9
   

Contradictions in the Bible...

 
 
wandeljw
 
  1  
Reply Wed 12 Jul, 2006 09:28 am
Intrepid,

Other posts have already pointed out the weakness in "the law came after the incident" excuse.
0 Replies
 
neologist
 
  1  
Reply Wed 12 Jul, 2006 09:29 am
yitwail wrote:
Intrepid wrote:
wandeljw wrote:
The incest story in Genesis, though, remains quite a contradiction.


How so? That was before the laws were told.


intrepid, the Lord killed everyone except Noah & his family because of their wickedness, even though there were no laws that established what acts constitute wickedness.
Quite right. And Joseph knew adultery was wrong before the Ten Commandments forbade it. And Cain must have known murder to be wrong before he bashed Abel.

Paul gave some insight into this when he wrote in Romans 2: 12-16:
Quote:
" For instance, all those who sinned without law will also perish without law; but all those who sinned under law will be judged by law. 13 For the hearers of law are not the ones righteous before God, but the doers of law will be declared righteous. 14 For whenever people of the nations that do not have law do by nature the things of the law, these people, although not having law, are a law to themselves. 15 They are the very ones who demonstrate the matter of the law to be written in their hearts, while their conscience is bearing witness with them and, between their own thoughts, they are being accused or even excused. "
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Wed 12 Jul, 2006 09:31 am
hephzibah wrote:
wandeljw wrote:
hephzibah wrote:
Thanks intrepid. Smile That's exactly the point I was trying to draw out. The law came after the incident.


I am surprised you would endorse a point that is so weak, hephzibah.


Wandeljw, ummm hmmm... well I'm not done yet. Everything has to start somewhere. I don't see this as being a weak point. I see it as being a starting point to build on. However, most people want to skip building a foundation and slap them walls right up. Now that makes for a weak argument if you ask me.


Nonsense. If one follows this line of reasoning, it was a case of anything goes before the "law" was "given" by god. In that case, the destruction of the population of the world in the Noahic flood and the destruction of Sodom and Gemorrah are evidence of the vicious and murderous nature of the god of the bobble. So you are faced with the most glaring contradiction of all--that god is loving, but willing to destroy thousands or even millions because they are wicked by definitions which have never geen given them. You're wading ever more deeply into a morass.
0 Replies
 
neologist
 
  1  
Reply Wed 12 Jul, 2006 09:39 am
Just because a sinful act is recorded in the Bible without mentioning its consequences does not mean it was condoned by God.

Noah got drunk.

Moses killed an Egyptian.

Jacob's sons slaughtered the Shechemites

Etc.
0 Replies
 
Treya
 
  1  
Reply Wed 12 Jul, 2006 09:43 am
See now Setanta, this is exactly what I'm talking about here. Most of you are just throwing a bunch of interpretations all into one bowl and stirring it up saying nothing works. Well yeah, if you throw a bunch of crap in one bowl it's probably going to turn out as green sludge... So lets take this one issue at a time here and really discuss the contradictions then. That's the point of this thread. I hope you all know me well enough by now to know that if I'm wrong about something I assert as truth I will at least admit it and try to look at it from a different angle. Am I the only one here willing to do this though? If I am, then this is just another pointless thread to argue in and I will gladly find something more interesting to move on to. I'm here for several reasons: to understand my own perspectives a little better and the root causes of those perspectives. To adjust that perspective if necessary. And to learn about others perspectives. If I can't do that, then it's pretty much a pointless endeavor on my part. So... what's the verdict?
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Wed 12 Jul, 2006 09:47 am
neologist wrote:
Just because a sinful act is recorded in the Bible without mentioning its consequences does not mean it was condoned by God.

Noah got drunk.

Moses killed an Egyptian.

Jacob's sons slaughtered the Shechemites

Etc.


When Noah got drunk, his boy Ham is reputed to have "looked on his nakedness" . . .

