2
   

Should we let them run amok?

 
 
ossobuco
 
  1  
Reply Mon 3 Nov, 2008 09:04 pm
@ossobuco,
Well, I beg both your pardons, as this is not supposed to be about home schooling, but about running amok.
DrMom
 
  1  
Reply Mon 3 Nov, 2008 09:30 pm
@ossobuco,
If any one deserves an apology it is Soz, ( it is her post ) I revived her post just to talk about homeschooling ( Kidding)
It is bold ,it is gutsy, it is liberating, it is quenching my own thirst. I am guilty of reliving the childhood I dreamed of , with them. We are growing up together. we are learning to question authority. to challenge ourselves. To be ....
I am guilty of withdrawing my support from the public system but htey have my Taxes right !!( silly I know)
For a while I am doing what feels right !!
ossobuco
 
  1  
Reply Tue 4 Nov, 2008 10:29 am
@DrMom,
I understand, Dr. Mom.. you surely can enjoy some amok time too.
0 Replies
 
CalamityJane
 
  1  
Reply Tue 4 Nov, 2008 10:49 am
I grew up very carefree - gone in the morning, home by dusk, and I tried to
do the same with my daughter. We live in a safe, protected neighborhood along a canyon where there is a small forest in the back. My daughter used to go there with her neighborhood friends and built tree houses, or just roam around the neighborhood. She rarely needed toys to keep her occupied, she always found something interesting: worms, snails, digging in dirt and so on. The only stipulation I had was that she could not go into anyone's house without prior approval. It took a couple of time-outs for her to understand my reasoning but once that was out of the way, she was free to go and do whatever she wanted to do.

Many of her school friends wanted to come over just to go outside and roam in the woods with her. They all loved it!
DrMom
 
  1  
Reply Tue 4 Nov, 2008 05:22 pm
@CalamityJane,
Good for you CJ, it took me back into my childhood where Enid Blyton created similar ambiance for me compllete with a creek in the backyard too.
0 Replies
 
ossobuco
 
  1  
Reply Tue 4 Nov, 2008 05:25 pm
@CalamityJane,
Approval from here..
0 Replies
 
DrMom
 
  1  
Reply Thu 6 Nov, 2008 10:26 am
I love the whole idea , bit more processing and I have these thoughts. In the little running amok time I had as a child , some girls questioned where I was from? Then they made their own speculations. Whatever I had to say mattered little as they were older. Few years later two other couple other made remarks on my chubby cheeks and how that looked extra on my face. That was never shared with any adults.
I wonder if I have carried it all along. My husband can't understand why I doubt when he tells me how beautifull I am.
I try extra hard at times inappropriately to mingle so people won't question where I am from.
I don't think it has any major implications now but I think some of that is baggage from childhood and it took some work to clear it .
Some authors advocate for carefull socialization in very early formative years ( 3-9) Before a sense of self develops. Even proponents of authentic parenting who believe in near complete autonomy for children sugggest being ptotective of the littler ones in the group so they are not left feeling powerless and internalize it.
So I wonder if there is any research on running amok and age groups , I will continue to look and share if I find anything.
CalamityJane
 
  1  
Reply Thu 6 Nov, 2008 10:36 am
@DrMom,
Dr. Mom, I always feel that children have to live WITH us not being shielded FROM everything and BY us. I can see that you're projecting your own childhood memories into your kids, and I don't think this is fair to them. They
will have their very own memories to be made.
sozobe
 
  1  
Reply Thu 6 Nov, 2008 10:49 am
@CalamityJane,
I think this is part of the internal resources thing, too. It seems that perhaps you're still carrying some baggage from a dearth of free social interaction when you were a kid, Dr. Mom.

I agree that it differs by age. When my daughter was 3, she ran amok far less than she does now. The first stage of running amok was probably preschool, where there was a loose but watchful adult present and certain parameters were laid down -- which behaviors were within normal range and which behaviors were unacceptable. (Both her own behaviors and the behavior of her classmates towards her.) If Angela called sozlet a mean name, that was not OK. If Angela happened to get to the line ahead of sozlet and sozlet was mad and wanted to be first, that was just kind of too bad. Something for her to learn to deal with.

