value of faith

Not neccesarily Frank.

I have faith that I do not need to understand the world to trust it and live in it.

The question I've been asking on this thread it "Does faith have any value aside from the validity beliefs?"

Is the truth about what you place faith in important when it comes to deciding the value of faith?

For my part, I do not think so.

A scientist, for example, needs faith in his scientific method. Now, that he places faith in it may be founded in logic and experience, in the fact that his method is apparently sound.

But if he doesn't have faith in that, then he will not be able to proceed.

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Frank Apisa wrote:

A "belief" is nothing more than a guess about the unknown.

"I believe there is a God"...is a guess about the REALITY of existence.

"I believe there are no gods"...is a guess about the REALITY of existence.

"Faith" in any of those guesses...is simply stubborness, hardheadedness, and insistence that the "guess" is correct.

Well then this is not a belief to me.

I know there is a God. its not a Guess to me, it is been proven to me physically and spiritually.

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Scott777ab wrote:

Frank Apisa wrote:
A "belief" is nothing more than a guess about the unknown.

"I believe there is a God"...is a guess about the REALITY of existence.

"I believe there are no gods"...is a guess about the REALITY of existence.

"Faith" in any of those guesses...is simply stubborness, hardheadedness, and insistence that the "guess" is correct.

Well then this is not a belief to me.

I know there is a God. its not a Guess to me, it is been proven to me physically and spiritually.

Yeah. I know some kids who can say the same thing about Santa Claus.

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Frank Apisa wrote:

Scott777ab wrote:
Frank Apisa wrote:
A "belief" is nothing more than a guess about the unknown.

"I believe there is a God"...is a guess about the REALITY of existence.

"I believe there are no gods"...is a guess about the REALITY of existence.

"Faith" in any of those guesses...is simply stubborness, hardheadedness, and insistence that the "guess" is correct.

Well then this is not a belief to me.

I know there is a God. its not a Guess to me, it is been proven to me physically and spiritually.

Yeah. I know some kids who can say the same thing about Santa Claus.

You know some kids that say Santa has been proven to them physically and .....spiritually Frank? Really? How old are they? Laughing

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Did man first need to have faith or a belief in the possibility of landing on the moon before figuring out how to do so and accomplishing it?

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snood wrote:

Frank Apisa wrote:
JLNobody wrote:
I thought we already made it clear that "faith" and "belief" may even be contraries, that one may rely on beliefs BECAUSE faith is absence or that one does not need belief where faith is present. Faith MAY refer to an attitude about life conditions generally, like the faith we have that the man sitting on the opposite side of the bus will not starting shooting at you or that your tires will not blow out--or, as in the extreme case I cited that Reality (whatever that may be) is in a sense "good" because it is as it should be.
Frank, I agree that one way of using the term is as you say, the "confidence" one has in a belief, a specific attitude. But what about "faith" as a GENERAL confidence not tied to specific beliefs?

There is no such animal, JL.

You mean you guess there isn't?

lol snood you crack me up......I guess!?

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Bartikus wrote:

Frank Apisa wrote:
Scott777ab wrote:
Frank Apisa wrote:
A "belief" is nothing more than a guess about the unknown.

"I believe there is a God"...is a guess about the REALITY of existence.

"I believe there are no gods"...is a guess about the REALITY of existence.

"Faith" in any of those guesses...is simply stubborness, hardheadedness, and insistence that the "guess" is correct.

Well then this is not a belief to me.

I know there is a God. its not a Guess to me, it is been proven to me physically and spiritually.

Yeah. I know some kids who can say the same thing about Santa Claus.

You know some kids that say Santa has been proven to them physically and .....spiritually Frank? Really? How old are they?

Would that make a difference?

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Frank Apisa wrote:

Bartikus wrote:
Frank Apisa wrote:
Scott777ab wrote:
Frank Apisa wrote:
A "belief" is nothing more than a guess about the unknown.

"I believe there is a God"...is a guess about the REALITY of existence.

