Antwone Fisher

I wonder if that speech was used to save time on the film. If the reconciliation were acted out, I would have wanted more than just a look; I would have wanted a whole scene so I could learn more about their problems and the resolution of them. I'd bet money that the scene was written and/or filmed and then cut.

You're probably right, mac11. They leave so much of the whole story on the cutting room floor.
It was a terrific film. We bought the dvd without seeing it, certain that it was a keeper. What really struck me about this movie was the inclusion of the sexual abuse and how it actually affected him as a young man. I'd never seen that portrayed before in film. Not that I can remember. Usually in movies there are women who were abused as children and grow up with sexual problems, but never men. I was impressed that this young man, Antwon Fisher, was man enough to include this extremely difficult aspect of his life in his story. It was an education.

Ending
Mac and Sweet, This is no big deal with me, but I thought the resolution of Antwon's troubles were the important thing. It was obvious that Washington and his wife were growing apart. That was shown in several scenes (Like when she walked into his study with her bathrobe gaping open, and he put her off with the I'm busy routine, and she pulled the robe shut, I wanted to yell out, get up off your dead butt, kiss her, and go on up stairs with her). I wanted them back together. Throughout the whole movie there was no hint of the real problem as explained by Washington in the final minute of the film. All I needed to make me feel good was to see them look into each others eyes, give a passionate hug, and I'd have known they made it up, whatever the problem was. As it worked out in the movie, all at once, out of nowhere, right at the end, when the curtain was about to fall, Washington comes on with this, for me, unneeded explanation of what the problem really was and how it was solved.

If you all happen to see the film again, at some point in the future, keep this in mind and see what you think. Then we can have another whole thread.

One thing shown in this film that had never occurred to me before was that some of the abusive punishments engaged in by some blacks are learned behaviors originating in the way whites treated blacks during the slavery years, and that these behaviors were passed on to the present day. Wow.

I see your point, Hazlitt. The film was about Antwone, and it wouldn't have taken much to show us that the shrink's problems had been resolved.

"another whole thread", about ...what? Conflict resolution in movies, or this particular bugaboo you found in "Fisher"?

Hazlitt: excellent point! I may see the film again and be sure to take more notice. Apparently I got carried away and didn't observe with quite the critical eye I should have. That's sort of the way I am. If I'm loving something, I let me heart rule my head. In fact, as I write this, I believe I will watch it again and attempt to use my logic as well as my emotions. Thank you for your good explanation!

Alrighty, then. It is 8:30 a.m. PT as I start this post. I just finished watching AF again, so take a look at when I get through editing and actually "Submit" my message because it will probably take me several "Previews" before I am satisfied ...

After seeing it this 2nd time (and looking forward to a 3rd viewing), I have to respectfully say to Hazlitt: NO! NO! NO!

I believe the end-of-the movie speech delivered by Denzel was absolutely appropriate. You are correct when you say this is the story about Antwone, however, this story has a universality to it that I believe you might be missing simply due to your general dislike of these types of speeches.

Some universal truths about the human condition are: feeling like an outsider, which I probably see more because being Jewish (as I am) allows me to view things from an outsider's POV just as AF views things from a Black POV; being abandoned, which I probably see because being adopted (as I was) generally gives one that feeling as well, but I am certain others feel some sense of abandonment or alienation - it all depends on the degree; being angry, which while AF acted out directly and I deal with by being overly sensitive and thinking I am sad when I am actually angry - surely, people can identify with that to varying degrees as well. The movie is about resolution, needing to find roots, and finally forgiving/accepting so one can move on in life; even if you grow up knowing your roots, doesn't everyone have to deal with forgiving and acceptance in order to better move on with the business of living?

No, Snood, there isn't a need for another thread on this movie; there probably is a need for everyone who saw it to watch it again, however.

Now, specific to Black people, the slave mentality wherein some stay locked into a sort of white-defined view of the world is most sad, but I also can see that in a lesser degree in every single minority group and as well with white people who identify with what the media constantly tells everyone is the ideal by which to measure yourself. It, however, is obviously most hurtful to the actual slaves, ie Black people.

All of the above and probably lots more my lil ole brain can't articulate goes to why I believe that not only everything in AF is just right-on, but I would ask everyone to view the movie through both lenses. Yes, it is Antwone's story, but there are so many universal truths that Denzel's speech at the very end is really necessary and quite moving.

Thank you all for giving my post some consideration, even if you still don't agree ...

I'm doing 24 hour 'CQ' duty right now, and to pass the time, we're watching AF again.
The (one of the ) powerful things about this movie; one that separates it form any other movie I've ever seen, is the way it approached exposition of the character of the young black man as a vulnerable, sensitive person, who was insecure and inexperienced with women. Of course, it ends up there are specific scars hiis inadequacy can be traced to, but that particular aspect of humanity had never been given a black male face, to my experience.

Snood, I've just spent a lot of time @ various websites, doing an 'all web' search on the issue you've raised. Each time I thought I was getting closer, it lead to a dead end. The closest I got was a site about a Denver filmmaker who addresses sexually taboo subjects re movies about Black people and that one took me to a couple of movies on-target, but then I'd find them to be about Black women. Okay, I give up.

However, I did find the following review of AF from BET and would like to post it:

"Fisher" is a Triumph of Black Pain and Love

By Esther Iverem, BET.com Arts and Film Critic


In "Antwone Fisher," Denzel Washington demands as a director what he has always demanded as an actor: that a Black man be rendered on screen in his full complexity and humanity, and the result is a startling success. His directorial debut is filled with so many quiet horrors, miracles, demons and angels, with what is blessed and cursed inside us, that it is a cinematic metaphor for our community. So, to the things that Denzel Washington is credited with being-a fine actor, a man who is fine, a family man and a Black man of some consciousness-add the title of poet.