It strikes me that communication between parent and child is a big part of this whole thing. For playdates, I trust my daughter to tell me if something happened that she didn't like, and I'm willing to take action. That trust was built gradually too (as in, again there are differences between now and when she was three). She had to learn not to be such a go-along -- there were several early playdates with new people where I'd ask how it went and she said "great!" and then seemed out of sorts and I'd keep asking and find out that actually, there had been problems, and she was upset about it. She had to develop the emotional awareness, and develop the vocabulary to express it.

Now I trust her a great deal -- if she wants someone to come over for a playdate, I trust that it's probably something that will work out. If it doesn't work out, I trust that she'll tell me.

That said, I do think that there should be some protection going on, the trick is to find the balance, and that's a difficult thing to do (hence starting this thread in the first place! Smile)
CalamityJane
 
  1  
Reply Thu 6 Nov, 2008 11:11 am
@sozobe,
Well yes, some kids need to be protected more than others, it always depends on the personality of the child. In our case, Jane was the opposite of sozlet - she was the bully with the "here I come" attitude and she had to learn that not everything will go her way (which was a frustrating learning process for her),
and mostly she learned those lessons from her peers and not me. Today, she's
much more mellow and very helpful towards her peers, especially the underprivileged ones who are bussed into her school.
0 Replies
 
DrMom
 
  1  
Reply Sat 8 Nov, 2008 01:52 am
@CalamityJane,
Dr. Mom, I always feel that children have to live WITH us not being shielded FROM everything and BY us.

Dont know CJ. I read something quite interesting re; parenting. There are two kinds found in nature. One where environment is hazardous, survival is the goal, and offspring is produced in large numbers and then left to their own devices, some actually eaten by mother!!the other where environment is safer, less number of off spring, (In Soz's case just one )would suffice. In those situations all resources are spent on making the next generation the fittest. We belong to the later one. I believe we are all trying to provide the balance. In my case immigration for two generations straight must have produced some baggage which I might be considering my strong suit, but I do not believe in controlling them. That being said, I do think parents are the most important social factor. I don't think I suffered that much from the dearth of social interaction as much I did from my parents not expressing their feelings openly and a lack of physical expression of love. Any amount of social interaction would not compensate for that. I hug and kiss and express myself freely to My kids all the time knowing that is what I missed but I still don't want to leave them out there to form their own defense mechanisms. If I missed social interaction that badly I would probably be shoving them out the door much more often. I do go overboard in getting and giving the things I did not have as a child, but the more I think about it the more I feel unsure about the value of that early loose socialization. I mean as my long as my preschool child knows that some one elses mean words do not have any power over her and she does not have any control over other people's actions, what difference does it make. She needs to know calling people mean things is bad as long as she is exposed to the mean things. If she never heard me calling people mean things it would be extremely difficult for her to learn to call people mean things. As an example I never saw my parents using bad words or argue loudly and you could not teach me that today. My colleagues had a bet in residency that they would have me using The F word by the end of three years and the closest they got to was "Freak" that too was used for my husband which I consider a wifely duty.
This reminds me of the interesting debate we had in residency. We were learning how to counsel parents re; how to make children sleep in their own beds. When it came to how parents should ignore when kids cry initially , their was a fierce opposing argument by me and another resident ( both of us being young parents getting to see our kids two hours a day) At that time too I did not see the urgency in making kids use their own resources. I did not even know that such a thing as attachment parenting exists.
All of us are living longer and longer, right. So we have all this time to not be shielded, to be on our own, and to be using our own resources. why lengthen the time at the other end. From 18 to 65 seems like a pretty long time to me, anytime afterwards is a bonus.
I think as a parents of single children have to be more vigorous about Socialization which soz is doing and I also think it is hard for Yuppies to provide that coveted Amok Time and so I am vigorously defending my stand.
sozobe
 
  1  
Reply Mon 17 Nov, 2008 06:39 pm
@DrMom,
Thought of this thread when I read the following article in the New Yorker:

http://www.newyorker.com/arts/critics/books/2008/11/17/081117crbo_books_acocella

An excerpt that gets at some of what I was saying about the need to give a child the opportunity to develop his or her own resources:

Quote:
Marano thinks that the infant-stimulation craze was a scandal. She accepts the idea of brain plasticity, but she believes that the sculpting goes on for many years past infancy and that its primary arena should be self-stimulation, as the child ventures out into the world. While Mother was driving the kid nuts with the eight-hundredth iteration of “This Little Piggy,” she should have been letting him play on his own. Marano assembles her own arsenal of neurological research, guaranteed to scare the pants off any hovering parent. As children explore their environment by themselves"making decisions, taking chances, coping with any attendant anxiety or frustration"their neurological equipment becomes increasingly sophisticated, Marano says. “Dendrites sprout. Synapses form.” If, on the other hand, children are protected from such trial-and-error learning, their nervous systems “literally shrink.”

