value of faith

Eorl wrote:

Having answers to everything is a whole other discussion.

Science is looking at the situation where you notice that eveytime you add 2 apples to 3 apples you get 5 apples. You wonder if it always happens that way. So you test it, you discover it to be true.

Faith is when you say "please let 5 apples magically appear on my table" and you get home and find 5 apples (the results of your little sisters earlier science experiment) but you simply decide your magic worked.

Actually Eorl it's not really a whole different discussion. I think it's quite relevant to this one considering two factors: #1 "guesswork" was brought up... #2 Religion and Science appear to be the two influencing factors to the majority of people discussing such things and both contain "guesswork". Don't you think?

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The "guesswork" of science is based on available data. The guesswork of blind faith is based on no data at all.

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Cyracuz wrote:

eorl wrote:
For you to suggest that faith and science are equal parts guesswork is like saying "Alice's Wonderland" and "Jamaica" are both imaginary places.

Both are imaginary places. The thing is that there are no clear boundaries between one place and another. All such boundaries are imagined, and there really is just 'one place'. It is we who have subdivided it into many places.

That's very unhelpful, and a bit of philosophical hilarity. If someone tells me there is a Jamaica, and gives me nautical charts, i can get there by flying or sailing using standard navigational technique. Are you willing to suggest that the same is true for Alice's "Wonderland?"

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Setanta wrote:

The "guesswork" of science is based on available data. The guesswork of blind faith is based on no data at all.

I disagree.

How can it be with science when they can't answer everything? That alone says to me that not all data is available to answer their guesswork. Though I'm sure they suppose it will be at some point. However, I seriously doubt that science will ever be able to answer everything.

Now, I do agree with the blind faith being based on no data though. I don't suppose it could be called blind faith if it wasn't... LOL

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In the first place, only adherents of a religious faith claim to have all the answers, but they fail signally to demonstrate the case. No science doesn't have all the answers because it has not amassed all the data--religious faith has absolutely no data. Which makes it rather silly of you to attempt to claim that they are equivalent but polar opposite bases for a world view.

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Hold on though setanta... I adhere to a "religious faith"... I think... but I don't claim to have all the answers. Or even that there will ever be a time I would be able to. I am able to give merit to science for the majority of the answers it has provided, though there are some things that I consider to be just good guesswork on their part. All I'm really trying to demonstrate here is that there is NOTHING that provides all the answers, or ever will even. At no point have I said that I think they are equivalent. Eorl thought that is what I was implying and I failed to correct him on that. I merely said I think that both are relevant to this discussion based on the reasoning I listed.

Religious faith does have data:

2 information output by a sensing device or organ that includes both useful and irrelevant or redundant information and must be processed to be meaningful

However, for some in this "form" of "data" fails to be processed to be meaningful. Therefore it would not be considered by them to be "data" since that is one of the requirements.

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da·ta (dā'tə, dăt'ə, dä'tə) pl. n. (used with a sing. or pl. verb)

1. Factual information, especially information organized for analysis or used to reason or make decisions.
2. Computer Science. Numerical or other information represented in a form suitable for processing by computer.
3. Values derived from scientific experiments.
4. Plural of datum

(definition courtesy of Answers-dot-com)

Precisely what factual information is it that you are willing to assert underpin religious faith?

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setanta wrote:

That's very unhelpful, and a bit of philosophical hilarity. If someone tells me there is a Jamaica, and gives me nautical charts, i can get there by flying or sailing using standard navigational technique. Are you willing to suggest that the same is true for Alice's "Wonderland?"

No, you just need the story of Alice in wonderland to travel to wonderland.. Smile

But I see your point. This analogy attempts to mix together different 'levels of reality', and so it is confusing and not very accurate.

But the charts and the coordinates you speak of are also imaginary.

Anyway, the claim I made was in reply to eorl's statement:

Quote:

For you to suggest that faith and science are equal parts guesswork is like saying "Alice's Wonderland" and "Jamaica" are both imaginary places.

Faith is not guesswork. Faith is not beliefs. Beliefs are essentially unscientific prediction, and it has more similarities to science in that both stem from curiosity.

If any, they are the counterparts. Faith and curiosity.
They are not words or thoughts, but something that cause these things to happen.

