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Thoughts on gun control

 
 
Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Thu 5 Oct, 2006 09:56 am
hamburger wrote:
... but i prefer to know who carries a firearm and might be a possible threat to my safety - would it not be an unarmed citizen's right to be able to tell ?

No it wouldn't, because predators, too, want to know who carries guns, so makes unattractive victims. Notice that when Mr. Roberts felt the urge to molest and kill little girls, he didn't just seek out any random girl. He deliberately chose girls in a community of unarmed pacifists, where he knew nobody could effectively protect the victims. Therefore, while I understand your concern, on balance I prefer concealed weapons over openly carried ones.
0 Replies
 
hamburger
 
  1  
Reply Thu 5 Oct, 2006 10:10 am
thomas wrote :
"No it wouldn't, because predators, too, want to know who carries guns, so makes unattractive victims. Notice that when Mr. Roberts felt the urge to molest and kill little girls, he didn't just seek out any random girl. He deliberately chose girls in a community of unarmed pacifists, where he knew nobody could effectively protect the victims. Therefore, while I understand your concern, on balance I prefer concealed weapons over openly carried ones. "
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so you seem to be reasonably sure the fellow would have been just as murderous with a knife ?
do you also think that the mennonites should start arming themselves ?
perhaps i'll rustle up an old "panzerfaust" (bazooka) , that should give me a measure of protection .
my brother , when encountering a bad driver , thought he should be allowed to drive a tank (i think he liked the "leopard") , perhaps he was right ).
or do you think that would not be a proper way to deal with bad drivers ?
hbg
0 Replies
 
cjhsa
 
  1  
Reply Thu 5 Oct, 2006 10:29 am
Concealed carry laws work very well. I every state where they've been enacted, violent crime, especially against women, has dropped dramatically without a shot being fired.

Not knowing who might be armed is a effective deterrent to would be criminals.
0 Replies
 
dyslexia
 
  1  
Reply Thu 5 Oct, 2006 10:48 am
Interesting topic, Thoughts on gun control and the irony of shiksa posting a comment as if he/she had thoughts. Next thing to happen might me mysteryman or possum posting on any thread saying "I think."
0 Replies
 
Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Thu 5 Oct, 2006 10:57 am
hamburger wrote:
so you seem to be reasonably sure the fellow would have been just as murderous with a knife ?

Why not? After all, Mohammed Atta and friends managed to murder about 3,000 people armed with box cutters only.

hamburger wrote:
do you also think that the mennonites should start arming themselves ?

They "should" do whatever they want to. If they want to arm themselves, they certainly have the right to do this.

hamburger wrote:
perhaps i'll rustle up an old "panzerfaust" (bazooka) , that should give me a measure of protection.

I never claimed the right to bear arms has no limits. I also never claimed that about the right to free speech, and many other items on the bill of rights.
0 Replies
 
cjhsa
 
  1  
Reply Thu 5 Oct, 2006 11:02 am
dyslexia wrote:
Interesting topic, Thoughts on gun control and the irony of shiksa posting a comment as if he/she had thoughts. Next thing to happen might me mysteryman or possum posting on any thread saying "I think."


Why don't you go shave or something? You might find yourself.
0 Replies
 
dyslexia
 
  1  
Reply Thu 5 Oct, 2006 11:11 am
cjhsa wrote:
dyslexia wrote:
Interesting topic, Thoughts on gun control and the irony of shiksa posting a comment as if he/she had thoughts. Next thing to happen might me mysteryman or possum posting on any thread saying "I think."


Why don't you go shave or something? You might find yourself.

Why don't you just have a good fart, it might clear your brain.
0 Replies
 
Intrepid
 
  1  
Reply Thu 5 Oct, 2006 11:12 am
cjhsa wrote:
Concealed carry laws work very well. I every state where they've been enacted, violent crime, especially against women, has dropped dramatically without a shot being fired.

Not knowing who might be armed is a effective deterrent to would be criminals.


What do your stats say about other crimes increasing?
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Thu 5 Oct, 2006 12:15 pm
Intrepid wrote:
cjhsa wrote:
Concealed carry laws work very well. I every state where they've been enacted, violent crime, especially against women, has dropped dramatically without a shot being fired.

Not knowing who might be armed is a effective deterrent to would be criminals.


What do your stats say about other crimes increasing?


In a link posted yesterday, I think you'll find those stats. To be best of my knowledge, violent crimes of all types have dropped in states with concealed carry laws. Bear in mind, that those qualifying for a concealed carry license have usually undergone a background check and have had some dedicated instruction in use of the weapon. It is possible somewhere that somebody with a concealed carry license has committed a crime with their concealed weapon, but I am unaware of any such incident. Given the rabid passion with which the anti-gun people hate the concealed carry law, you can beat it would have been widely publicized if such an incident had occurred.

