisphere is an attack by the Soviet Union on the United States, requiring a full retaliatory response against the Soviet Union."

I honestly think the longer we wait to make such a serious threat, the worse the threats against us will become. Ahmadinejad (or more accurately, his puppeteers) is calling these shots, surely.

Lash, I forgot to remind you, Ahmadinejad himself was part of the "Iranian Revolutionary Guard" and many believe him to have been among the American Hostage Takers in 1979. Dude's tight with the Supreme A-hole, too.

Worse, all evidence suggests the man's as brilliant as he is a puppet of the Mullahs.

Interesting times indeed.
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Joe Nation
 
  1  
Reply Sat 15 Jul, 2006 04:45 am
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msolga
 
  1  
Reply Sat 15 Jul, 2006 04:56 am
A very interesting & informative article, Joe N. Thanks for posting.
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Miller
 
  1  
Reply Sat 15 Jul, 2006 05:47 am
Steve 41oo wrote:
It could. The Israelis have been severely embarrassed. The stock market lost 5%. The new pm is not a military man and is desperate not to appear weak. I wouldnt be at all surprised to see Israeli jets bombing Damascus and Lebanon.


I hope that they aren't underestimating Iran. Crying or Very sad
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Miller
 
  1  
Reply Sat 15 Jul, 2006 05:52 am
freedom4free wrote:
If this military conflict escalates into a wider war, Israel will fight to the last American.


American? Or, American dollar?
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Miller
 
  1  
Reply Sat 15 Jul, 2006 05:54 am
OCCOM BILL wrote:
bm


So, wash your face!
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Miller
 
  1  
Reply Sat 15 Jul, 2006 05:55 am
dlowan wrote:
Back to the **** future.


Again.


Are there subways in Israel?
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Miller
 
  1  
Reply Sat 15 Jul, 2006 05:58 am
djjd62 wrote:
i believe this was inevitable, and i hope that israel has the conviction to see the job through


And without American dollars or American blood!
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Miller
 
  1  
Reply Sat 15 Jul, 2006 06:01 am
Lash wrote:


I wonder how far the tentacles of the war will spread.


Good idea to avoid NYCity subways and as a matter avoid NY completely.
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Miller
 
  1  
Reply Sat 15 Jul, 2006 06:02 am
msolga wrote:
A very interesting & informative article, Joe N. Thanks for posting.

bm
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JPB
 
  1  
Reply Sat 15 Jul, 2006 06:13 am
Quote:


Call me a skeptic.
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Miller
 
  1  
Reply Sat 15 Jul, 2006 06:18 am
J_B wrote:
Quote:


Call me a skeptic.


If you insist!
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Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Reply Sat 15 Jul, 2006 07:04 am
Joe Nation wrote:
Finn: I think you think the Islamic radicals are thinking rationally. Here's Thomas Friedmann's take. I cut and paste it here so that no one has to register to get it. Your thoughts, please.


Joe(and flames)Nation


I agree with most of what Friedmann has written and his premise doesn't rely on irrational thought by any of the Islamic players. If the goal is to maintain or develop totalitarian regimes within the region then what is happening in the Middle East today reflects malignant rationality.

This is essentially my point in asking what other motives Iran may be serving by fanning the flames other than diverting international attention away from their nuclear program? I think Freidman is right, Iran and Syria (increasingly, it seems, becoming more of a client than an ally of Iran) benefit from instability in the region.

Additional questions are how much instability does Iran seek and how well can they control the level produced?

I think the question to the latter is not as well as they might like to think, and I'm not at all certain of the answer to the former.

There are reports this morning that there are at least 100 Iranian "advisors" in Lebanon assisting in improving Hezbollah's rocket range from 6 to over 20 miles. If this is true, I don't know how it can be seen by Israel as anything but an overt act of aggression by Iran. Israeli military strike agains Syria and Iran seem increasingly possible, and should that happen it's hard to imagine that all hell won't break loose.