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The "scientific" definition I presume?

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Cyracuz wrote:

setanta wrote:
That's very unhelpful, and a bit of philosophical hilarity. If someone tells me there is a Jamaica, and gives me nautical charts, i can get there by flying or sailing using standard navigational technique. Are you willing to suggest that the same is true for Alice's "Wonderland?"

No, you just need the story of Alice in wonderland to travel to wonderland..

But I see your point. This analogy attempts to mix together different 'levels of reality', and so it is confusing and not very accurate.

But the charts and the coordinates you speak of are also imaginary.

Anyway, the claim I made was in reply to eorl's statement:

Quote:
For you to suggest that faith and science are equal parts guesswork is like saying "Alice's Wonderland" and "Jamaica" are both imaginary places.

Faith is not guesswork. Faith is not beliefs. Beliefs are essentially unscientific prediction, and it has more similarities to science in that both stem from curiosity.

If any, they are the counterparts. Faith and curiosity.
They are not words or thoughts, but something that cause these things to happen.

Jamaica may be an arbitrarily chosen name, but the island exists and can be located in time/space. The same is not true of "Wonderland." Your remarks about "levels of reality" is just philosophical babble, which i am entitled to, and intend to disregard. You are making statements from authroity, an authority which i have no reason to assume you possess.

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Cyracuz wrote:

eorl wrote:
For you to suggest that faith and science are equal parts guesswork is like saying "Alice's Wonderland" and "Jamaica" are both imaginary places.

Both are imaginary places. The thing is that there are no clear boundaries between one place and another. All such boundaries are imagined, and there really is just 'one place'. It is we who have subdivided it into many places.

You made my point here very well Cyracuz.

Language can be twisted to effectively state that both places are equally imaginary, as you have just done. (If your agent booked you a gig playing in a Jamaican resort for 4 weeks you might well accept it and expect to fly there. The offer of a similar gig in Wonderland you would assume to be an offer to purchase extremely dangerous drugs.)

The argument that science and religion are equally "guesswork" is a similar piece of complete bullshit.

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hephzibah wrote:

Eorl wrote:
Having answers to everything is a whole other discussion.

Science is looking at the situation where you notice that eveytime you add 2 apples to 3 apples you get 5 apples. You wonder if it always happens that way. So you test it, you discover it to be true.

Faith is when you say "please let 5 apples magically appear on my table" and you get home and find 5 apples (the results of your little sisters earlier science experiment) but you simply decide your magic worked.

Actually Eorl it's not really a whole different discussion. I think it's quite relevant to this one considering two factors: #1 "guesswork" was brought up... #2 Religion and Science appear to be the two influencing factors to the majority of people discussing such things and both contain "guesswork". Don't you think?

See the above response to Cyracuz. New York and bread both contain flour, don't you think?

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What determines the value of faith?

1. For the sake of the debate whether you agree or disagree we will assume for this question that there is something out there to have faith in or on.

2. Just for the sake of the debate we will also say that there is only three things to have faith in or on.
a. God.
b. Ourselves.
c. Satan.

a. The Value of faith in God is determined by wether or not we follow or don't follow what that God wants.
b. The value of faith in ourselves is determined by what we find that gives us pleasure, whether it be mental, or physical. Spiritual pleasure is left out because that would require the belief in a spirit.
c. The value of faith in satan would be determined I guess by the ill gotten possessions that one would aquire.

So like I have once already said in another post:

The value of faith is determined by

What and/or who you believe in.

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Scott it's pretty obvious that IF there really are gods out there, then faith in them and doing what they want has obvious benefits.

but it's a big IF.

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Maybe the true value of faith lies in the comfort it can bring.

Simply 'having faith' that things will turn out in an adverse and difficult situation takes a tremendous intellectual load off. Perhaps those with a heightened sense of their own mortality turn to this naturalistic defense mechanism to deal with it.This would explain the high rate of conversions among those that come close to death, via drug abuse, alcoholism, an accident, et al.

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Eorl wrote:

hephzibah wrote:
Eorl wrote:
Having answers to everything is a whole other discussion.

Science is looking at the situation where you notice that eveytime you add 2 apples to 3 apples you get 5 apples. You wonder if it always happens that way. So you test it, you discover it to be true.

