To create evil one must be evil - Is God Evil ?

xingu wrote:

So taking enjoyment from bashing kids against rock and allowing young girl virgins to be raped is not evil? This is what the Christian God does. Why can he do things such as this and not be called evil? Humans are called evil for doing this. Why the double standard?

When you make an accusation present evidence to substantiate your claim. Where in the Scriptures does it state that God takes enjoyment in
"bashing kids against rock and allowing young girl virgins to be raped"
We would like to know?

Ezekiel 18:32 For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, saith the Lord GOD: wherefore turn [yourselves], and live ye.

Ezekiel 33:11 Say unto them, [As] I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?

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But, of course, he chose not to foreknow all of the evil that would come about as a result of his creation. This must have involved a lot of knowing, and using his omnipotence to quickly forget..I assume.
Otherwise how would he know what he should foreknow and what he shouldn't? Tricky that, because if he accidently foreknows any evil he becomes responsible for it.
Oh my, what a mess.

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Chai Tea wrote:

Really, that's one of those mind f*cks people do.

They state something like "one must be evil to create evil" and state it with such certainty and a quote from somewhere, that many/some will just take it as truth.

It might not even be an accident, but a biproduct of some else created.

How many things have both components of good and evil?

What about all the things that are good for some, evil for others?

Most things are neutral, having the potential for either/both/neither.

This is correct. Everything has a dual nature. Water can give life and take life. One can write on paper and kill with paper. A hammer can be used to build and it can be used to kill. Food can sustain life and take life. Etc.........

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material girl wrote:

I now desperately need to know the differnece between God and Lord!!?

Study the Bible and notice where and when each term is used.

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Mindonfire wrote:

. Where in the Scriptures does it state that God takes enjoyment in
"bashing kids against rock and allowing young girl virgins to be raped"
We would like to know?

I don't know about raping virgins, but psalm 137:9 (I think that's the one, no bible handy) is pretty clear about head bashing of children, and the 'blessedness' of such head bashing.(at least to the children of babylon)

And again, WHO THE HELL is 'WE'?
Are you the queen?

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doktor S

Quote:

I don't know about raping virgins, but psalm 137:9 (I think that's the one, no bible handy) is pretty clear about head bashing of children, and the 'blessedness' of such head bashing.(at least to the children of babylon)

that's some funny shait

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Doktor S wrote:

Mindonfire wrote:

. Where in the Scriptures does it state that God takes enjoyment in
"bashing kids against rock and allowing young girl virgins to be raped"
We would like to know?

I don't know about raping virgins, but psalm 137:9 (I think that's the one, no bible handy) is pretty clear about head bashing of children, and the 'blessedness' of such head bashing.(at least to the children of babylon)

And again, WHO THE HELL is 'WE'?
Are you the queen?

Once again this verse is not attibuted to God. He is not the one who is bashing in heads.

Psalms 137:8 O daughter of Babylon, who art to be destroyed; happy [shall he be], that rewardeth thee as thou hast served us.
Psalms 137:9 Happy [shall he be], that taketh and dasheth thy little ones against the stones.

In that verse it is referring to people whose children have been treated in a similiar manner by Babylon. In the end these individuals are able to reward or pay back Babylon in kind for the way that she treated their children. So those verses are speaking of the revenge of one nation against another nation which has ruled and destroyed their children. They have now recieved revenge and are happy.

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Doktor S wrote:

But, of course, he chose not to foreknow all of the evil that would come about as a result of his creation. This must have involved a lot of knowing, and using his omnipotence to quickly forget..I assume.
Otherwise how would he know what he should foreknow and what he shouldn't? Tricky that, because if he accidently foreknows any evil he becomes responsible for it.
Oh my, what a mess.

The conundrum lies in your word smorgasbord. Just because you are 1,000 times more succinct than Mindy does not mean you can't obfuscate a point. It is not necessary for Jehovah to know all things in advance because there is no eventuality too great for him to overcome, and no wound too great for him to heal.

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Mindonfire wrote:

material girl wrote:
I now desperately need to know the differnece between God and Lord!!?

Study the Bible and notice where and when each term is used.

