Let's discuss vouchers!

Is this why, so many parents are self-educating their kids at home, today?

0 Replies

au - You seem to be assuming that everyone will have the choice to use a voucher--not so in the programs of which I am aware, and that parents who use them always choose private schools--also not true. You also seem to consider the state of the schools to be static. Please consider the real world example I cited above. Can you comment on what is wrong with that real success story?

0 Replies

sozobe wrote:

The separation of church and state issue, the fact that many of the alternatives are religion-based, as I said in the previous thread, bothers me a great deal.

Since the Supreme Court decided on that matter, separation of church and state no longer an issue. The court's argument was similar to Scrat's: as long as the money goes to parents, not to churches, school vouchers are no more objectionable than the GI bill.

It is true that many of the alternatives are religion-based. But that is an artifact of the fact that most voucher programs are endowed with too little money to pay for the total cost of schooling. So, to the extent that you perceive religious involvment as a problem, you can easily fix it by making the voucher pay for the whole cost of schooling. Secular, for-profit companies will enter the school business in no time and drive the semi-charities out.

PS: I appreciate that you take so much care to back up your opinion with references, but it isn't clear to me exactly what your opinion is. You would help me a lot if you could make a statement of the form: "If we voucherize the school system, bad consequences x, y, and z are likely to occur." That would help me improve my own arguments.

-- Thomas

0 Replies

au1929 wrote:

At this point since the participation in the program is very limited there is no antidotal evidence of either position. However, consider who will participate in the program.
1] Those who are now in private and parochial schools and paying for that privilege would be given a tax supported bonus.

And this is a problem because .... ?

au1929 wrote:

2] Children of parents who give a damn.

And why should parents who give a dam be held hostage by parents who don't?

puzzled

-- Thomas

0 Replies

The bottom line is that the taxpayers will be paying for the vouchers.

So, if you're a Catholic parent, you'll be paying for your child to attend Catholic school. You'll be paying your property taxes to support the public schools and you'll be paying more federal income taxes to support the voucher system.

0 Replies

New Haven - A point of clarification. I am in favor of states being free to implement voucher programs if they choose. I am not in favor of a federal voucher program.

NOTE: Yes, I am actually against something that President Bush is for. Shocked

0 Replies

Thomas, I pretty much summarized my opinion in the previous thread. Circa 1996, in grad school, having read pretty much all there was to read on the subject (I don't exaggerate that much), I was wholeheartedly against vouchers. Reasons included separation of church and state issues, lack of understanding of the complexity of problems with the school system and how to fix them by the proponents of vouchers, faulty data used as a basis for "proof" that vouchers work, and disability issues (private schools often do not have nearly the resources that public schools do for children with disabilities).

Since then, I haven't really kept abreast of the issue. I have read articles now and then, especially in the New York Times, and nothing thus far has made me say, "Oh, OK, vouchers are a good idea." Something may yet. I haven't seen it yet in this discussion.

This is one of those onion-skin issues -- pull off one layer, and there's another, and another, and another... I never like to say, "No, that's not how it works" without saying "because..." preferably with a cite. So while that is my initial reaction to several statements here, I'm trying to read up and give a substantial answer. This is giving me a headache and taking up time I don't have. Wink

But I will come back to it as I can today.

0 Replies

scrat

0 Replies

New Haven wrote:

The bottom line is that the taxpayers will be paying for the vouchers.

True. But for every child that leaves the school system via a voucher program, the taxpayer also gets to stop paying for the public school system to school that child. So the taxpayer doesn't pay more, he just pays through different channels.

New Haven wrote:

So, if you're a Catholic parent, you'll be paying for your child to attend Catholic school. You'll be paying your property taxes to support the public schools and you'll be paying more federal income taxes to support the voucher system.

That's what happens under the current system, not under the voucher system. Let's say I'm a Catholic parent with his child in a Catholic school, and you're a non-Catholic parent with your child in a government school. Under the current system, I pay for my child's education and your child's education, but you only pay for your childs education. That's unfair to parent's with kids in private schools. Under a voucher system, everybody contributes to the schooling costs of everybody's children. One more reason I prefer it.

