Should we let them run amok?

mark

For the last ten years or so I've been bemused by the number of scheduled, supervised children's activities that exist--and the amount of parental time that this involves--and the lack of stretches of unstructured time.

Adults are absent in children's books for Very Good Reasons. Adults, when present, take charge. Adults, when present, veto. Under the watchful eye of a caring adult there is little chance for childish heroism--realistic or unrealistic.

The Sozelet is still young enough to need leading strings, but in another year or so you'll be able (if you are brave enough) to supervise her crossing the street and then turn away as she skips off to Jack's house or Emily's yard.

Neighborhood gangs have educational advantages lacking in supervised activity. Neighborhood gangs produce self-reliance and the habit of self entertainment (which is not always a Good Thing).

Good luck on shaping a neighborhood.

I couldn't imagine being a suburban kid today. Nearly all of the bright spots in my childhood involve me wandering off into the neighborhood, and I was devastated when my parents moved to a neighborhood in another school district where there were hardly any children. From then until driving age I was stuck being dependent on adults to do anything, and it was unbelievably boring. Nothing to do a lot of the time but go outside and work on my jumper. (Couldn't even work on my all-around game, because there was no one to play with.)

But whatcha gonna do?

My neice is lucky right now. She just moved into a house with a huge back yard that is entirely fenced in. There are neighborhood kids who will eventually end up playing with her within the fence. Beyond that, there will be little unsupervised wandering for her in that neighborhood. There are 2 really busy roads.

I, too, can't imagine a childhood like kids today have. We used to disappear into the woods for all of the daylight hours and emerge in time for dinner.

Noddy, precisely. And I am actually quite happy with this neighborhood for that reason but there are two buts. But one: we will be moving probably next year, two years at the latest. But two: the visible kiddos seem to all be under 4. Once they hit kindergarten, they disappear. We have a lot of older kids in the neighborhood, too (i.e. over 5) but I hardly ever see them.

The summer is different, though. Lots of wandering then. I do like this neighborhood.

patiodog, you have a sister, no? Is she much older/ younger? I ask because that is the single biggest reason I would consider having another child, is to give the sozlet a non-adult to play with, no matter what. But if you have a sibling and still felt that in the absence of other kids you didn't have anyone to play with, that seems to derail that line of thinking a bit.

littlek, interesting. Glad S has a good play situation lined up.

I am very grateful indeed for Jack and Emily across the way. I can see turning away next summer, perhaps.

My thinking goes something like this: children want to be able to trust their parents to protect them. Yet, children need to take risks. If a parent is watching and says "Go ahead, pop a wheelie on your giant Schwinn" (source of the scar just below my left kneecap), and the kid pops a wheelie on his/her giant Schwinn, and falls on a very sharp rock and there are quantities of blood, the child's trust in the parent is compromised. Why'd you tell me to go ahead and do something unsafe?

Yet, if the parent is watching and says "Please don't pop a wheelie on your giant Schwinn", the child either a) doesn't pop a wheelie or b) does pop a wheelie, defying the parent. Since I don't like either of these options -- I think children should pop wheelies or do other equivalently dumb but not life threatening things if they want to -- that means the parent can't always be watching. Nor the faux parent -- soccer coach or whomever.

Sozobe -- One of the things that worked for me when the kids were quite young (2-7) was to take them to a fenced-in "tot lot" where they could run amok within the grounds. There was plenty to keep them occupied and I'd often go with a friend & her kids so we'd give them freedom within limits. Yes, we were driving them somewhere, but it was unstructured...except that we'd bring a snack! For a couple of years we went at least twice a week, sometimes up to five times a week. They weren't much for playing with the other kids there.... everybody seemed to bring their own companions, but they were free. It was nice.

When my kids got older, I ended up being a soccer mom. Sigh, what a drag... years & years of never being able to plan a weekend trip in the fall. I'm SO GLAD those days are over.

It IS hard to know what to do and I admit I have never lived in a suburban neighborhood with sidewalks and lots of houses. I think that when a child is older, say 10-12, then they could be safely allowed out (though lord knows you hear awful stories). My early memories are of being on the beach, having my own rowboat, running around with the other kids on the bay and not having a care in the world. I wouldn't have to come home until the flag (really a red towel) was hung out on the dock by my mom. We weren't allowed out in the "big bay" and I'm still nervous about going out there now. However, when you think about it, we could have drowned! There were awful currents, deep cold water. Whatever were our parents thinking?

About having another baby... it is helpful to have a sibling, though you need to accept that they will fight. A nearby cousin is always good. Got any prospects?

My mother's (and her mother's) solution in situations like this was to say "Uh-oh, I don't think that's a good idea." That way, she didn't request anything and left us our chance to make our own decisions -- and possibly screw up. At the same time, my sisters and I quickly learned that when our mother didn't think something was a good idea, it usually wasn't. We also learned there were exceptions to this rule, but we ended up following our mother's advice much more often than not -- and, I'm sure, much more often than if she had backed up her advice with orders.

