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Vatican admits Bible is corrupted...

 
 
timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Thu 22 Jun, 2006 05:49 pm
xingu wrote:
If a group of bishops, as in this case, make a statement about the Bible they are speaking for the church. They are not allowed to make independent statements that are contrary to the teachings of the church. If this issue was in conflict with the teachings of Rome the Pope would have come out and stated such.

I am unaware of any statements coming from Rome that are in conflict with what these bishops said about the Bible.

Quite. No central teaching of the Catholic Church, that being any teaching relating to morals and matters of faith, has changed since the 4th Century, when Constantine, together with his select Churchly fellows, legitimized and institutionalized his and their vision of the Pauline tradition of Christianity. The notion this position statement represents any "New Teaching" on the part of the Roman Catholic Church is an absurdity founded in ignorance and forwarded in prejudice.

To begin with, what we know as The Bible originated with what we know today as The Roman Catholic Church, as did what we know today as Christianity itself, the 30,000+ permutations of what today is termed Protestantism having emerged and evolved over roughly the past 500 years.

The first, or "semifinal", Jewish codification of a Bible canon was completed around the 2nd Century BCE, the result of rabbinic translation of extant scriptures written in assorted languages (primarily Hebrew, but including others such as Aramaic, Syriac, and Chaldaic) into a unified Greek translation known as The Septuagint, containing 46 books. The final Jewish canon of the Old Testament was codified by the Jewish Council of Javneh, held in 90 CE. After centuries of dispute and controversy, the Jewish scholars and rabbis fixed their canon on what are known as the Masoritic Texts, those written in Hebrew, excluding from their officially sanctioned final canon what are known as the Deuterocanonical Works (the books of Tobit (or Tobias), Judith, Wisdom, Ecclesiasticus, Baruch, and I and II Macabees, along with a few passages from the books of Daniel and Esther), works written originally in Greek or other languages, or at that time existing only in in Greek translation, rather than in Hebrew. Early Christian tradition, however, made no such exclusion, endorsing the Septuagint, which included Javnehn canon and the Deutorocanonical Works excluded by the final Jewish canon. Effectively, Javneh marks the division between Jewish scripture and Christian scripture.

The first version of what today is known as the "New Testament" was written, or at the very least dictated by, an early Christian of decidedly anti-Jewish persuasion, an individual named Marcion, somewhere around the end of the first half of the 2nd Century. Notable in Marcion's version is the absence of any reference to the putative Jesus' Judaic faith and practice. Different, frequently glaringly conflicting, interpolations appeared and proliferated over the next couple centuries or so, occasining considerable dissent and friction in the nascent Christian Church. Not until the Festal Epistle of Athanasius, early in the latter half of the of the 4th Century, did there appear an essential equivalent to the contemporary New Testament. Athanasius' compelation was officially pronounced by the Council of Rome under the authority of Pope Damascus I as authoritatively the accepted canon - in 382, if I recall correctly - giving us the books today accepted as canon. About a decade later, the Synod of Hippo stated the same canon, and pronounced it adopted by and for the whole of The Church.

That notwithstanding, dissention and dispute persisted, pertaining to particulars of both Old and New Testaments, continuing well beyond the 1st Council of Nicea, which though focused on that issue, among others, failed to fully resolve the matter in the minds of many early adherents to Christianity. Not untill the 2nd Nicean council, late in the 8th Century, was the entire Christian Bible canon concretely and finally established. But we get ahead of ourself a bit. It was in the 4th Century that Greek as a common language began to decline in Western Europe, and it was deemed fit to cause to come about a Latin translation of the Christian canon. The task fell to a scholar monk named Jerome, who, using Greek, Latin, Aramaic, Syriac, Chaldaic and Hebrew texts, produced the version known as the Latin Vulgate (meaning more or less "Standard" or "Common" Latin version), completed early in the 5th Century. For nearly a thousand years, Jerome's was THE Christian Bible; there was no other. Not until the Reformation, and largely due to the efforts, unconnected with one another, of Martin Luther and England's King Henry VIII, was there any alternate version.

With the Reformation, and the printing press, came increasing impetus to translate The Bible into various living languages. Contrary to popular myth, The Church was not institutionally opposed to translation of the Bible from Latin into vernaculars, so long as the translations were as consistent with Jerome's Latin Vulgate as would be practicable given the vernacular into which Jerome was translated; in English alone there exist more than a dozen Church-sanctioned, "Authorized", pre-era-of-printing translations, spanning a period from the 7th Century (St. Caedmon's translation) through the 14th Century (translations by Wyecliffe, Shoreham, and others); in Italian, something like 3 or 4 dozen pre-Reformation translations are known, there are numerous assorted pre-Reformation translations into French, Dutch, and both High and Low German as well, among other vernaculars. The Bible printed by Gutenberg was a German version of a Swiss translation known as the "Geneva Bible" - which Geneva Bible, incidentally, in English, was the Bible brought in 1620 by the Puritans to America, but while interesting, thats a whole other story. Anyhow, an upshot of the Reformation-era eagerness to translate the Bible from Latin into assorted vernaculars and disseminate to the masses via the wonderful new technology of printing (and the sudden abundance of cheap paper - but that too is another story) was the discovery that Jerome's version, as codified by The Church, presented some conflict with available earlier Hebraic, Greek, Syriac, Latin, and Aramaic texts; particularly troubling was that many other-than-Jerome texts agreed with one another almost word-for-word, but were different in some one or another (almost without exception minor) particular from that transcribed by Jerome.