0 Replies

Thomas
au1929 wrote:

Quote:

At this point since the participation in the program is very limited there is no antidotal evidence of either position. However, consider who will participate in the program.
1] Those who are now in private and parochial schools and paying for that privilege would be given a tax supported bonus.

And this is a problem because ....

As long as the state maintains a public school system supported by tax dollars. We should not pay for a second system for those to opt out of it. Tuition for private schools has traditionally been paid for by those who attend. For many this is an attempt to get the government to pay for their choice.

Quote:

au1929 wrote:
2] Children of parents who give a damn.

And why should parents who give a dam be held hostage by parents who don't?

puzzled
I am puzzled, what would you do have these childern and schools written off.

Attack the overall problem and fix what is broken. IMO the voucher program does not.

0 Replies

The voucher systems in the U.S. are run on an experimental level only - they differ from each other and show different results. there is NO conclusive evidence to say whether they work or not. However, once again, I have to bring up the example of Denmark. The vouchers are used to provide a more equal start for everyone. If you want, don't pay extra, send your kids to public school. If you want, pay a bit more, send them to private school. The anihilation of public schools did not happen. Quite contrary, public school system received a needed boost and schools gained more independence to develop their programs, to provide a higher quality education. Private schools are not necessarily better than public, and once vouchers are introduced, public schools are forced to compete, and do!
Besides, moneywise it does make no difference - both public and private schools get the same amount of money, it is only the channeling of the money that changes. Taxpayers do pay now for public education anyway, and it is only for the amount of money that the public education costs that parents qualify for. Instead of going from government to schools, it will be in parent's hands to choose which schools it will go to.
I am all for vouchers, it gives people true freedom to choose, not just on paper.

0 Replies

au1929 wrote:

Attack the overall problem and fix what is broken. IMO the voucher program does not.

I have offered information on a working voucher program that does just that. You seem unwilling to consider it because it does not fit the opinion you have already reached. As per my previous comments, you seem willing to form and hold an opinion based on your IDEA of what a voucher system is and does, and don't seem to care that the reality of a voucher system disagrees with your imaginary model.

Why?

0 Replies

sozobe wrote:

Reasons included separation of church and state issues,

Which the Supreme Court has resolved last year

sozobe wrote:

lack of understanding of the complexity of problems with the school system and how to fix them by the proponents of vouchers,

Are you saying that because you don't understand the complexity of the problem, that means other people shouldn't try something new?

sozobe wrote:

faulty data used as a basis for "proof" that vouchers work,

But the last time we discussed this issue in another online community, you -- ahem! -- provided me with faulty information and used it as a "proof" that vouchers don't work. My debunking of it hasn't caused you to change your opinion. And neither should it! As long as people gather information, some of it will be faulty -- sometimes intentionally, sometimes not. When you discover that data is faulty, the appropriate conclusion is not that whoever came up with it can't be right. It's to ignore the faulty data and go with the data that hasn't yet been proven faulty. In the case of school vouchers, there's a lot of good empirical evidence that they work -- not proof, but good evidence. So why continue picking on the [bad] empirical evidence, which no doubt exists as well?

sozobe wrote:

and disability issues (private schools often do not have nearly the resources that public schools do for children with disabilities).

Disability issues are simple to fix by having an independent third party certify this disability and raising the child's voucher endowment appropriately. That would give private schools the resources.

sozobe wrote:

nothing thus far has made me say, "Oh, OK, vouchers are a good idea." Something may yet. I haven't seen it yet in this discussion.

I understand you don't have time now, but I'd love to learn why you disagree with my (and Scrat's) arguments. Meanwhile, have a nice day Smile

-- Thomas

0 Replies

sozobe wrote:

Reasons included separation of church and state issues,

Which the Supreme Court has resolved last year

sozobe wrote:

lack of understanding of the complexity of problems with the school system and how to fix them by the proponents of vouchers,

Are you saying that because you don't understand the complexity of the problem, that means other people shouldn't try something new?

sozobe wrote:

faulty data used as a basis for "proof" that vouchers work,

But the last time we discussed this issue in another online community, you -- ahem! -- provided me with faulty information and used it as a "proof" that vouchers don't work. My debunking of it hasn't caused you to change your opinion. And neither should it! As long as people gather information, some of it will be faulty -- sometimes intentionally, sometimes not. When you discover that data is faulty, the appropriate conclusion is not that whoever came up with it can't be right. It's to ignore the faulty data and go with the data that hasn't yet been proven faulty. In the case of school vouchers, there's a lot of good empirical evidence that they work -- not proof, but good evidence. So why continue picking on the [bad] empirical evidence, which no doubt exists as well?

sozobe wrote:

and disability issues (private schools often do not have nearly the resources that public schools do for children with disabilities).