I loved the first half of your article, just had no time to read -- no, enjoy -- the second yet. Thanks for the link!

-- Thomas

Just wondering where you are on this issue now?

I so agree with you and with the washington poster. Invention in play had its possible downsides, but the regimentation is freaky to me. I wonder if there is an increase in "boredom" when regimented children are suddenly left with an unscheduled time period - boredom as a manifestation of a need to be entertained.


Oops, I just noticed this was an old thread. Still relevant though.

Thanks for reviving this, Dr. Mom! It's one I'd forgotten about but my mindset is apparently exactly the same, five years on.

We moved (since I wrote this) to a neighborhood that is the closest I've seen in modern days to the one I grew up in. Kids running amok everywhere. Sozlet isn't quite there but getting close. Our compromise these days is to have scheduled run-amok playdates.

I don't know if it's that a certain kind of parenting produces kids who are more likely to be friends with sozlet or if parents do some sort of selecting, but our circle of friends skews amok. That is, when sozlet has a playdate (and she does usually at least twice a week), I pick up the kid at school, bring him or her here, and then they disappear for a couple-few hours. Same thing happens when she goes to their houses. ("How was the playdate?" "I dunno, I haven't seen them since 3 -- no blood that I know of though.")

I trust my kid and keep tabs on them in a general way -- hey, what was that huge thump? -- but usually leave them up to their own devices. They play inside, they play outside -- we have a large, fenced-in back yard.

Occasionally a new friend comes over who wants to Be Entertained and Play With Objects (preferably trendy ones) -- sozlet doesn't like that very much. So either the friends convert (this has happened) or we stick to the free-form kids.

Her best friend is the third of four kids and the two of them (sozlet and BF) can have scads of fun with a piece of string and a toilet paper tube (random example). They enact these elaborate scenarios -- recently they were stranded on a desert island (our backyard stood in) and built a fire (twigs plus orange flowers for the "flame"), cooked food (bark for cooking utensils), etc., etc.

So, I'm happy about that. Not quite as amok as I'd like -- I'd like to feel better about sending her out into the neighborhood (not enough people home to keep an eye out, as per the article). But fairly amok.

I have been doing a lot of soul searching on this. I have no definite answers just random thoughts.
My childhood was just the opposite of yours. My mom is a homebody , cooking decorating and raising children according to her expected level of goodness seemed to please her. My Father too after work was devoted to his family his passtimes included making desserts ( I kind of wish he indulged in main courses as I have a sweet tooth and constantly struggle with weight) and sharing house hold chores with my Mom. They were immigrants(to Pakistan from India) and some how I feel their next generation was their sole focus. They were good commomsense people. A bit too analytical though !! In standard terminology you would say me and my brother turned out to be extremely good kids. Have good careers, relationships and are generally happy.
we were never allowed to run amok. I never had adventure. The closest I have been to adventure is roaming the neighborhood with friends my Mom won't approve and stealing fruit from neighbors trees. Another one I remeber is changing my Math grade on my report card somewhere in middle school and then after getting it signed by my parents when it looked fishy to be presented to the teacher I sneaked into the locked cabinet and cleared a few other report cards and destroyed them. I still remeber my teachers baffled comments " I wonder who it is who stole all of my best students Report cards"
We were lectured often ,yelled at seldom and spanked Oh maybe once that I can remeber.
I recently completed my past with myself and my parents and realized it was pretty good that they convinced me to study medicine and kept me out of trouble most of the time.
Left to my own devices I would be hanging out with unachieving free spirited minds, would have studied Liberal arts ( much more usefull in this country than mine) may be my poeticinstincts would still be intact .

I feel that my whole life lies ahead of me so if I want adventure, freedom and wildness no one in particular would stop me.

What I question though is if I was allowed to run amok in my free time would I wish today that I had more guidance and supervision.

I just picked up a book at the library " Pressured parents , stressed out kids"
I am almost near the end. What was interesting is that although parents are criticized for regimenting the kids and being " Overinvolved" the studies are showing otherwise. The more scheduled activities kids had with parental involvement , better they did later on in terms of academic achievemetn and contentment.
The author makes a critical distinction which is to make certain that the child is happy doing whatever it is that they are doing. He describes three basic elements of his approach. Autonomy, Parent involvement and structure.
I would add that it is equally important that the parent is happy doing whatever it is that they are doing.
I have failed at letting my kids run amok. I have tried. I do not know what different factors operate. Maybe the kinds of neighborhoods we have lived in ( country clubbish) or is it that we look different , " Good looking Asians" is what someone coined which I like. Or is it that I discriminate. There was this kid in my Son's Third Grade Class. Parents were divorced and he was always wanting to come over our house. As much as I tried to be non judgemental I just did not like who my son was being when he was with him. At 81/2 years of age he had two unsuccessful attempts at dating with at least some mention of kissing as much as I know. So I requested the principal that he not be in the same class as my son and she said he wont be and then we moved.
I am very happy now. I homeschool them. I do music and karate and some book clubs and chess clubs with them. He seems to be happy.
Here is my question , If I did try extra hard and found the right kind of circumstances to let him run amok would I be happier than I am now ?
If I did not introduce him to Tennis, karate, baseball, Swimming, chess in the time that would be reserved for running amok then who would ?

