value of faith

I am left wondering if you actually believe all these things happened to you, or if you are just making them up for the sake of argument.
If the latter, at least you still have your sanity.

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Skipaloops, Doc. Skipaloops.

Explains a lot.

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Just some random thoughts on the very large topic of faith.....

I think faith can be enormously beneficial for lots of reasons, even faith in gods who may or may not exist. One who proceeds with the confidence of "knowing" they have a god helping them may be less likely to fail, than those who lack such confidence/courage. The truth of the matter BEHIND the faith is somewhat irrelevant.

Faith also helps to give impetus to action over inaction. eg "I will take this path because my lucky rabbit's foot is pointing that way". The alternative may be not taking either path, which may be the worst outcome.

A certain measure of faith is required in human relationships also. No one can be 100% certain that their partners have and will be "faithful" but to never have a partner on that basis would be foolish in itself.

Faith certainly has the potential to cause as much harm to oneself and to others as it does good though. 9/11 demonstrates that easily enough.

Everyone understanding what faith actually is would be the best outcome of all. Then we could even have an intelligent conversation with folks like Scott.

Scott, if a person had the same experience of alien anal probes, would you simply accept his every word as truth? Why would you expect us to do this for you?

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One can define faith in a number of ways. After all it's a term that has use and meaning by convention, and many terms, like faith, are sufficiently manifold and ambiguous to carry many meanings.
But I think it is useful--for me at least--to distinguish it from its most commonly assigned synonym: belief.
I prefer something like "confidence." Belief implies that we understand something; faith implies a positive attitude in the face of not understanding. As Cyracuz said: "Faith is essentially the capacity to trust what we don't understand."
Where I lack faith (an attitude of confidence), I need to find an acceptable belief. I think all religion, most philosophy and much science involve the effort to find beliefs in a positive Reality.
I like to think that I enjoy a generalized "faith"--as attitude, not cognitive belief--that all is ULTIMATELY well, or as it should be. I can't say why, I just do.

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Doktor S wrote:

I am left wondering if you actually believe all these things happened to you, or if you are just making them up for the sake of argument.
If the latter, at least you still have your sanity.

I dont make up stuff for the sake of an arguement.

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Thanks JLN and Eorl. I think you've highlighted a few important aspects of faith.

Regardless of wether you are a religious man or more sceptically attuned, I think faith is a vital aspect of every living being.
It is the confidence in our surroundings upon wich we build tomorrow.

Eorl wrote:

Everyone understanding what faith actually is would be the best outcome of all. Then we could even have an intelligent conversation with folks like Scott.

I don't think that will ever happen, because folks like scott seem to believe that "faith and acceptanc" are mutually exclusive to "intelligence and scepticism". In my own experience it is most beneficial when you can use both in a sort of synergy.

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Re: value of faith

Cyracuz wrote:

What determines the value of faith?

Is it the correctness of the assumptions made in believing that is the measure?

Or is it the motivation this faith produces in the believer?

Faith is essentially the capacity to trust what we don't understand.
One thing is to believe in it, accept it as the daily "backdrop".
Another thing is to act on it. That requires a great measure of trust, but maybe it can yield the answer to the question in this post.

What determines the value of faith?

It's simple really. I do. Faith is a personal matter therefore the only one who can determine it's value is the one who holds that faith.

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No argument here. We each determine what value we place on the capacity to trust without understanding.

But the question was not 'who', but 'what'. :wink:

Some of us are able to "have faith" even in the bleakest of circumstances.
Some of us call it stupidity to defy reason in such a manner, but still we do it, time and again. Why?

What is it we are getting out of it?

Is it valuable?

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Cyracuz wrote:

No argument here. We each determine what value we place on the capacity to trust without understanding.

But the question was not 'who', but 'what'. :wink:

Some of us are able to "have faith" even in the bleakest of circumstances.
Some of us call it stupidity to defy reason in such a manner, but still we do it, time and again. Why?

What is it we are getting out of it?

Is it valuable?

Well, cyracuz, I see your point... However:

What I think

What I believe

What I feel even sometimes...

determines the value is of the faith I have in any certain thing. Smile

Having faith in the bleakest of circumstances is a choice by the faith holder. But I think it all boils down to hope. I believe we need hope of some sort in our lives. I don't think hope is limited by any means to just those who have "religion". Its a matter of being able to see outside of the sucky circumstances and believe that maybe... just maybe... things will get better... Though you have to be willing to do that... which is why it is a choice of the faith holder.

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good points... Smile

I have to consider this a bit. About to lose my bearings. Confused

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Oops... I wasn't trying to pull the rug out from underneath you... LOL Not all is lost necessarily though... Hmmm... what about this:

How do you determine the value of faith?

Smile

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Hehe..

No worries, just pausing to reload.

But anyway, my motive for asking the question in the first place was to try and find out if reason and prediction can substitute faith.

I do not think they can...

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Neither do I.

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Hmmmm... now there is an interesting question! How is it you were thinking they could replace faith?

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In matters of religion, a "belief" is a guess about the unknown...disguised by using the word "belief" mostly because the people making the guesses don't want to acknowledge they are guesses.

"Faith" is simply insisting that the guess is correct.

There is no value in faith.

It is an ethical negative.

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Frank Apisa wrote:

There is no value in faith.

That's a big call Frank. The placebo effect alone gives some value to faith, even if it isn't the value the faithful expect.

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Eorl wrote:

Frank Apisa wrote:

There is no value in faith.

That's a big call Frank. The placebo effect alone gives some value to faith, even if it isn't the value the faithful expect.

Okay!

I overstated the case.

There may be some peripheral value to faith....but it still is an ethical negative.

"Faith"...at its core...is simply insisting that a guess is correct. (And a guess based on damn near nothing at that!)

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frank

religion is a product of faith. Beliefs are formed by the ability to believe. Even though these beliefs may be void of value, does that mean that the tool that formed them is useless.

Philosophies are a product of the ability to think. Still, while some theories are sound, others are completely off the wall. My point is just that one false belief, one result of misguided faith, does not render the entire concept worthless..

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Cyracuz wrote:

frank

religion is a product of faith. Beliefs are formed by the ability to believe. Even though these beliefs may be void of value, does that mean that the tool that formed them is useless.

Philosophies are a product of the ability to think. Still, while some theories are sound, others are completely off the wall. My point is just that one false belief, one result of misguided faith, does not render the entire concept worthless..

In religious discussions, beliefs are nothing more than guesses, Cyracuz...no matter how much the folks doing the "believing" want things to be otherwise.

They are guesses...plain and simple.

Faith in those guesses is little more than hard-headedness.

I know it is tough to deal with that reality...but it is the reality of this situation nonetheless.

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I have no problem facing that reality.

But are guesses worthless?

If you're sure where to go, but not how to get there, it might be better to make a guess. Left or right gets you somewhere. Standing still, waiting for the fact might leave you standing for some time...

But what do you mean when you say that faith is an ethical negative?

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value of faith

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