See discussion here.

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Doktor S wrote:

But, of course, he chose not to foreknow all of the evil that would come about as a result of his creation. This must have involved a lot of knowing, and using his omnipotence to quickly forget..I assume.
Otherwise how would he know what he should foreknow and what he shouldn't? Tricky that, because if he accidently foreknows any evil he becomes responsible for it.
Oh my, what a mess.

Knowledge of something is not the same as responsibility for it. Nor does one necessitate the other.

Not messy at all. Fairly easy even for most kids to understand.

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If this god foresaw evil in the creation of Satan he did not take action to prevent it. Of course, we know better. Satan was taken from Zoroastrianism. Their theology had dualism whereas Judaism did not till they were taken captive to Babylon.

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Don't know if he's evil. But seems he's too busy helping millionaire golfers sink 50 foot putts to help starving children get food!!!

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real life wrote:

Doktor S wrote:
But, of course, he chose not to foreknow all of the evil that would come about as a result of his creation. This must have involved a lot of knowing, and using his omnipotence to quickly forget..I assume.
Otherwise how would he know what he should foreknow and what he shouldn't? Tricky that, because if he accidently foreknows any evil he becomes responsible for it.
Oh my, what a mess.

Knowledge of something is not the same as responsibility for it. Nor does one necessitate the other.

Not messy at all. Fairly easy even for most kids to understand.

As usual, you are trying to blur the actual point with rhetoric. Yawn.
What you full well know is that there are special circumstances involved, since the being in question putatively created everything.
Since this being supposedly created all things, including evil, to know about it before hand (omniscience) does entail responsibility, for reasons I think should also be obvious to that very same child from your example.

Even were you to argue that your god did not in fact create evil, but only the men responsible for it, it would be akin to blaming the last domino in a chain for falling. If your deity had prior knowledge that evil would come about as a direct result of his action, it still bears responsibility for said results. There is no wiggle room, it's black and white. In your model, your god knocked over the first domino knowing full well where the last one would fall. He is responsible for the first, the last, and every domino in between.

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Doktor S wrote:

. . .
What you full well know is that there are special circumstances involved, since the being in question putatively created everything.
Since this being supposedly created all things, including evil, to know about it before hand (omniscience) does entail responsibility, for reasons I think should also be obvious to that very same child from your example.

Even were you to argue that your god did not in fact create evil, but only the men responsible for it, it would be akin to blaming the last domino in a chain for falling. If your deity had prior knowledge that evil would come about as a direct result of his action, it still bears responsibility for said results. There is no wiggle room, it's black and white. In your model, your god knocked over the first domino knowing full well where the last one would fall. He is responsible for the first, the last, and every domino in between.

You're too smart to be missing this point, Dok. Evil did not exist until Satan allowed rebellion to grow in his mind.

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Mindonfire wrote:

When you make an accusation present evidence to substantiate your claim. Where in the Scriptures does it state that God takes enjoyment in
"bashing kids against rock and allowing young girl virgins to be raped"
We would like to know?

Mindonfire, you shock me. You present thread after thread of Bible verses, behaving as if you have read the whole Bible and you are unaware of these scriptures. What am I to think.

Have you ever heard of the Mindianites? In Numbers, chapter 31 you can find their story. The Israeli army defeated the Mindianites and killed all the males. They bought all the women and children back to Moses. What did Moses do?

Quote:

31:17
Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him.
31:18
But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves.

They were divided up, half the women went to the soldiers and half to the rest of God's tribe. Of course God approved of all this. This was good.

Understand in those days women became mothers when they were very young, say 13 or 14 years old. So we may assume that girls younger than 13 were given to the soldiers for whatever pleasure they desired. I'm sure that after seeing their whole families destroyed they wouldn't want to hop in bed with their slayers. Although the Bible leaves it to your imagaination as to what the soldiers will do with the young virgins rape, I think, would be a good description of what follows a massacre.

You can see it in pictures here.

On the same site you can see God's instructions to the Israelites on how to commit genocide.

Your quote from the Bible is quite funny given all the death God demands.

Quote:

Ezekiel 33:11 Say unto them, [As] I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?

