value of faith

Bartikus wrote:

Frank do you know that Scott777 is only making a guess in regards to the existence of God.

Nope!

I am guessing.

Quote:

Do you know (that all those who say they know God exists) are nothing more than guesses?

Nope!

I am guessing.

Quote:

.....are you not just making a guess yourself

Of course, I am. Every time you folks as me about this kind of thing...I immediately acknowledge that I am guessing.

I guess I could always include the words "I guess..."...but it is so much fun watching you poor boobs act out your silly "gotchas"...that never go anywhere.

Quote:

....ye believer? lol

No. You only become a "believer" when you try to peddle your silly guesses as something other than a guess.

Like you do so often.

You only become a "believer" when you try to disguise your "guesses" as "beliefs"...and then demand that other people "respect your beliefs."

Oh, I feel so great. Just had a fabulous dinner...and now it is off to the spa for an early evening soak. My mind will be the better for the laughter and joy this thread is bringing me.

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Frank Apisa wrote:

Bartikus wrote:
Frank do you know that Scott777 is only making a guess in regards to the existence of God.

Nope!

I am guessing.

Quote:
Do you know (that all those who say they know God exists) are nothing more than guesses?

Nope!

I am guessing.

Quote:
.....are you not just making a guess yourself

Of course, I am. Every time you folks as me about this kind of thing...I immediately acknowledge that I am guessing.

I guess I could always include the words "I guess..."...but it is so much fun watching you poor boobs act out your silly "gotchas"...that never go anywhere.

Quote:
....ye believer? lol

No. You only become a "believer" when you try to peddle your silly guesses as something other than a guess.

Like you do so often.

You only become a "believer" when you try to disguise your "guesses" as "beliefs"...and then demand that other people "respect your beliefs."

Oh, I feel so great. Just had a fabulous dinner...and now it is off to the spa for an early evening soak. My mind will be the better for the laughter and joy this thread is bringing me.

Thanks for sharing your guess/opinion of what it means to be a believer.

I'm sure you have never peddled your silly guesses/opinions as anything but....guesses.

Part of your member description reads:

"I have become an agnostic activist because I truly think the world would be a better place if we all acknowledged our agnosticism. I believe, if you will excuse that seemingly incongruous expression, that everyone is an agnostic. It's just that we agnostics come in two categories--those who acknowledge that we don't know the answers to unanswerable questions; and those who pretend to know. That latter category includes the theists and the atheists (two sides of one coin)--both of whom suppose they know the answers to those unanswerable questions. "

Makes sense......maybe.....just a guess I guess.

Who knows?

Unanswerable..... hmm.

BTW Golfing is fun (i suk at it) but still have fun. Have a good time at the spa. (lucky dog) What did you eat for dinner?

On second thought nevermind......thinking about the bologna sandwich I had is depressing enough right now. lol

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Bartikus wrote:

Thanks for sharing your guess/opinion of what it means to be a believer.

I'm sure you have never peddled your silly guesses/opinions as anything but....guesses.

Part of your member description reads:

"I have become an agnostic activist because I truly think the world would be a better place if we all acknowledged our agnosticism. I believe, if you will excuse that seemingly incongruous expression, that everyone is an agnostic. It's just that we agnostics come in two categories--those who acknowledge that we don't know the answers to unanswerable questions; and those who pretend to know. That latter category includes the theists and the atheists (two sides of one coin)--both of whom suppose they know the answers to those unanswerable questions. "

Makes sense......maybe.....just a guess I guess.

Who knows?

Unanswerable..... hmm.

BTW Golfing is fun (i suk at it) but still have fun. Have a good time at the spa. (lucky dog) What did you eat for dinner?

On second thought nevermind......thinking about the bologna sandwich I had is depressing enough right now. lol

My gold game is in the toilet right now, Bart...so I know what you mean. It is fun...no matter that my scores are high for the moment.

The spa was delightful.

I love that question you posed: "Who knows?"

Who, indeed!

Have a great day, my cyber friend. We'll talk more.

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Frank Apisa wrote:

You only become a "believer" when you try to peddle your silly guesses as something other than a guess.

You only become a "believer" when you try to disguise your "guesses" as "beliefs"...and then demand that other people "respect your beliefs."

Exceptional post Frank. Makes alot of sense.

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CerealKiller wrote:

Frank Apisa wrote:

You only become a "believer" when you try to peddle your silly guesses as something other than a guess.

You only become a "believer" when you try to disguise your "guesses" as "beliefs"...and then demand that other people "respect your beliefs."

Exceptional post Frank. Makes alot of sense.

Thank you, CK.

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Quote:

You only become a "believer" when you try to peddle your silly guesses as something other than a guess.

You only become a "believer" when you try to disguise your "guesses" as "beliefs"...and then demand that other people "respect your beliefs."

Well... one CAN be a believer without either peddling anything, disguising anything for anyone else, or peddling anything on anyone else.
I personally am not prone to try to explain what I believe unless asked.

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snood wrote:

Quote:
You only become a "believer" when you try to peddle your silly guesses as something other than a guess.

You only become a "believer" when you try to disguise your "guesses" as "beliefs"...and then demand that other people "respect your beliefs."

Well... one CAN be a believer without either peddling anything, disguising anything for anyone else, or peddling anything on anyone else.
I personally am not prone to try to explain what I believe unless asked.

So how do you differentiate between a guess and a belief ?

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snood wrote:

Quote:
You only become a "believer" when you try to peddle your silly guesses as something other than a guess.