Such atrophy, Marano claims, may be undetectable in the early years, when overattentive parents are doing for the child what he should be doing on his own, but once he goes off to college the damage becomes obvious. Marano sees an epidemic of psychological breakdown on college campuses: “The middle of the night may find a SWAT team of counselors calming down a dorm wing after having crisis-managed an acute manic episode or yet another incident of self-mutilation.” Overparented students who avoid or survive college meltdowns are still impaired, Marano argues. Having been taught that the world is full of dangers, they are risk-averse and pessimistic. (“It may be that robbing children of a positive sense of the future is the worst form of violence that parents can do to them,” she writes.) Schooled in obedience to authority, they will be poor custodians of democracy. Finally"and, again, she stresses this"their robotic behavior will threaten “American leadership in the global marketplace.” That was the factor that frightened parents into hovering. And by their hovering they prevented their children from developing the very traits"courage, nimbleness, outside-the-box thinking"that are required by the new economic order.


(Emphases mine.)

The article is in the form of a review of several books on "overparenting" and I agree with the author (Joan Acocella) of the article that the books are a bit shrill and alarmist themselves. I'm suspicious of parenting (or educational) fads in general. But there is some hard science behind the dangers of too much hovering.
DrMom
 
  1  
Reply Thu 20 Nov, 2008 06:52 pm
@sozobe,
I skimmed through all five pages. You would have been better at simplifying it for me. I could not make sense of it. It left me confused. There did not seem to be a main theme. I did not see what it was for and what it was against. I did not know some of the words like fogyism.
I am better at handling simple concepts that appeal to me. It would be hard to get a sense of what you would call overparenting.
There are lots of books being written about kids being raised by their peers which would be the opposite concept or so I believe.
I am not a believer of Generalization.
I am bound to project my own feelings into the whole thing. For a few months now I have been thinking that the whole feminism thing did not benefit me personally. Having a job that seemed high powered actually left me powerless. Paying 33% in taxes and 65% in overhead the rest is spent in Nanny and such costs that go with it. Accesories such as Clothes and shoes go along with the whole picture! This is where I feel that I am projecting my feeling into it the most,While I am depleted managing my career house hold and the emotional burden is atleast tripled, my kids are left at the mercy of Public school system and Nanny. Knowing where most of my Tax money is going is no consolation at all. I think all of that creates certain neuroses. So I am bound to try to compensate. Now whatever I would do would be subject to a label. Overparenting, overscheduling or such.
So I think the best thing is to do whatever makes you peaceful.
I trust my maternal instincts to tell me where I am going wrong better than the burned out frustrated teacher or Nanny or after school attendant.
For two years My son's teachers were raising concerns about possible ADD. That is when I decided to get involved and hovered a lot in school. I was shocked at my naivity. What was I thinking when I decided to put my most precious belongings in the hands of well intended but over stretched , burned out people?
When the whole school was fretting about FCAT and how we should prepare them for the big day , we were playing Baseball and goping to bed at a time that would make the principal lose sleep for a few days. He still scored over 90th percentile. Now that I know him better he tells me when his maths sheets had no mistakes he had to wait for every body to be finished. If he moved around and talked that was considered sign of ADD !!
Some how the whole concept of " Too much Love" does not go down smoothly. There cannot be too much love.
I would argue if someone tells me that my children Neurons will make more synapses when they spent 12 hrs a day with children exactly his own age.
I think I canot ever be too involved with my children because if I am genuinely involved I would be the first to see their need for more independence, creativity and autonomy.
So I am not agreeing or disagreeing to the concept of overparenting I am trying to understand what it is that the authors are against. Please help me understand?
sozobe
 
  1  
Reply Thu 20 Nov, 2008 07:21 pm
@DrMom,
Hmmm..

First, I don't think anyone (here anyway) is arguing that there is such a thing as too much love.