Mindonfire, what would you think of a person who, in a fit of anger at, lets say at the Iraqis, would scream out that they would like to rip the bellies of the pregnant women open and pull out their fetuses. A rational mind from a wise human.

Let us mosey on over to Hosea 13:16.

Quote:

Samaria shall become desolate; for she hath rebelled against her God: they shall fall by the sword: their infants shall be dashed in pieces, and their women with child shall be ripped up.

Is God vain? You bet. If you don't give proper glory to God he will smear sh*t in your face. Lets visit Malachi.

Quote:

2:2
If ye will not hear, and if ye will not lay [it] to heart, to give glory unto my name, saith the LORD of hosts, I will even send a curse upon you, and I will curse your blessings: yea, I have cursed them already, because ye do not lay [it] to heart.
2:3
Behold, I will corrupt your seed, and spread dung upon your faces, [even] the dung of your solemn feasts; and [one] shall take you away with it.

So what do we have here. A God that the Bible says is jealous, vengeful, selfish, vain, barbaric and intolerant. All good Christian virtues. I'm sure you would want to raise your kids to be just like God.

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Plus all the other countless evil acts. Seems poor people don't have this gods love, but at least bill gates and that other guy that donated billions are maybe going to make a slight difference. Maybe get some of these other rich guys to dig deep in their bank accounts.

Wilso wrote:

Don't know if he's evil. But seems he's too busy helping millionaire golfers sink 50 foot putts to help starving children get food!!!

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Doktor S wrote:

real life wrote:
Doktor S wrote:
But, of course, he chose not to foreknow all of the evil that would come about as a result of his creation. This must have involved a lot of knowing, and using his omnipotence to quickly forget..I assume.
Otherwise how would he know what he should foreknow and what he shouldn't? Tricky that, because if he accidently foreknows any evil he becomes responsible for it.
Oh my, what a mess.

Knowledge of something is not the same as responsibility for it. Nor does one necessitate the other.

Not messy at all. Fairly easy even for most kids to understand.

As usual, you are trying to blur the actual point with rhetoric. Yawn.
What you full well know is that there are special circumstances involved, since the being in question putatively created everything.
Since this being supposedly created all things, including evil, to know about it before hand (omniscience) does entail responsibility, for reasons I think should also be obvious to that very same child from your example.

Even were you to argue that your god did not in fact create evil, but only the men responsible for it, it would be akin to blaming the last domino in a chain for falling. If your deity had prior knowledge that evil would come about as a direct result of his action, it still bears responsibility for said results. There is no wiggle room, it's black and white. In your model, your god knocked over the first domino knowing full well where the last one would fall. He is responsible for the first, the last, and every domino in between.

Since you do not believe in free will, I guess it's not surprising that you don't understand it either.

You don't believe anyone, anywhere has a free will to do anything at anytime.

Isn't that the sum of it?

Please correct me if I misunderstand you when you make statements such as:

DS wrote:

Freewill is fantasy.

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BDV wrote:

Plus all the other countless evil acts. Seems poor people don't have this gods love, but at least bill gates and that other guy that donated billions are maybe going to make a slight difference. Maybe get some of these other rich guys to dig deep in their bank accounts.

Wilso wrote:
Don't know if he's evil. But seems he's too busy helping millionaire golfers sink 50 foot putts to help starving children get food!!!

So if men such as Bill Gates and Warren Buffet are able to give up their untold riches to help the poor, then what has happened to the rest. How is the Blame to be put squarely on God, if the problems are caused by man and man is able to solve them. We think you are looking at the wrong person. Man is the problem and Man is the solution. The money that you all use to wage war and have your little parties and galas could be better used to perfect your world. Instead of looking in the Mirror people want to blame God. Jesus said the kingdom of Heaven is within you. Once man puts his collective mind together to wage peace instead of war then you will solve your problems. So stop blaming God and look at your fellow man. Look at your actions. All that is going on in the world is cause and effect of man's actions.

Matthew 11:12 And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffereth violence, and the violent take it by force.

