Thoughts on gun control

dlowan wrote:

Sadly, a few mad people are able to intimidate their government.

If it's only a few mad people, it should be easy for gun control advocates to get the Second Amendment repealed. Why don't they, in your opinion?

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John R. Lott Jr. and Eli Lehrer wrote:

Britain has already banned just about every type of weapon that a criminal might want to use. Handguns were made illegal in 1997, and nearly every other firearm (even BB guns) is now subject to a complex regulatory regime.

Twice As Dangerous

The laws didn't do what was claimed. The government just reported that gun crime in England and Wales nearly doubled in the four years from 1998-99 to 2002-03. The serious violent crime rate soared by 64%, and overall violent crime by 118%.

Interesting take. I took a quick look at the British Crime Survey (BCS), published by the Home Office. Here's what the statistics say:

Quote:

'More serious violence' - Long-term national recorded crime trend

Seems that Lott Jr. and Lehrer are right. Guns where banned, crime rate went up. (Uhm. Kind of. But anyway.)
But wait! What's that tiny print next to the statistic?

The British Crime Survey wrote:

The NCRS impact

* In April 2002, the National Crime Recording Standard (NCRS) was introduced across police forces. Its purpose is:

o to promote greater consistency in how police record crime
o to take a more victim-led approach in recording crime - by recording alleged offences, as well as evidence-based ones

* In many cases, the NCRS has led to an increase in recorded crime figures, making it look like more crimes were committed, when that might not be the case.
* For a more accurate picture of violent crime trends across England & Wales, see 'Violent crime - British Crime Survey data'.

A look at the referenced statistics about 'Violent crime - British Crime Survey data' shows this picture:

Quote:

But I see how using seletive data probably suits Lott's and Lehrer's case better than presenting a more complete picture....

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old europe :
thanks for your post and showing the graph .
of course , you and i , and many others know the old saying :
"don't confuse me with the facts ; i've got my mind made up already " .
pretty sad ... but - unfortunately - the truth ; all we have to do is watch the news and we'll hear it everyday !
hbg Sad

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When my home is invaded by criminals, I don't care if they have guns, knives, bats, or swords. I'm going to shoot them.

Unarmed people aren't citizens, they are subjects, likely to be subjected to whatever those in a position of power over them wish. No thanks.

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cjhsa wrote:

When my home is invaded by criminals, I don't care if they have guns, knives, bats, or swords[...]

Does this happen a lot? Jeez, maybe you should move to a safer place!

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I stay in many remote locations. Still, even in high density housing, it's unlikely your neighbor will hear your screams. Of if they do, they may get turned on by them.

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Millions of crimes have been prevented or stopped by private citizens carrying concealed firearms in the U.S. in the past five years. CCW works. Don't leave home without it.

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Millions?

I wonder where that stat comes from. My guess is, somewhere between your knees and your stomach.

Cycloptichorn

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John R. Lott Jr. and Eli Lehrer wrote:

Britain has already banned just about every type of weapon that a criminal might want to use. Handguns were made illegal in 1997

Quote:

If banning guns decreases crime, what caused the steep decrease in crime from 1995 to 1997?

It seems to me that the decrease in crime started before the banning of guns which would make me think that banning guns are not the sole reason for decreased crime (if it has anything to do with decreased crime)? In fact, from your graph, the decrease in crime was less the two years following the banning of guns, than the two years preceeding the banning of guns.

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why should firearms be "concealed" ?
if people are carrying firearms openly displayed , at least it would give me a chance to stay away from them .
since the police carry their firearms openly , what would be wrong with having citizens carry their firearms openly too ?

i see the words "founding fathers" being dragged up often in these discussions ; i guess it refers to the "militia" in olden days that were ready to defend the country .
while i'm not absolutely sure , i wonder if it was their custom to carry their weapons "concealed" ?
any pix i've ever seen , the militia carried their guns quite openly .
usually they also wore some kind of uniform .
hbg

http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Ranch/1545/page48.jpg

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thomas :
the article referenced will give some idea of the strenght of the gun lobby - i imagine you are already aware of it , aren't you ?
what's that song : "money makes the world go 'round" -
or the saying : "show me the money ... ".
hbg

...GUN CONTROL VZ. GUN RIGHTS...

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old europe wrote:

John R. Lott Jr. and Eli Lehrer wrote:
Britain has already banned just about every type of weapon that a criminal might want to use. Handguns were made illegal in 1997, and nearly every other firearm (even BB guns) is now subject to a complex regulatory regime.