Genesis Chapter Nine:

18 Now the sons of Noah who went out of the ark were Shem, Ham, and Japheth. And Ham was the father of Canaan.
19 These three were the sons of Noah, and from these the whole earth was populated.
20 And Noah began to be a farmer, and he planted a vineyard.
21 Then he drank of the wine and was drunk, and became uncovered in his tent.
22 And Ham, the father of Canaan, saw the nakedness of his father, and told his two brothers outside.
23 But Shem and Japheth took a garment, laid it on both their shoulders, and went backward and covered the nakedness of their father. Their faces were turned away, and they did not see their father's nakedness.
24 So Noah awoke from his wine, and knew what his younger son had done to him.
25 Then he said: "Cursed be Canaan; A servant of servants He shall be to his brethren."


Now, apart from having no good reason to assume that Noah would know that Ham was at fault (other than he might have been the class clown), one can examine consequences--with a vengeance. When the Hebrews made their way out of Egypt into "the promised land," they began a reign of terror in which they slaughtered men, women and children. But that was OK, huh, because Ham was a bad boy?

Yeah, i can see why people would be reluctant to discuss consequences.
0 Replies
 
wandeljw
 
  1  
Reply Wed 12 Jul, 2006 09:52 am
I commend hephzibah for starting this thread. I believe she is sincere about being "open" about this.
0 Replies
 
Treya
 
  1  
Reply Wed 12 Jul, 2006 09:54 am
Thanks Wandeljw. Smile
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Wed 12 Jul, 2006 09:59 am
hephzibah wrote:
See now Setanta, this is exactly what I'm talking about here. Most of you are just throwing a bunch of interpretations all into one bowl and stirring it up saying nothing works. Well yeah, if you throw a bunch of crap in one bowl it's probably going to turn out as green sludge... So lets take this one issue at a time here and really discuss the contradictions then. That's the point of this thread. I hope you all know me well enough by now to know that if I'm wrong about something I assert as truth I will at least admit it and try to look at it from a different angle. Am I the only one here willing to do this though? If I am, then this is just another pointless thread to argue in and I will gladly find something more interesting to move on to. I'm here for several reasons: to understand my own perspectives a little better and the root causes of those perspectives. To adjust that perspective if necessary. And to learn about others perspectives. If I can't do that, then it's pretty much a pointless endeavor on my part. So... what's the verdict?


OK, fine . . . here ya go:

Genesis, Chapter Seven (in its entirety, King James version)

7:1 And the LORD said unto Noah, Come thou and all thy house into the ark; for thee have I seen righteous before me in this generation.
7:2 Of every clean beast thou shalt take to thee by sevens, the male and his female: and of beasts that are not clean by two, the male and his female.
7:3 Of fowls also of the air by sevens, the male and the female; to keep seed alive upon the face of all the earth.
7:4 For yet seven days, and I will cause it to rain upon the earth forty days and forty nights; and every living substance that I have made will I destroy from off the face of the earth.
7:5 And Noah did according unto all that the LORD commanded him.
7:6 And Noah was six hundred years old when the flood of waters was upon the earth.
7:7 And Noah went in, and his sons, and his wife, and his sons' wives with him, into the ark, because of the waters of the flood.
7:8 Of clean beasts, and of beasts that are not clean, and of fowls, and of every thing that creepeth upon the earth,
7:9 There went in two and two unto Noah into the ark, the male and the female, as God had commanded Noah.
7:10 And it came to pass after seven days, that the waters of the flood were upon the earth.
7:11 In the six hundredth year of Noah's life, in the second month, the seventeenth day of the month, the same day were all the fountains of the great deep broken up, and the windows of heaven were opened.
7:12 And the rain was upon the earth forty days and forty nights.
7:13 In the selfsame day entered Noah, and Shem, and Ham, and Japheth, the sons of Noah, and Noah's wife, and the three wives of his sons with them, into the ark;
7:14 They, and every beast after his kind, and all the cattle after their kind, and every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind, and every fowl after his kind, every bird of every sort.
7:15 And they went in unto Noah into the ark, two and two of all flesh, wherein is the breath of life.
7:16 And they that went in, went in male and female of all flesh, as God had commanded him: and the LORD shut him in.
7:17 And the flood was forty days upon the earth; and the waters increased, and bare up the ark, and it was lift up above the earth.
7:18 And the waters prevailed, and were increased greatly upon the earth; and the ark went upon the face of the waters.
7:19 And the waters prevailed exceedingly upon the earth; and all the high hills, that were under the whole heaven, were covered.
7:20 Fifteen cubits upward did the waters prevail; and the mountains were covered.
7:21 And all flesh died that moved upon the earth, both of fowl, and of cattle, and of beast, and of every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth, and every man:
7:22 All in whose nostrils was the breath of life, of all that was in the dry land, died.
7:23 And every living substance was destroyed which was upon the face of the ground, both man, and cattle, and the creeping things, and the fowl of the heaven; and they were destroyed from the earth: and Noah only remained alive, and they that were with him in the ark.
7:24 And the waters prevailed upon the earth an hundred and fifty days.