Bear in mind it is only crimes committed with firearms that make front page news. The many many MANY occasions where somebody was able to use a firearm to prevent a crime, especially a crime against themselves, or the crimes averted purely because of the possible or probable presence of defensive firewarms do not usually make the front page news.
0 Replies
 
cjhsa
 
  1  
Reply Thu 5 Oct, 2006 12:43 pm
dyslexia wrote:

Why don't you just have a good fart, it might clear your brain.


I tried that at your suggestion and my dsylexia seems to have cleared up!!!
0 Replies
 
snood
 
  1  
Reply Thu 5 Oct, 2006 01:00 pm
You two should PM each other all those cute little forget-me-nots.
0 Replies
 
cjhsa
 
  1  
Reply Thu 5 Oct, 2006 01:01 pm
Unlike you two, I don't suffer from PMs.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Thu 5 Oct, 2006 01:05 pm
We have here concealed carry laws as well as you have to register your weapon. (About 25,000 registered weapons in our county [300,000 inhabitants].)

If a legally owned weapon is used, it's usually in news as well - any death/attack etc (especially with weapons), no matter if legal or criminal has to be investigated by the prosecution.
0 Replies
 
snood
 
  1  
Reply Thu 5 Oct, 2006 01:15 pm
Oh. Stop it cjhsa. Such jocularity. It is laughter itself. My sides. Stop it.
0 Replies
 
Intrepid
 
  1  
Reply Thu 5 Oct, 2006 01:29 pm
Foxfyre wrote:
Intrepid wrote:
cjhsa wrote:
Concealed carry laws work very well. I every state where they've been enacted, violent crime, especially against women, has dropped dramatically without a shot being fired.

Not knowing who might be armed is a effective deterrent to would be criminals.


What do your stats say about other crimes increasing?


In a link posted yesterday, I think you'll find those stats. To be best of my knowledge, violent crimes of all types have dropped in states with concealed carry laws. Bear in mind, that those qualifying for a concealed carry license have usually undergone a background check and have had some dedicated instruction in use of the weapon. It is possible somewhere that somebody with a concealed carry license has committed a crime with their concealed weapon, but I am unaware of any such incident. Given the rabid passion with which the anti-gun people hate the concealed carry law, you can beat it would have been widely publicized if such an incident had occurred.

Bear in mind it is only crimes committed with firearms that make front page news. The many many MANY occasions where somebody was able to use a firearm to prevent a crime, especially a crime against themselves, or the crimes averted purely because of the possible or probable presence of defensive firewarms do not usually make the front page news.


Thanks for your interest, but that did not answer the question that I asked.
0 Replies
 
Intrepid
 
  1  
Reply Thu 5 Oct, 2006 01:30 pm
cjhsa wrote:
Unlike you two, I don't suffer from PMs.


I suppose we can be thankful for small mercies.
0 Replies
 
hamburger
 
  1  
Reply Thu 5 Oct, 2006 01:42 pm
foxfire wrote :
"The many many MANY occasions where somebody was able to use a firearm to prevent a crime, especially a crime against themselves, or the crimes averted purely because of the possible or probable presence of defensive firewarms do not usually make the front page news. "

wow !
are the united states truly such a dangerous place that only concealed firearms possession is keeping crimes down ?
it would seem that crimes would therefore mushroom ("many many MANY occasions" ) , if concealed firearms were not allowed ?
i'm still wondering why there already is such a high crime rate in the united states .
i can understand that citizens in such countries as afghanistan feel a need to carry guns - they usually carry them openly - , but in the good old united states ?

i am truly perplexed - even though i've lived within an hour's drive of the border !
hbg
hbg
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Thu 5 Oct, 2006 02:22 pm
hamburger wrote:
foxfire wrote :
"The many many MANY occasions where somebody was able to use a firearm to prevent a crime, especially a crime against themselves, or the crimes averted purely because of the possible or probable presence of defensive firewarms do not usually make the front page news. "

wow !
are the united states truly such a dangerous place that only concealed firearms possession is keeping crimes down ?
it would seem that crimes would therefore mushroom ("many many MANY occasions" ) , if concealed firearms were not allowed ?
i'm still wondering why there already is such a high crime rate in the united states .
i can understand that citizens in such countries as afghanistan feel a need to carry guns - they usually carry them openly - , but in the good old united states ?

i am truly perplexed - even though i've lived within an hour's drive of the border !
hbg
hbg


IMO. . . .