Twice As Dangerous

The laws didn't do what was claimed. The government just reported that gun crime in England and Wales nearly doubled in the four years from 1998-99 to 2002-03. The serious violent crime rate soared by 64%, and overall violent crime by 118%.

Interesting take. I took a quick look at the British Crime Survey (BCS), published by the Home Office. Here's what the statistics say:

Quote:
'More serious violence' - Long-term national recorded crime trend

Seems that Lott Jr. and Lehrer are right. Guns where banned, crime rate went up. (Uhm. Kind of. But anyway.)
But wait! What's that tiny print next to the statistic?

The British Crime Survey wrote:
The NCRS impact

* In April 2002, the National Crime Recording Standard (NCRS) was introduced across police forces. Its purpose is:

o to promote greater consistency in how police record crime
o to take a more victim-led approach in recording crime - by recording alleged offences, as well as evidence-based ones

* In many cases, the NCRS has led to an increase in recorded crime figures, making it look like more crimes were committed, when that might not be the case.
* For a more accurate picture of violent crime trends across England & Wales, see 'Violent crime - British Crime Survey data'.

A look at the referenced statistics about 'Violent crime - British Crime Survey data' shows this picture:

Quote:

But I see how using seletive data probably suits Lott's and Lehrer's case better than presenting a more complete picture....

Looking at the BCS graph, and considering that Britan's most strict gun control law went into effect in 1997, it would strongly appear the violent crime was already substantially on its way down from 1995 to 1997, so can you really correlate the gun control with the reduction in violent crime? Also, as the violent crime fell and then pretty well evened out at a level marginally higher than it was in 1981, can you say that Britain is safer because it has strict gun control laws?

There are all manner of ways to interpret these things.

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Some states require concealed carry for citizens, at least in public. On private land and in some states you can carry openly.

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hamburger wrote:

thomas :
the article referenced will give some idea of the strenght of the gun lobby - i imagine you are already aware of it , aren't you ?
what's that song : "money makes the world go 'round" -
or the saying : "show me the money ... ".

Thanks for the article, hamburger, but $20 million in campaign contributions just isn't the kind of money that would let "only a few mad people" prevail over a vast majority of non-crazy American. That's wishful thinking by the gun control lobby. Gun ownership as a rule has broad support among Americans. The point in dispute is how far the principle should extend. Hand guns, such as the one Mr. Roberts killed Amish girls with, are supported by a broad majority of Americans.

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Wow, that's one scary lady, with the blue handbag and the paintbrush.

I read recently about gun control problems in Switzerland. Every able-bodied male is trained for the army, and all have to keep their army rifle at home (just in case the Italians invade). Every home thus has at least one efficient modern firearm.

Plenty of people commit suicide, and yes Thomas, they usually use their rifle. Suggestions to keep the guns in central stores and not in private homes have, however, not met with much approval so far. Seemingly, having a firearm is a mark of maleness and "you're not a proper man without a gun".

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It's not about that at all, it's about the right to do so. Since you've given yours up, you seem to have forgotten the prconcept.

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McTag wrote:

I read recently about gun control problems in Switzerland. Every able-bodied male is trained for the army, and all have to keep their army rifle at home (just in case the Italians invade). Every home thus has at least one efficient modern firearm.

Switzerland is second - according to a study from Basle university - in suicides with firearms .... after the USA. (Between 1992 and 1996 18% of suicides in both Basle cantons [states] were done with private and 12% with army weapons.)
On the other hand, nearly all suicides in the German forces (about 45 per year) happen to be done with military firearms ...

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McTag wrote:

Seemingly, having a firearm is a mark of maleness and "you're not a proper man without a gun".

I once heard in a different context that the gun industry's fastest growing clientele is (sub-) urban women who buy guns for personal self-defense. Assuming this is true, would you say those women are worried about their maleness too?

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cjhsa wrote:

It's not about that at all, it's about the right to do so. Since you've given yours up, you seem to have forgotten the prconcept.

Every once in a jubilee year, I agree with you, cjhsa. Our constitution here in Germany proclaims a right to resistence when our government turns tyrannical. But it remains moot about how the people are supposed to resist after our government has disarmed them. I much prefer the nuts-and-bolts approach of your Second Amendment.

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I'm still wondering what a "prconcept" is, but I kinda like word. Wink

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Thoughts on gun control

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