Did take two pairs of every beast, clean and unclean, or did he take seven pairs of the clean beasts and two pairs of the clean? Was he 600 years old, or was he 599 going on 600 ("in his six hundredth year")? Did he enter the "Ark" because there were flood waters, or did he enter the boat seven days before hand? Were the flood waters upon the earth forty days, or one hundred fifty days?

You may say that this is quibbling, but it is important because biblical literalists claim that Genesis was written by a single author, while reputable scholars point to these contradictions, and say there were several authors over a period of time, and that the Pentateuch was edited in the 5th Century BCE, to attempt (not very successfully) to remove contradictions. You're going to need to do some fancy dancing here, Boss.

(I've chosen the flood story because i've been working with that for a while now, and have recently re-read the relevant passages several times.)
0 Replies
 
Intrepid
 
  1  
Reply Wed 12 Jul, 2006 10:00 am
It would be nice if everyone heeded hephzibah's request to discuss one item at a time. This, IMO, is a good thread for some good discussion, but having everything thrown in helter skelter only muddies the waters.

Like hephzibah, I don't claim to have all the answers. I am also willing to back off if I am wrong and am not afraid to admit it. I will also admit that I find some things in the bible disturbing and without reason. At least reason that I can fully understand.

Answering one item by using other items that have no connection is of little value.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Wed 12 Jul, 2006 10:11 am
You've got a discrete incident in Genesis Seven. Any comments on the glaring internal inconsistencies?
0 Replies
 
neologist
 
  1  
Reply Wed 12 Jul, 2006 10:15 am
Noah was 599, going on 600, as I am in my 64th year, going on 65. (Rats!)

2 pairs of every unclean and 7 pairs of every clean.

They entered before the rain started

The rain lasted 40 days

The waters prevailed 150 days.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Wed 12 Jul, 2006 10:18 am
I see, so you are willing to stipulate the contradictions, then?
0 Replies
 
Lightwizard
 
  1  
Reply Wed 12 Jul, 2006 10:24 am
The flood which supposedly was "world wide" apparantly would have included the North American continent (even though those who wrote the Bible weren't informed) and carved out the Grand Canyon in that 150 days. Laughing
0 Replies
 
Intrepid
 
  1  
Reply Wed 12 Jul, 2006 10:26 am
Lightwizard wrote:
The flood which supposedly was "world wide" apparantly would have included the North American continent (even though those who wrote the Bible weren't informed) and carved out the Grand Canyon in that 150 days. Laughing


Do you know the boundaries of what was the known world at that time? Nowhere in the bible does it claim anything about the Grand Canyon.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Wed 12 Jul, 2006 10:26 am
7:6 And Noah was six hundred years old when the flood of waters was upon the earth.

but,

7:11 In the six hundredth year of Noah's life, in the second month, the seventeenth day of the month, the same day were all the fountains of the great deep broken up, and the windows of heaven were opened.