Based on a true story written by the real-life Antwone Fisher, it follows Fisher (Derek Luke), a young navy recruit with a short temper and a big heart who is forced to see a Navy psychiatrist, Jerome Davenport (Washington). Over time in sessions with the doctor, Fisher gradually peels back layers of accumulated shame, confronting his sense of abandonment, of being from nowhere and from no one. Born to an imprisoned young woman, he was last with his mother when he was two months old, before being sent to an orphanage and then a foster home, where he was emotionally, verbally and physically abused. His father was shot to death by a girlfriend before he was one year old. As Fisher remembers and dreams, we see his visions in a series of startling flashbacks. Central to Fisher's experience and his fitful rites of passage is his mistreatment at the hands of Black women-the mother who never came for him, the evil foster mother, another young woman who abused him. But it is the open-hearted love from a female fellow sailor that helps him on the road to healing and home.

Scenes between the two young lovers and between Fisher and Dr. Davenport are greatly benefited by the real-life Fisher's script, which feels like real conversation, real pain, and real moments of unexpected joy and laughter. There are no pat answers to anything. One of the most powerful "conversations" occurs between two people, one of which never utters a word.

Of course these scenes of introspection also rely on the knockout performance by Luke, a novice actor with a dark berry complexion who cannot be called a diamond in the rough. Honed by this process of working with Washington, he shimmers from deep inside. Washington does his thing, of course, and makes us believe everything he says and does. He draws his young charge into a warm onscreen rapport that is the muscle driving the story forward.

What is apparent to the viewer is not Fisher's rage but his deep pain, sensitivity and, yes, humanity that he has retained despite his ordeal. The honesty of this film will grate on the nerves of cynics in need of more edge. There will be those who ignore the pain and ugliness it bares and declare it too harsh or too sentimental, especially since it talks about Black pain. This film reminds us that the abandoned child doesn't ask, "What was wrong with the people who left me?" Rather, the abandoned child-as many children in our community are -asks, "What was wrong with me?" With these painful questions and answers, Washington offers a heart-breaking and joyous poem.

This review touched on both your and my posts above, however, I do believe my search coupled with the review from BET have confirmed your experience that it is in fact (as you wrote) the only movie ever made addressing these concerns to have been "...given a black male face...". Just heartbreaking, but I'm so glad you afforded me the opportunity of becoming aware of that fact. I am ashamed I hadn't realized that before yet happy to have become educated on that truth. Thank you, Snood.

you're welcome

Sweet, we shall have to agree to disagree on this one point. For me (To quote a line from Punch Drunk Love) "It's Over."

By the way, I too am adopted, but can only wonder whether I'm Jewish. Most likely not. What ever I am, I seem to pass for a WASP.

The review you posted was good.

Also, as regards the idea of another thread: alas, will I never learn not to pose tongue in cheek jokes on A2k?

Man, have I learned THAT the hard way??!!!! I'm so sorry to have done that to someone else ... please forgive me ...

A great a satisfying film and I hope Denzel is destined to direct many times over -- sorry I seemed to have missed this thread but will move it to featured today.

I showed this movie to my students. I teach, not in a school, but a detention facility for teen-agers awaiting trail on whatever charges. These are all males, 13 to 17 years of age, most of them gang members ('gang bangers' as the current expression goes), tough as they come. About 75 percent African-American, 15 percent Latino, the rest etc. I did not expect them to like the film, just thought they should see it. They like movies like Matrix and Terminator. This one has no mayhem, no car chases.

After the first 15 minutes or so, you could have heard a pin drop. At the end, these tough 'juvenile delinquents' applauded. It was the first, and, so far only, time I had seen them clap for any movie.

Wow, that's great to hear, MA. And how amazing that the kids can get involved in this very serious drama.

I hadn't seen this thread before.
My hub and I loved the movie.
Two hankies.
I really didn't like Antwone at the beginning of the movie. And, then as he's trying so hard to figure out why he's so full of rage--and begins finding out--you can't help but to love him.
SPOILER ALERT!!! DO NOT READ IF YOU HAVEN'T SEEN THE MOVIE

Now, I want everyone to go into therapy.
From going to having no one--to that room full of loving family was one of the most effective, non-contrived, emotional moments I've enjoyed recently in film. There is one thing I didn't quite understand. If black people abuse their children because of a throw-back to slavery, why do white people abuse their children?
Anyway, I highly recommend it--and I hope Denzel can mine some more good stories to direct.

Hey, sofia - anyone who liked this movie can't be all bad, in my book :wink:

As to your question about slavery. The point is that the kind of decimation of self-worth that happened because of slavery is what I see as catalyst to a legacy of abuse. And decimation of self-worth may be a cause of abuse in whites, also, but not necessarily from slavery.

A lack of self-esteem can cause all manner of destructive behaviors, from child abuse to drug abuse. This is true for people of whatever race. Slavery, however, would be an excellent cause for low self-esteem.

snood and MA--
That makes sense. Thank you.

Lack of self-esteem is also a product one's self identity and segregation as a dirty left over from slavery isn't that far in the past. It still isn't entirely wiped out either. Just saw "Far From Heaven" again last night on Pay-Per-View and it tackles the race issue of the 50's head on (not to mention gay issues). "Antwone Fischer" I believe will be regarded in the future as an even better film than it is today - Denzel Washington has the acting genius and now it looks like he has the directorial genius to continue to be an eloquent voice in the modern history of film. His portrayal of the attorney in "Philadelphia" is still once of my favorite performances of the 90's.