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xingu wrote:

Mindonfire wrote:
When you make an accusation present evidence to substantiate your claim. Where in the Scriptures does it state that God takes enjoyment in
"bashing kids against rock and allowing young girl virgins to be raped"
We would like to know?

Mindonfire, you shock me. You present thread after thread of Bible verses, behaving as if you have read the whole Bible and you are unaware of these scriptures. What am I to think.

Have you ever heard of the Mindianites? In Numbers, chapter 31 you can find their story. The Israeli army defeated the Mindianites and killed all the males. They bought all the women and children back to Moses. What did Moses do?

Quote:
31:17
Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him.
31:18
But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves.

They were divided up, half the women went to the soldiers and half to the rest of God's tribe. Of course God approved of all this. This was good.

Understand in those days women became mothers when they were very young, say 13 or 14 years old. So we may assume that girls younger than 13 were given to the soldiers for whatever pleasure they desired. I'm sure that after seeing their whole families destroyed they wouldn't want to hop in bed with their slayers. Although the Bible leaves it to your imagaination as to what the soldiers will do with the young virgins rape, I think, would be a good description of what follows a massacre.

You can see it in pictures here.

On the same site you can see God's instructions to the Israelites on how to commit genocide.

Your quote from the Bible is quite funny given all the death God demands.

Quote:
Ezekiel 33:11 Say unto them, [As] I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?

Mindonfire, what would you think of a person who, in a fit of anger at, lets say at the Iraqis, would scream out that they would like to rip the bellies of the pregnant women open and pull out their fetuses. A rational mind from a wise human.

Let us mosey on over to Hosea 13:16.

Quote:
Samaria shall become desolate; for she hath rebelled against her God: they shall fall by the sword: their infants shall be dashed in pieces, and their women with child shall be ripped up.

Is God vain? You bet. If you don't give proper glory to God he will smear sh*t in your face. Lets visit Malachi.

Quote:
2:2
If ye will not hear, and if ye will not lay [it] to heart, to give glory unto my name, saith the LORD of hosts, I will even send a curse upon you, and I will curse your blessings: yea, I have cursed them already, because ye do not lay [it] to heart.
2:3
Behold, I will corrupt your seed, and spread dung upon your faces, [even] the dung of your solemn feasts; and [one] shall take you away with it.

So what do we have here. A God that the Bible says is jealous, vengeful, selfish, vain, barbaric and intolerant. All good Christian virtues. I'm sure you would want to raise your kids to be just like God.

Court is in Session. The Accuser Xingu versus the defendant God
Please raise your right hand. Do you swear to tell the truth etc...........

First of all the responsibility of an Accuser is to present valid evidence to support his accusations. You presented the accusation so the onus is on you to bring forth your evidence.

Now, the story of the Midianites is taken out of context. So let us put it back in its proper place. This story is within the context of a retaliatory war. Not preemptive like you all think is within reason. So there is a reason for the killings. Secondly here is one of those places where there is a distinction between God and the LORD. Remember that earlier we told you all that there is a difference between the two . If you will read the whole chapter you will see that nowhere in that chapter does God tell them to go to war. It was the LORD. Since you are quite intelligent maybe you will figure out who the LORD is.

So on this first point you are WRONG. It is not GOD but the LORD. 1st Evidence against GOD is dismissed

Numbers 31:1 And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,
Numbers 31:2 Avenge the children of Israel of the Midianites: afterward shalt thou be gathered unto thy people.
Numbers 31:3 And Moses spake unto the people, saying, Arm some of yourselves unto the war, and let them go against the Midianites, and avenge the LORD of Midian.

Let us mosey on over to Hosea 13:16 and look at that evidence. Once again the LORD and not GOD 2nd Evidence against GOD is dismissed

Hosea 13:15 Though he be fruitful among [his] brethren, an east wind shall come, the wind of the LORD shall come up from the wilderness, and his spring shall become dry, and his fountain shall be dried up: he shall spoil the treasure of all pleasant vessels.

Hosea 13:16 Samaria shall become desolate; for she hath rebelled against her God: they shall fall by the sword: their infants shall be dashed in pieces, and their women with child shall be ripped up.