Disability issues are simple to fix by having an independent third party certify this disability and raising the child's voucher endowment appropriately. That would give private schools the resources.

sozobe wrote:

nothing thus far has made me say, "Oh, OK, vouchers are a good idea." Something may yet. I haven't seen it yet in this discussion.

I understand you don't have time now, but I'd love to learn why you disagree with my (and Scrat's) arguments. Meanwhile, have a nice day Smile

-- Thomas

0 Replies

Dag, interesting info. I found this but haven't yet found the study it refers to:

Quote:

Stanford University professor Henry Levin recently concluded that "choice" plans in Europe increased segregation by socioeconomic status, because, over time, parents with means grew more aggressive about moving their children to schools with students of similar economic status. In America, where race and ethnicity remain closely entwined with economic status, that trend would result in even sharper economic and racial segregation.

Thomas, I'm not saying I do understand the complexity of the problem, but that statement was referring to proponents of vouchers underestimating the complexity.

I don't remember the proof that was offered, but I think the finding Winerip is referring to is significant because that study was explicitly and repeatedly cited as a basis for why vouchers are a good idea. I very much agree with Dagmaraka as to "proof" at this point, either way.

In both discussions we have had, I've dispensed with the obvious things, then you say something which I have an immediate "NO, that's not how it works!!" reaction, but explaining that requires really quite a lot of context, cites, comparisons, etc., or else it's useless. That bogs me down. The disability thing, just for example:

Simple, eh? What if the private schools don't WANT to deal with children with disabilities? This is not about funding, per se. Mainstreaming and the least restrictive environment means that children with disabilities -- wheelchair-bound, cerebral palsy, behavior disabilities, autism, etc., etc., -- have the right to learn alongside their peers. That makes the job of the teacher much more difficult. Many teachers and schools would prefer not to deal with that, and right now, private schools don't have to. They are allowed to deny admission to students with disabilities. Public schools do not have that choice.

I found this list of questions which goes into the complexity further:

Quote:

Will all students -- including special education students -- have equal access to private school admission?
Will private schools be allowed to discriminate against kids who have learning and/or physical disabilities?
Will private schools that accept students with disabilities be able to pay all the extra costs for educating those students themselves or will they need government dollars?
Will private schools be eligible for Part B and C funding from IDEA? If so, how will that affect IDEA's requirements regarding FAPE?
Will private schools requesting funding follow all the regulations set forth in IDEA (as public schools must do) or will they simply exclude students with disabilities ... or students with costly disabilities?
How will private schools deal with the transportation needs of some students with disabilities?
Will private school teachers be trained to teach special education students?
Will underpaid private school teachers get raises?
How will private schools be held accountable? Will standardized testing also be mandated for private schools?
Will private school teachers be required to be certified?
What will happen when a private school has to put in an elevator to their third floor ... or hire Spanish/Russian-speaking teachers ... or hire psychologists to handle emotional disorders ... or ...?
What happens if a private school has more applicants than available enrollment capability?
Will replacement funds be granted to public schools as their student-based monetary support decreases?
Will private schools be allowed to increase their base tuition rates once they realize parents will have more money to spend at their school?

http://www.education-world.com/a_issues/issues335.shtml

All of this could, perhaps, be fixed, yes. More Supreme Court cases, maybe, more legislation passed. But that is not the point. That is the current state of affairs, and it is in the current state of affairs that I am against vouchers. Because I see so many of these little niggling details -- what about this? What about that? -- that have not yet been attended to. I, again, am not saying those problem will not eventually be solved. But for now, they exist, and there are a lot of them.