I don't think it has to be binary. My kid does that sort of thing too (soccer, ballet, etc.) but then runs amok in her free time. (She HAS free time. Free time is extremely important.)

I'm currently in the stay-at-home mom phase of my life but have been a high achiever throughout. Excellent student, director of a successful agency, etc. I think running amok gave me a lot of things including confidence, independence, assertiveness, and creativity.

Another non-binary choice -- running amok and getting guidance and supervision. My kid doesn't CONSTANTLY run amok. But I make sure she has opportunities to do so.

Just from what you've said -- which means I don't have enough info to be really conclusive -- I think your kids would benefit from more amok-time. Especially if they're homeschooled. I think they need time away from you and away from structure, to build some internal resources rather than having everything laid out on a platter.

I agree that balance is the key. I also think that to some degree we will have to accept that times have changed.
I am happy that you are able to provide both to your satisfaction. I try , actually it is better now that I homeschool. They have more free time. I also know what is really going on and am able to let them be on their own. It is kind of tricky though. Actually I felt when they were in school it was hard for them to have that time. Any chance he had he would run for video game or tv.
It also might be the age thing Sozlet is still at an age where popular media has not completely mesmerized her and with your involvement it won't.
When I was working my kid had to be in after school until six. It was kind of kids running amok too but not in a positive way. I think boys mostly talk about who has what video game and what TV shows are cool and in that kind of setting they kind of start cloning each other. This is described in recent literature as kids being raised by their peers. So as much as I believe in letting them be on their own that probably should be 15 to 20 % of the total entertainment time. What do you think?

I was a child of the late forties and early fifties. I'm a mix, in that I had a very strict parochial school education, with much rote learning and assigned homework at an early age, much silence in lines and hand folding at desks, and never ever sassing (don't get me started, that's a maming thing to do, to have a child neverargue).. disobedience one of the main sins ever mentioned. I also benefitted from, for at least five years, living in a neighborhood where we 6 to 11 year olds ran free until supper, and then after supper, until dark, assuming we'd done our homework. Of course, back then children and even adults didn't bathe every other minute either.

I love my mother, but I'm so glad she didn't become my sole horizon.

looked at your post again. You talked about time away from structure. I am not that much into structure ( if structure means rigid control of their time) When they were in Montessori they had their work plans and they picked and chose. Which is the beautiful part of Montessori that inspires me. Being a public Montessori though it was still rigid. At 11 everyone did Writers Workshop, which is not that Montessori like.
So I am trying to give them as much independence and free time as possible. He chooses which work to do when , as long as it is done in that day I am happy. I am studying what creates intrinsic motivation so far my research revealed that for things which do not interest us intrinsic motivation simply cannot be created. For example we studied Native indians all this month and read Indian Legends, went to POWWOW, indian museum and researched in the library. All of it was very interesting to him but writing a lengthy report is quickly becoming a drag. I don't blame him. So for next report we may make a documentary using a video camera or record on Audio cassette.
I am deliberately digressing because you may have valuable input given your background. Teaching my own children is completely new and intriguing to me.
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My bias is clear - home schooling pretty much creeps me out.

On the other hand, I am not as adverse as most to parents ever taking their children out of school, for, say, three weeks, for a family trip in something other than July.

Sorry Osso we were writing at the same time. I hear you. I would love to give them what you had. Most of my friends have one or two kids. They all don't come home until six. They are carried to different places right after school. On weekends parents usually have too much on their plate to have that kind of Luxury. Not every one is as lucky as our Soz to have found both worlds in this day and age. Among my circle I consider myself blessed. For now at least, I really enjoy them during the day ( I run amok with them ) so structured activities in the afternoon provide some well deserved structure. I think I am filling my jug (with them) happily !!!

Well, I don't like all the rote and the obedience emphasis in my elementary school, and even high school years. I am probably still catching up on how to argue logically after five decades have passed. Sorry, but I see home schooling as hermetic. Of course there may be exceptions, but to some extent, I see a need for parental influence to be diluted - not to have mom (or dad in some cases, I presume) be the river of all things knowable.

I also don't think it's all that great for the parent or parents.. see it as some kind of escape, in many but probably not all circumstances, from other matters in life.
Anecdotally, I had a friend who dated a test pilot back in the sixties.. who had been home schooled until he went to university at some point re physics and engineering. Ah, he was socially quite odd. But back then homeschooling was probably less socially tuned than it is this decade.