Finally why don't we visit MalachI and look at that evidence. Once again if you will look, the LORD and not GOD. 3rd Evidence against GOD is dismissed

Malachi 2:1 And now, O ye priests, this commandment [is] for you.

Malachi 2:2 If ye will not hear, and if ye will not lay [it] to heart, to give glory unto my name, saith the LORD of hosts, I will even send a curse upon you, and I will curse your blessings: yea, I have cursed them already, because ye do not lay [it] to heart.

Malachi 2:3 Behold, I will corrupt your seed, and spread dung upon your faces, [even] the dung of your solemn feasts; and [one] shall take you away with it.

The defense rests

Please do bring more.

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Mindonfire

The Lord is God. Who else would they be speaking to?

Quote:

A. Yet for us there is (only) one God, the Father, Who is the Source of all things, and for Whom we (have life), and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through and by Whom are all things and through and by Whom we (ourselves exist) (1 Corinthians 8:6, Amplified Version).

The term "Lord" is used interchangeably throughout the Bible to refer to both God the Father and to Jesus Christ.

SOURCE

Quote:

Please do bring more.

This list was compiled by someone several years ago. I like to keep it to remind me of God of the Bible's love and humanity.

The following is a list of people murdered by God directly or through His command.

The entire population of the earth except for eight survivors (Genesis 7:23)
Every inhabitant of Sodom and Gomorrah except for one family (Genesis 19:24)
Every first born of Egypt (Exodus 12:29)
All the hosts of the Pharaoh, including the captains of 600 chariots (Exodus 14:27,28)
Amalek and his people (Exodus 17:11,16)
3,000 Israelites (Exodus 32:27)
250 Levite princes who had challenged the leadership of Moses (Numbers 16:1-40)
14,700 Jews in a plague who had rebelled against Moses following the killing of the princes (Numbers 16:41-49)
All the subjects of Og (Numbers 21:34, 35)
24,000 Israelites who lived with Moabite women (Numbers 25:4, 9)
All the males, kings, and non-virgin females of the Midianites (Numbers 31:7, 8)
The Ammonites (Deuteronomy 2:19-21)
The Horims (Deuteronomy 2:22)
All the citizens of Jericho, except for a prostitute and her family (Joshua 6)
12,000 citizens of Ai. Joshua hung the king on a tree. (Joshua 8:1-30)
All the people of Makkedah (Joshua 10:28)
All the people of Libnah (Joshua 10:29, 30)
All the people of Gezer (Joshua 10:33)
All the people of Lachish (Joshua 10:32)
All the people of Eglon (Joshua 10:34, 35)
All the people of Hebron (Joshua 10:36, 37)
All the inhabitants of 1 of the country of the hills, and of the south, and the vale, and of the springs and all their kings (Joshua 10:40)
All 31 kings and inhabitants of their countries, and south country, and the land of Goshen, and the valley, and the plain, and the mountain of Israel, and the valley of the same from Mt. Halak to Mt. Hermon (Joshua 11:12, 16, 17, 12:24)
10,000 Moabites (Judges 3:29)
10,000 Perizzites and Canaanites (Judges 1:4)
600 Phillistines (Judges 3:31)
All of Sisera (Judges 4:16)
120,000 Midianites (Judges 8:10)
25,100 Benjaminites (Judges 20:35)
50,070 people of Bethshemesh (I Samuel 6:19)
All the Amalekites (I Samuel 15:3, 7)
The armies and five kings of the Amorites (Amos 3:2)
The Moabites and 22,000 Syrians (II Samuel 8:2, 5, 6, 14)
40,000 Syrian horsemen (II Samuel 10:18)
100,000 Syrian footmen, followed by 27,000 who are all crushed by a wall (I Kings 20:28, 29, 30)
42 children eaten by a bear (II Kings 2:23, 24)
185,000 Assyrians killed by an angel (II Kings 19:35)
10,000 Edomites, followed by 10,000 more whose killers brought them to the top of the rock, and cast them down from the top of the rock, that they were broken in pieces (II Chronicles 28)
120,000 Judeans (II Chronicles 28)
75,000 Persians (Esther 9:16)

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To create evil one must be evil - Is God Evil ?

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