0 Replies

Hmm, I don't know where mr. Levin got his information, as far as I know Denmark is the only EUropean country that has vouchers on a large scale - is there a link to his study, or article?
As per the concerns from the web you linked, soz, those are surely valid and need to be asked prior to introducing ANY change in the education policies. But while they do get asked, perhaps the voucher system could reflect them once it gets designed (if ever).
This is a very hypothetical debate, for i honestly don't believe the vouchers would ever be approved in the U.S. on a national level. It's just against the dominant beliefs in individualism (fend for yourself), the least amount of regulation possible, etc. Too bad, I say, but such is the reality.

0 Replies

Dag, this is where the quote is from, but it didn't offer a cite and I haven't found the original study yet:

http://www.educationreport.org/pubs/mer/article.asp?ID=2234

I found more about the disability questions and evidently there is some attempt in Florida to address that, which has its own flaws:

Quote:

VOUCHER REPORT: As Congress now gets down to the real
business of reauthorizing the Individuals with Disabilities
Education Act (IDEA), supporters of private-school vouchers
are touting a little-known Florida program as a model for
improving special education. Pro-voucher forces are also
backing bills in at least four states -- Arkansas,
Connecticut, Hawaii, and Oklahoma -- that would create
programs patterned after Florida's 1999 McKay voucher
law. One of the McKay law's most enthusiastic promoters
has dubbed the program the "Florida Miracle," but today
People for the American Way Foundation (PFAWF) and DREDF
released a report that debunks this myth, raising serious
concerns about financial abuse and the law's impact on
parents' rights and special education services.

A description and summary of the report follows. The
complete report is available on the DREDF website:
www.dredf.org/vouchers.

The report, JEOPARDIZING A LEGACY: A CLOSER LOOK AT IDEA
AND FLORIDA'S DISABILITY VOUCHER PROGRAM, examines the
three-year experience of the McKay vouchers and concludes
that the Florida program "is an Educational Edsel -- a
cynical 'model' that would only lead the nation's parents,
students and teachers down a dangerous path."

JEOPARDIZING A LEGACY notes that the program sacrifices key
legal rights that parents would otherwise have under IDEA,
lacks financial or academic accountability to parents and
taxpayers, and drains critical funds from public schools.

Last summer, the President's Commission on Excellence in
Special Education recommended that IDEA be reauthorized
with a private-school voucher provision (RRN #12 summarized
that report). Last month, Education Secretary Rod Paige
embraced this recommendation. Many voucher supporters have
cited Florida's McKay program as a model for IDEA. As
JEOPARDIZING A LEGACY explains, however, McKay vouchers
have drained millions of tax dollars from public schools,
undermined the rights of parents and failed to hold private
schools accountable. Leaders of the two organizations that
co-authored the report echoed many of the concerns raised
by JEOPARDIZING A LEGACY.

"Florida officials have taken an out-of-sight, out-of-mind
approach to the McKay vouchers, and we're seeing the
serious consequences that this lack of oversight is having
on children with disabilities," said PFAWF President Ralph
G. Neas. "Voucher programs offer just one more way for
public schools to exclude and fail to serve students with
disabilities," said Arlene B. Mayerson, Directing Attorney
for DREDF. "Rather than being empowered with choices,
parents will once again find themselves with no place to
turn to get an appropriate education for their children."

http://www.jfanow.org/cgi/getli.pl?1690

0 Replies

Hmph. Sorry for funky layout. Tried to copy it to notepad first but that didn't work, either.

0 Replies

Scrat wrote:

New Haven - A point of clarification. I am in favor of states being free to implement voucher programs if they choose. I am not in favor of a federal voucher program.

NOTE: Yes, I am actually against something that President Bush is for.

If that's the case, then our state taxes will go up.

0 Replies

Scrat
They Identified the underperforming schools and upgraded them. What makes you think that the reason for the upgrade was based upon the threat of vouchers?
Here in NY. Parents who have children in underperforming schools and want to enroll them in better performing ones are unable to because of a lack of space. I should note that in checking the reading and math scores in different school districts and in fact in the same districts there is a great disparity. Why, because of the school or because of the population in the school. Why is it that despite of being in an underachieving school there are many in those populations who do well.
The problem is not the school or the funds allotted to education it boils down in my opinion to discipline, parents and our permissive society. I would also add bussing and the dissolution of the neighborhood school but I do not want to open up another can of beans.

0 Replies

Let's discuss vouchers!

Related Topics

Quick Links

My Account

able2know