The basic strategy of Iran and their client and puppets is rational, however I think that elements of the irrational are introduced by their pathological hatred for Israel, their psychotic obsession with being acknowledged as powerful, and whatever other twisted threads run through their minds and hearts that drive them to seek domination through violent means.
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xingu
 
  1  
Reply Sat 15 Jul, 2006 08:47 am
Comment by Juan Cole.

Quote:
Global Protests at Indiscriminate Israeli Bombings of Lebanon

The Associated Press puts the Israeli offensive against Lebanon on Friday succinctly:

' Israel again bombarded Lebanon's airport and main roads in the most intensive offensive against the country in 24 years. For the first time, it struck the crowded Shiite neighborhood of south Beirut around Hezbollah's headquarters, toppling overpasses and sheering facades off apartment buildings. Concrete from balconies smashed into parked cars, and car alarms set off by the blasts blared for hours. The toll in three days of clashes rose to 73 killed in Lebanon and at least 12 Israelis, as international alarm grew over the fighting, and oil prices rose to above $78 a barrel. The U.N. Security Council held an emergency session on the violence, and Lebanon accused Israel of launching "a widespread barbaric aggression." In addition to the fighting in Lebanon, Israel pressed ahead with its Gaza Strip offensive against Hamas, striking the Palestinian economy ministry offices early today.

Israel bombed the HQ of Hizbullah leader Shaikh Hasan Nasrullah, probably hoping to kill him, but he survived and launched more retaliatory strikes on Israeli targets. More Katyusha rockets rained down on northern Israel, forcing many residents to flee. And Hizbullah used a drone to attack an Israeli warship, setting it aflame and forcing it to return to port. Four sailors are missing.

The Israeli attacks may well inflict long-term damage on the limping Lebanese economy.

Israeli spokesmen are saying that they want to finish off Hizbullah. But you can't finish off a mass movement among 1.35 million people. Besides, there wouldn't be any Hizbullah if Israel had not invaded Lebanon in 1982 and occupied the south for twenty-two years. Israel's grabby occupation radicalized and helped mobilize the Lebanese Shiites. They aren't going to become less radical and less mobilized as a result of the current hamfisted Israeli assault.

On Friday, thousands of protesters rallied in Cairo, Amman, Gaza City, and Baghdad, as well as throughout Turkey, to protest massive Israeli attacks on Gaza and Lebanon. There was also a demonstration in Dearborn, Michigan. There are 25,000 Americans in Lebanon, now in severe danger from Israeli bombings. Most of the demonstrations in the Middle East not only condemned Israel but also the United States.

Americans have to understand that when Israel goes wild and bombs a civilian airport and civilian neighborhoods in Beirut, a lot of the world's Catholics (Lebanon is partially a Catholic country) and its 1.4 billion Muslims blame the United States for it. Israel is given billions every year by the United States, including sophisticated weaponry that is now being trained on the slums of south Beirut. It should also be remembered that Bin Laden said, at least, that he started thinking about hitting New York when he saw that 1982 Israeli destruction of the skyscrapers or "towers" of Lebanon. How many future Bin Ladens are watching with horror and rage and feelings of revenge as Israel drops bombs on civilian tenement buildings? When will this blow back on Americans? (I mean blow back in other ways than an already painful further spike in petroleum prices).

The Vatican called Israel's assault on Lebanon an "attack on a sovereign and free nation."

Reuters reports on the reaction of French President Jacques Chirac:

'He said Israel's offensive in Lebanon following the capture of two Israeli soldiers and the killing of eight more by Hizbollah guerrillas was "completely disproportionate". "One can ask oneself whether there isn't a sort of desire to destroy Lebanon," he said. But he also condemned Hizbollah and the Palestinian group Hamas, which abducted a third Israeli soldier, as "totally irresponsible" for the attacks which provoked Israel's response. '

Italian Premier Romano Prodi said,

"We deplore this escalation and the serious damage to Lebanon's infrastructure and the civilian victims that these raids have caused."

The USG Open Source Center translates from Text of report by Spanish national RNE Radio 1 on 14 July in Spain this statement by the Spanish prime minister:

(Jose Luis Rodriguez Zapatero) "In my view, Israel is mistaken. Defence is one thing, it is legitimate, and another is launching a counter-offensive of general attack in Lebanon, in Gaza, which will surely bring nothing but a stepping up of the violence."

Norwegian Foreign Minister Jonas Gahr Støre 'government condemned both the militant group Hezbollah's abduction of two Israeli soldiers on Wednesday and the Israeli reaction to it.' He added "We also condemn the Israeli attacks against Lebanon, including the bombing of the airport in Beirut and the naval blockade of Lebanese waters," Støre said. "This is completely unacceptable, and amounts to a dangerous escalation of the situation."
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xingu
 
  1  
Reply Sat 15 Jul, 2006 08:49 am
Here's a link that shows some gruesome results of Israels attack.

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article13991.htm
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