This is unambiguouly a contradiction.

7:2 Of every clean beast thou shalt take to thee by sevens, the male and his female: and of beasts that are not clean by two, the male and his female.
7:3 Of fowls also of the air by sevens, the male and the female; to keep seed alive upon the face of all the earth.


but,

7:8 Of clean beasts, and of beasts that are not clean, and of fowls, and of every thing that creepeth upon the earth,
7:9 There went in two and two unto Noah into the ark, the male and the female, as God had commanded Noah.


This is unambiguously a contradiction.

7:7 And Noah went in, and his sons, and his wife, and his sons' wives with him, into the ark, because of the waters of the flood.

but,

7:10 And it came to pass after seven days, that the waters of the flood were upon the earth.

This is unambiguously a contradiction.

7:17 And the flood was forty days upon the earth; and the waters increased, and bare up the ark, and it was lift up above the earth.

but,

7:24 And the waters prevailed upon the earth an hundred and fifty days.

This is unambiguously a contradiction.

***********************************************************

You will be obliged to attempt to claim that these passages do not mean what they pantently say--you will be obliged to "interpret" the text, if you will assert that these are not contradictions.
0 Replies
 
yitwail
 
  1  
Reply Wed 12 Jul, 2006 10:27 am
Intrepid wrote:
Answering one item by using other items that have no connection is of little value.


that's fine, but you won't have much discussion if no one is allowed to object to any of hephzibah's answers. her answer to material girl's question was (after first answering the question with another question),

Quote:
The law came after the incident.


which echoed your explanation that

Quote:
That was before the laws were told.


so i brought up the Genesis flood, where all humanity, except Noah and kin, were punished for misdeeds not prohibited by any laws. why is that not connected to the original question & answer about incest?
0 Replies
 
Intrepid
 
  1  
Reply Wed 12 Jul, 2006 10:30 am
Yitwail,
I was not referring to you. It was a general comment.
0 Replies
 
Lightwizard
 
  1  
Reply Wed 12 Jul, 2006 10:41 am
Intrepid wrote:
Lightwizard wrote:
The flood which supposedly was "world wide" apparantly would have included the North American continent (even though those who wrote the Bible weren't informed) and carved out the Grand Canyon in that 150 days. Laughing


Do you know the boundaries of what was the known world at that time? Nowhere in the bible does it claim anything about the Grand Canyon.


Laughing

You really need to get a clue. The Creationists are famous now for stating that very nonsensical notion. The fact that there was no New World and the extent of their world was confined to not even an eighth of the world's surface is enough to make one choke on the Old Testament.
I realize there is evidence of a flooding at the Black Sea in ancient times -- they've found remnants of buildings beneath and around the perimeter dating somewhat around the time the flood might have occurred. The more these Bible-heads write, the sillier it gets.
0 Replies
 
yitwail
 
  1  
Reply Wed 12 Jul, 2006 10:42 am
alright then. i just wanted to clarify things. incidentally, neologist shed light on my point, by quoting Romans: (thanks, neo! Smile)

Quote:
" For instance, all those who sinned without law will also perish without law; but all those who sinned under law will be judged by law. 13 For the hearers of law are not the ones righteous before God, but the doers of law will be declared righteous. 14 For whenever people of the nations that do not have law do by nature the things of the law, these people, although not having law, are a law to themselves. 15 They are the very ones who demonstrate the matter of the law to be written in their hearts, while their conscience is bearing witness with them and, between their own thoughts, they are being accused or even excused. "


http://www.able2know.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=2140043#2140043

but this quote *seems* hard to square with the reasoning that incest between Lot & his daughters preceded the laws against incest and therefore do not contradict the subsequent laws decreed against it.
0 Replies
 
 

Related Topics

 
Copyright © 2021 MadLab, LLC :: Terms of Service :: Privacy Policy :: Page generated in 0.03 seconds on 12/07/2021 at 01:13:52