You only become a "believer" when you try to disguise your "guesses" as "beliefs"...and then demand that other people "respect your beliefs."

Well... one CAN be a believer without either peddling anything, disguising anything for anyone else, or peddling anything on anyone else.
I personally am not prone to try to explain what I believe unless asked.

Snood...my comment stands as it was presented in context.

Bart had written:

Quote:

Frank do you know that Scott777 is only making a guess in regards to the existence of God.

Do you know (that all those who say they know God exists) are nothing more than guesses? .....are you not just making a guess yourself....ye believer? lol

I explained that I WAS just guessing...and then went on to deal with his light-hearted comment about me "believing."

The point I was trying to make (albeit rather heavy-handedly and unsuccessfully) was that guessing is not equivalent to believing...and that in order for a guess to be a belief, it has to be presented as a "belief"...which, in my opinion, is an attempt to disguise that it is a guess.

Said another way: Not all guesses are beliefs...but all beliefs are guesses.

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Frank

I cannot say I agree with your definition of what is a believer, but that is a debate on definitions.

What you call a believer, (one who tries to peddle his silly guesses as something other than guesses) I am inclined to call a liar. Either by choice or by ignorance.

The latter is the worst, as I see it, because he doesn't know that he's lying.

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CerealKiller wrote:

snood wrote:
Quote:
You only become a "believer" when you try to peddle your silly guesses as something other than a guess.

You only become a "believer" when you try to disguise your "guesses" as "beliefs"...and then demand that other people "respect your beliefs."

Well... one CAN be a believer without either peddling anything, disguising anything for anyone else, or peddling anything on anyone else.
I personally am not prone to try to explain what I believe unless asked.

So how do you differentiate between a guess and a belief ?

Should I take your deafening silence as a sign that you agree with Frank, and don't differentiate between a guess and a belief ?

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Irrespective of Frank's vested interest in handing out the "faith is a guess" buttons, if someone who survives an ordeal says that "faith in God" kept them going then you are dealing with a different ballgame to "guesswork". The only logical way to investigate the word "faith" is to try to see how it operates as part of a particular individual's concept of "reality". Wittgenstein said "the limits of my language are the limits of my world"....the guy who has "faith" is operating in a different world to the guy who "only guesses". In essence he seeks respect for his operations not his "beliefs".

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fresco wrote:

Irrespective of Frank's vested interest in handing out the "faith is a guess" buttons, if someone who survives an ordeal says that "faith in God" kept them going then you are dealing with a different ballgame to "guesswork".

Was it not their guess that there is a God watching over them that helped them through the ordeal? Faith and guess are essentially the same thing in this instance.

fresco wrote:

The only logical way to investigate the word "faith" is to try to see how it operates as part of a particular individual's concept of "reality". Wittgenstein said "the limits of my language are the limits of my world"....the guy who has "faith" is operating in a different world to the guy who "only guesses". In essence he seeks respect for his operations not his "beliefs".

The guy who "eats magic mushrooms" is operating in a different world to the guy who "only smokes crack." In essence, he seeks respect for his method of using drugs, not his preference of drugs. Karl Marx once said "religion is the opiate of the masses."

Sorry but that was worthy of a parody.

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fresco wrote:

Irrespective of Frank's vested interest in handing out the "faith is a guess" buttons, if someone who survives an ordeal says that "faith in God" kept them going then you are dealing with a different ballgame to "guesswork". The only logical way to investigate the word "faith" is to try to see how it operates as part of a particular individual's concept of "reality". Wittgenstein said "the limits of my language are the limits of my world"....the guy who has "faith" is operating in a different world to the guy who "only guesses". In essence he seeks respect for his operations not his "beliefs".

He only handed out buttons that said beliefs are guesses as far as religion is concerned.

Faith is the insistence that the guess is correct.

You've been talking with him all these years and you can't get the mantra straight by now?

Welcome to Placeboville, population you.

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My point is that non-contextual definition is irrelevent. (Wittgenstein ..."meaning is use"). To re-iterate a point I made much earlier...the religious believer who says "I know God exists" is employing the words "know" and "exist" relative to his perception of himself as cohesive entity which has no identity without such "knowledge". He has no choice....for him it is a non-negotiable axiom.

"Objectivity" is a mythical ideal...what matters is psychological and social cohesion. The "value" of "faith", like any other concept, is determined by its positive or negative contributions to such cohesion in specific contexts.

The ceremonial involving the flag-draped coffins of dead servicemen returning from foreign wars.....the slow march....the priest intoning "our certainty in eternal life".....if not operating as a manifestation of "religious faith" is operating at the level of faith in "nation" or "democracy"....This is the visual picture of aspects of such "cohesion".

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Quote:

Faith is the insistence that the guess is correct.

No it is not. That is just hard headedness.

Faith is going with the guess even though there's a chance it might be wrong.

Not saying it's always good, but sometimes it's all you got.

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Cyracuz wrote:

Quote:
Faith is the insistence that the guess is correct.

No it is not. That is just hard headedness.

Faith is going with the guess even though there's a chance it might be wrong.

Not saying it's always good, but sometimes it's all you got.

I think you just described wishful thinking.

Didn't dyslexia say "Faith may be a delusion, but it's the only one we've got." :wink: Could be some cockeyed half-truth there somewhere.

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No, I don't think that is wishful thinking.

Faiht is the ability to trust what you don't understand.

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value of faith

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