Second, the article I talked about above was a review of several recent books about parenting. I linked to one section that cited some of the science of allowing kids to have some autonomy -- why that's important.

Third, the concept of overparenting as laid out in the article is basically when a child's development is stunted by parents who attempt to do everything for their child -- which, in the extreme, is actually counterproductive. (Of course all parents attempt to do "everything" -- so the "extreme" part of this is important.)

Here's the beginning of the article, with a more nuanced definition:

Quote:
We’ve all been there"that is, in the living room of friends who invited us to dinner without mentioning that this would include a full-evening performance by their four-year-old. He sings, he dances, he eats all the hors d’oeuvres. When you try to speak to his parents, he interrupts. Why should they talk to you, about things he’s not interested in, when you could all be discussing how his hamster died? His parents seem to agree; they ask him to share his feelings about that event. You yawn. Who cares? Dinner is finally served, and the child is sent off to some unfortunate person in the kitchen. The house shakes with his screams. Dinner over, he returns, his sword point sharpened. His parents again ask him how he feels. It’s ten o’clock. Is he tired? No! he says. You, on the other hand, find yourself exhausted, and you make for the door, swearing never to have kids or, if you already did, never to visit your grandchildren. You’ll just send checks.

This used to be known as “spoiling.” Now it is called “overparenting”"or “helicopter parenting” or “hothouse parenting” or “death-grip parenting.” The term has changed because the pattern has changed. It still includes spoiling"no rules, many toys"but two other, complicating factors have been added. One is anxiety. Will the child be permanently affected by the fate of the hamster? Did he touch the corpse, and get a germ? The other new element"at odds, it seems, with such solicitude"is achievement pressure. The heck with the child’s feelings. He has a nursery-school interview tomorrow. Will he be accepted? If not, how will he ever get into a good college? Overparenting is the subject of a number of recent books, and they all deplore it in the strongest possible terms.


I'm not really sure where to go from there. Laughing I'm not interested in making you feel badly about your choices... this part of the discussion started when you asked some questions, (like, "Here is my question , If I did try extra hard and found the right kind of circumstances to let him run amok would I be happier than I am now ?") and I tried to answer them. Now it seems more like you feel strongly that you have made the right decisions -- which is fine.
DrMom
 
  1  
Reply Fri 21 Nov, 2008 01:14 am
@sozobe,
I never felt that you are trying to make me feel bad about my choices.
I am trying to analyze the science behind " running amok" so I can decide how much emphasis should be placed on that. I am against controlling or Overparenting too, so in that regard the article did not help. English is a second language for me and as much as I like it, I feel sometimes I don't understand it as well asa someone who is a native speaker and who has studied it, thus I requested help.

"First, I don't think anyone (here anyway) is arguing that there is such a thing as too much love. "
In the article there was this piece when a teacher remarked after reading the assignment "there is too much Love in this household" or something like that. That is what I was commenting at. I hope that was not said directly to the student. I would not like a teacher directly or indirectly making such a degrading comment. If there is some other meaning to that you can help me understand.


Second, the article I talked about above was a review of several recent books about parenting. I linked to one section that cited some of the science of allowing kids to have some autonomy -- why that's important.

I could not agree more about the importance of autonomy. What I am unclear about is if unsupervized socialization will promote autonomy. I feel that when kids are together for prolonged periods of time they feel a certain pressure to be alike or atleast popular. So it would curb individuality and autonomy to an extent in my opinion. I felt that I could express my autonomy and individuality more easily to elders or youngers who were open and receptive compared to the same age group where being odd was a big risk.

'Third, the concept of overparenting as laid out in the article is basically when a child's development is stunted by parents who attempt to do everything for their child -- which, in the extreme, is actually counterproductive. "

How do we determine what is Extreme, that is too subjective.
Involved parent in my mind would not do every thing but will be there for them regardless of what they do.

Again Running Amok kind of sounds cool but my real question is ,how much unsupervised socialization do they really need ?
On the other hand I feel a sense od unfairness asking this question. The question instead of being Running amok Time for our previliged children could also be should inner city under previliged children get some time away from running amok to do some scheduled activities?
I think I am too sleepy and that is why my thoughts are not making sense . will check in tomorrow!
0 Replies
 
 

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