"I believe there are no gods"...is a guess about the REALITY of existence.

"Faith" in any of those guesses...is simply stubborness, hardheadedness, and insistence that the "guess" is correct.

Well then this is not a belief to me.

I know there is a God. its not a Guess to me, it is been proven to me physically and spiritually.

Yeah. I know some kids who can say the same thing about Santa Claus.

You know some kids that say Santa has been proven to them physically and .....spiritually Frank? Really? How old are they?

Would that make a difference?

About as much difference as your previous statement i would guess.

I have not met many kids (young enough to believe Santa) that would say they know him spiritually is all and would seem rather odd for a young child to say so IMO.

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Bartikus wrote:

Did man first need to have faith or a belief in the possibility of landing on the moon before figuring out how to do so and accomplishing it?

You apparently are the master of "so what?"

As I said very early on in this discussion...the word "belief" in a religious context...

...is a guess about the unknown.

It is a word that hides the fact that a guess is being made about the unknown...it is a pretence that theists make that their guesses have special meaning because they do not call them guesses, but rather instead "beliefs."

But they are guesses about the unknown.

The "faith" aspect is simply INSISTING that the guess is correct.

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Bartikus wrote:

About as much difference as your previous statement i would guess.

That makes no sense.

Quote:

I have not met many kids (young enough to believe Santa) that would say they know him spiritually is all and would seem rather odd for a young child to say so IMO.

Yeah...I suppose that might be so.

I guess I know a more intelligent group of kids.

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Frank Apisa wrote:

Bartikus wrote:
Did man first need to have faith or a belief in the possibility of landing on the moon before figuring out how to do so and accomplishing it?

You apparently are the master of "so what?"

As I said very early on in this discussion...the word "belief" in a religious context...

...is a guess about the unknown.

It is a word that hides the fact that a guess is being made about the unknown...it is a pretence that theists make that their guesses have special meaning because they do not call them guesses, but rather instead "beliefs."

But they are guesses about the unknown.

The "faith" aspect is simply INSISTING that the guess is correct.

Actually I was asking about landing on the moon. My question was not in a religious context. If your not sure how to answer....that's cool. I'll wait for someone else's reply.

If those are your guesses as to how faith and belief should be defined for you....... and they make the most sense to you....that's a- ok with me.

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Bartikus wrote:

Frank Apisa wrote:
Bartikus wrote:
Did man first need to have faith or a belief in the possibility of landing on the moon before figuring out how to do so and accomplishing it?

You apparently are the master of "so what?"

As I said very early on in this discussion...the word "belief" in a religious context...

...is a guess about the unknown.

It is a word that hides the fact that a guess is being made about the unknown...it is a pretence that theists make that their guesses have special meaning because they do not call them guesses, but rather instead "beliefs."

But they are guesses about the unknown.

The "faith" aspect is simply INSISTING that the guess is correct.

Actually I was asking about landing on the moon. My question was not in a religious context. If your not sure how to answer....that's cool. I'll wait for someone else's reply.

I'm assuming you meant "you're" rather than "your"...but...

...I DID ANSWER.

If you don't like my answer...just say you don't like it. Don't pretend an answer did not come.

IF you want something more specific...

...it is completely possible for the landing to have occured without any scientist ever using the words "belief" or "faith" during the lead up.

So the answer...specifically...is NO.

Where are you going from there?

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Frank Apisa wrote:

Bartikus wrote:
Frank Apisa wrote:
Bartikus wrote:
Did man first need to have faith or a belief in the possibility of landing on the moon before figuring out how to do so and accomplishing it?

You apparently are the master of "so what?"

As I said very early on in this discussion...the word "belief" in a religious context...

...is a guess about the unknown.

It is a word that hides the fact that a guess is being made about the unknown...it is a pretence that theists make that their guesses have special meaning because they do not call them guesses, but rather instead "beliefs."

But they are guesses about the unknown.

The "faith" aspect is simply INSISTING that the guess is correct.