No, all the statistics can't be attributed to concealed carry. But the fact is that all the statistics indicate a reduction in violent crimes in states that have concealed carry laws. And the fact is that you see only the crimes that are reported. You aren't seeing much about crimes that were averted. That was true before some states adopted concealed carry laws and is true after some states adopted concealed carry laws.

And yes, the United States is a more dangerous place than it was 40 or 50 years ago. That can be attributed to stepped up viscious gang activity some of which is home grown and some which is fueled by criminal element among illegal aliens in this country. It is further attributed, I believe, to fewer traditional families, to a generation less attached to the Church, and a general anti-establishment influence.

It has nothing to do with the number of guns available to the people, however. It has to do with there being more people who have little or no conscience about doing bad things.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Fri 6 Oct, 2006 07:39 am
We always think of school shootings as being an American thing, but apparently it happens other places too. This from the BBC from some years ago. Bear in mind that this creep killed 16 children and a teacher. And the number of victims suggests that he probably took time to reload. Had somebody in the school had a weapon, at least some of the deaths might have been averted.

Monday, 16 July, 2001, 04:50 GMT 05:50 UK
Handgun crime 'up' despite ban
Handguns were banned following the Dunblane massacre

A new study suggests the use of handguns in crime rose by 40% in the two years after the weapons were banned.
The research, commissioned by the Countryside Alliance's Campaign for Shooting, has concluded that existing laws are targeting legitimate users of firearms rather than criminals.

The ban on ownership of handguns was introduced in 1997 as a result of the Dunblane massacre, when Thomas Hamilton opened fire at a primary school leaving 16 children and their teacher dead.


But the report suggests that despite the restrictions on ownership the use of handguns in crime is rising.

The Centre for Defence Studies at Kings College in London, which carried out the research, said the number of crimes in which a handgun was reported increased from 2,648 in 1997/98 to 3,685 in 1999/2000.

It also said there was no link between high levels of gun crime and areas where there were still high levels of lawful gun possession.

Of the 20 police areas with the lowest number of legally held firearms, 10 had an above average level of gun crime.

And of the 20 police areas with the highest levels of legally held guns only two had armed crime levels above the average.

Smuggling

The campaign's director, David Bredin, said: "It is crystal clear from the research that the existing gun laws do not lead to crime reduction and a safer place.

"Policy makers have targeted the legitimate sporting and farming communities with ever-tighter laws but the research clearly demonstrates that it is illegal guns which are the real threat to public safety."

He said the rise was largely down to successful smuggling of illegal guns into the country.

Weapons have even been disguised as key rings no larger than a matchbox to get them in, he said.

Other sources of guns include battlefield trophies brought back by soldiers, the illegal conversion of replica firearms including blank firing pistols and the reactivation of weapons which had been deactivated.

Ammunition

Examples of illegally manufactured guns include screwdrivers being adapted to fire off one round, he said.

The Metropolitan Police said its official figures showed a 20% drop in armed robberies of commercial premises between April and July this year, compared with the same period last year.

A Scotland Yard spokesman said that, since April 2001, the Flying Squad has arrested 39 people in connection with 34 armed incidents and seized 52 weapons.

Operation Trident, which investigates "black on black" shootings in the UK, has made more than 300 arrests, recovered 100 firearms and 1,500 rounds of ammunition since it was established a year ago.

The Home Office said measures were being taken to tackle handgun crime, including an intensified effort against illegally smuggled weapons.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/1440764.stm

______________________________________________________

On another site I poke around in, there is an interesting debate underway on whether it is time to arm teachers. It has prompted some interesting comments.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Fri 6 Oct, 2006 08:22 am
I don't know to what you are referring here, since a link to the following of your response is missing:

Bear in mind that this creep killed 16 children and a teacher. And the number of victims suggests that he probably took time to reload. Had somebody in the school had a weapon, at least some of the deaths might have been averted

If, however, you are referring to the Dunblane Massacer from March 13, 1996 (16 children and one teacher weren't killed otherwise in the UK), you ... sorry for the pun ... shot yourself in the knee:

Quote:
Mrs. Ann Pearson, a friend of some of the bereaved families, founded a very widely supported campaign, named the Snowdrop Petition (because March is snowdrop time in Scotland), which gained 705,000 signatures in support, and was successful in pressing Parliament, and the then-current Conservative government into introducing a ban on all cartridge ammunition handguns with the exception of .22 calibre single-shot weapons. Following the 1997 General Election, the Labour government of Tony Blair introduced the Firearms (Amendment) (No. 2) Act 1997, banning the remaining .22 cartridge handguns, and leaving only muzzle-loading and historic handguns legal.
0 Replies
 
 

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