Faith is when you say "please let 5 apples magically appear on my table" and you get home and find 5 apples (the results of your little sisters earlier science experiment) but you simply decide your magic worked.

Actually Eorl it's not really a whole different discussion. I think it's quite relevant to this one considering two factors: #1 "guesswork" was brought up... #2 Religion and Science appear to be the two influencing factors to the majority of people discussing such things and both contain "guesswork". Don't you think?

See the above response to Cyracuz. New York and bread both contain flour, don't you think?

Once again, at no point have I said that that science and religion are equally "guesswork". I asked you:

Quote:

So science isn't "guessing" with any of the theory's it presents?

To which you replied:

Quote:

No.

Do scientists make guesses about things? Yes. Then they apply the tool of the scientific method to determine the facts.

For you to suggest that faith and science are equal parts guesswork is like saying "Alice's Wonderland" and "Jamaica" are both imaginary places. It can be made true if you choose to twist the language enough, but the fact and fantasy are still obvious.

To which I replied:

Quote:

No no no, I'm not trying to say that at all. I'm not trying to twist anything here. Honest. But science doesn't have an answer for everything, right? So, what are "theory's" then? If they aren't "guesses" that is...

Then having thought about it I said:

Quote:

Actually skip that last post of mine and let me rephrase that. Science doesn't have an answer for everything right? So how then do we determine whether it's really equal parts of guesswork or not?

Again... not saying they ARE equal parts but rather asking how we determine if they are or not...

Alright? Sheesh...

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fresco wrote:

JLN,

Your distinction between "faith" and "belief" is a nice one. The "value" of such "faith" would be in terms of both psychological security and direction.
"Belief" may apply to direction but lacks the essence of security.

I have been struggling with this whole 'faith' monster.

I do feel it is about psychological security. Very much so.

It allows us to try. It can prevent depression. It can give our mind a relaxant so we don't burn out over-analyzing or treading irrelevent questions.

It can bring relief to a broken heart. It can allow for room to love someone you may otherwise detest and find 1 billion rational reasons dismiss/destroy.

Perhaps faith also is essential, or valuable, to emotional well-being as well.

Faith can be shattered by cruelty/violence/negative experience. It can blossom and grow with Love from another...or the process of falling in love.

Faith and Trust?

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hephzibah wrote:

Again... not saying they ARE equal parts but rather asking how we determine if they are or not...

Alright? Sheesh...

I think you were actually implying it, as it IS an extremely common ploy of the "faithful" to do so, and I had no intention of letting it slide, however......to answer your question....

We determine by definition. Science is not guesswork. Faith is.

From Wiki: on SCIENCE

Quote:

Scientists maintain that scientific investigation must adhere to the scientific method, a process for evaluating empirical knowledge which explains observable events in nature as a result of natural causes, rejecting supernatural notions.

From Wiki: on FAITH

Quote:

The object of faith can be a person (or even an inanimate object or state of affairs) or a proposition (or body of propositions, such as a religious credo). In each case, however, faith is in an aspect of the object and cannot be logically proven or objectively known. Faith can mean believing unconditionally

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Forget about Jamaica and Wonderland . I was waay out on a limb there, and the limb broke with nothing resolved Smile

Eorl, to clarify my position:

You seem to be under the impression that beliefs are a product of faith, in the same way that fact is a product of scientific method.

I believe it is not so.

Beliefs are essentially facts proposed that have failed under the scrutiny the scientific method, or that have never been tested.
There are beliefs that sound ridiculous, and there are those who are not so easy to spot.

The thing is that 'fact' and 'belief' are interchangable, as history shows.

Faith is something else entirely, and it is equally important in both science and religion.

Scott, to say that the value of faith is determined by who/what you believe in is the same as saying that the value of a house is determined by who lives in it.
We all know that is not so. The value of a house is that someone CAN live in it. (economical value aside).

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A "belief" is nothing more than a guess about the unknown.

"I believe there is a God"...is a guess about the REALITY of existence.

"I believe there are no gods"...is a guess about the REALITY of existence.

"Faith" in any of those guesses...is simply stubborness, hardheadedness, and insistence that the "guess" is correct.

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value of faith

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