Actually I was asking about landing on the moon. My question was not in a religious context. If your not sure how to answer....that's cool. I'll wait for someone else's reply.

I'm assuming you meant "you're" rather than "your"...but...

...I DID ANSWER.

If you don't like my answer...just say you don't like it. Don't pretend an answer did not come.

IF you want something more specific...

...it is completely possible for the landing to have occured without any scientist ever using the words "belief" or "faith" during the lead up.

So the answer...specifically...is NO.

Where are you going from there?

When man thought of the possibility of landing on the moon.....did he know
he could or was it an unknown?

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Gotta go to work.

The golfers are waiting for their starter.

They are guessing I will be there.

Don't wanna disappoint them.

Ya know...they have all that belief and faith that I will be there.

Be back later.

Play nice Bart.

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Makes since to me that long before man could fly some guy somewhere sat down and thought of it and believed it was possible.......not really knowing while being scoffed and laughed at by others.

They believed.

This is to be in no way taken in a religious context by the way. lol

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Bartikus,

Your example brings out the point that both "faith" and "belief" are not concepts isolated from daily experience. The idea of powered flight was a natural extension of gliders which in turn came from the study of hovering birds and kites. In other words , there was an evolution of belief founded on previous intellectual and practical steps which provided a network of understanding and expectation. In the same way I don't doubt that those who claim religious conviction have in some sense "tested" their faith against their social experience. The significant difference between scientific theory and other bases of "belief" is that the "experience" is "public".

The deeper issue here which escapes superficial categorization like "guesswork" is that "self" "reality" and "social convention" are inextricably linked within their own semantic network. Since "social convention" has historically been founded on a religious base it is practically impossible for some people to have any concept of "self identity" without it. This is why when such a person says "I know God exists" that "I" has no choice ! Note the expression "born again" implying that some sort of "new I" has emerged.

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bartikus wrote:

Did man first need to have faith or a belief in the possibility of landing on the moon before figuring out how to do so and accomplishing it?

Well, the curious thing is that 'reality' as we percieve it, is to a large extent shaped by our imagination.

If the general population hadn't believed that it was possible to go to the moon, the project would have been terminated, funds withdrawn.

Iraq was invaded on the 'belief' that there were nuclear weapons there.
There is no clear line between imagination and reality.

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Bartikus wrote:

[
When man thought of the possibility of landing on the moon.....did he know he could or was it an unknown?

Obviously...it was an unknown.

Then scientists tested the guesses they were making about the unknown...and landed a human on the moon.

What is your point?

Are you suggesting that if we do extend this to a religious setting...there is a similarity to the way religious folks deal with their guesses about gods?

Have they produced a god...the way NASA produced a moon landing?

What is your point?

If you are trying for an analogy...why not posit someone making a guess about whether or not there are any sentient beings on any of the planets circling the nearest 30 suns to our Sol.

Then have one person guess (call it a belief) that there are sentient beings on the 4 planet of the 6th nearest star...and that they all have 4 arms and 6 legs and mate in groups of 9.

Then have that person INSIST the guess is correct and label his/her insistence "faith"...

...then you will have something closer to a reasonable analogy.

And if you open your eyes...it will show you just how useless that kind of guessing and insistence is.

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Frank do you know that Scott777 is only making a guess in regards to the existence of God.

Do you know (that all those who say they know God exists) are nothing more than guesses? .....are you not just making a guess yourself....ye believer? lol

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Cyracuz wrote:

bartikus wrote:
Did man first need to have faith or a belief in the possibility of landing on the moon before figuring out how to do so and accomplishing it?

Well, the curious thing is that 'reality' as we percieve it, is to a large extent shaped by our imagination.

If the general population hadn't believed that it was possible to go to the moon, the project would have been terminated, funds withdrawn.

Iraq was invaded on the 'belief' that there were nuclear weapons there.
There is no clear line between imagination and reality.

Iraq was invaded on the widely held 'belief' that there were WMD's there.

Which include chemical and biological weapons as well. Like Sarin gas. lol

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