Martin Luther undertook to translate Jerome into High German. While based entirely on Jerome's version, essentially book-for-book, line-for-line, but with certain alterations to better, in Luther's view, conform the text to older, more closely original texts, and in not a few cases to reflect his own opinions and interpretations, Luther's first translation of the Bible into German was Jerome as Luther preferred Jerome to be understood. Subsequent revisions by Luther himself and by later Protestant scholars/clerics, shifted some books around, and excluded others (essentially, the Deuterocanonicals, the books today known as the Apocrypha) found in Jerome. Luther, and those following in his footsteps, founded their rejection of the excluded Deuterocanonical works on the basis of their having been excluded from the Jewish Javnehn canon, and for their teachings, thought by the early formers of Protestantism to be too "Catholic" to comport with emerging Protestant doctrine. Thus began the evolution of the Protestant Bible as distinct from the Catholic Bible, the Protestant version containing fewer books, in slightly different order, and shorter versions of some shared books, than for over a millenium prior had ALL previous Bibles.

In the late 16th Century, the Douay-Rheims Catholic Bible was produced, essentially a word-for-word (albeit with minor textual corrections and copiously laden with VERY "Catholic" marginal notations and commentary separate from the main text) English translation of Jerome's Latin Vulgate. Several decades later, in the early 17th Century, the single most influential Protestant Bible, that known as the King James Version, was produced in England, at the behest of James the First (formerly James VI of Scotland), then Monarch, successor to Henry VIII's daughters, and particularly dedicated to the notion of solidifying the Stuart claim to the English throne and its attendent primacy over the Church of England, which institution had been established by Henry VIII. Taking more than 7 years of effort by churchmen, scholars, and politicians (frequently all represented in a given individal), the King James version saw its first semi-public release - it was distributed first to churches only - in 1609. While drawing heavilly on the Douay-Rheims version, the commission established by James I to produce "His" official Bible studiously and scrupulously eliminated the Douay-Rheims' commentary and notations, and somewhat but not entirely in the fashion of Luther ascribed lesser importance to the Deuterocanonical Works and the Apocrypha. Later, more widely disseminated revisions of the King James Version went further afield from the text of the "Catholic" Bible, but the original King James Bible was essentially, by way of its primary source, the Douay-Rheims version, a strict and literal translation, apart from the minor textual corrections introduced by Douay-Rheims, of the canon represented by Jerome's Latin Vulgate.

Now, from the earliest of the Fathers and Doctors of The Church, the official stance always has been that some of the Bible, in its accepted canon, was allegorical, not to be taken literally but rather to be understood as illustrative of, explanatory of, God's Revealed Truth. The writings of Eusebius, Augustine, and Aquinas, signal among those of others, make this point clearly and unambiguously. At the same time, it is simply historically accurate to understand the King James Bible not as the "best" or "most accurate" bible, but rather as the Bible as interpreted by those who's primary interests were to legitimize a dissention-beset monarch's claim to a throne and to solidify that monarch's claim to independent-of-Rome primacy over the Protestant church established by a predecessor of his.




Context often IS everything.
0 Replies
 
xingu
 
  1  
Reply Fri 23 Jun, 2006 07:25 am
Nice one timber; very informative.
0 Replies
 
dalahow2
 
  1  
Reply Sat 24 Jun, 2006 10:19 am
xingu wrote:
If a group of bishops, as in this case, make a statement about the Bible, they are speaking for the church. They are not allowed to make independent statements that are contrary to the teachings of the church. If this issue was in conflict with the teachings of Rome the Pope would have come out and stated such.

I am unaware of any statements coming from Rome that are in conflict with what these bishops said about the Bible.


Thank you Xingu.

Even vatican then accepts "There is something Wrong"..

You need some evidence about this......

What Christians Say about The Book of God

Errors the Bishops are talking about

The Acid Test for the christians

Smile Smile Smile Thank you........
0 Replies
 
timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Sat 24 Jun, 2006 11:54 am
dalahow2, I submit you cannot demonstrate "The Vatican" anywhere, anywhen, says anything which provides support for your assertion, as it exists in and in context of this discussion,
Quote:
Even vatican then accepts "There is something wrong"

I refer you to my post above. As for your claim of Quranic primacy, here is A Different Perspective, and here yet Another.


And lest you somehow mistake me for a Christian Apologist specifically opposed to Islam, allow me to assure you no such condition pertains; I hold Christianity, in all its permutations, its predicate ancestor Judaism, and Islam in equal regard, in fact, I single out no theistic construct for any particular superior regard.
0 Replies
 
xingu
 
  1  
Reply Sat 24 Jun, 2006 01:04 pm
Dalahow2 wrote:
Thank you Xingu.

Even vatican then accepts "There is something Wrong"..


No, the Vatican does not say there is something wrong with the Bible. It has always said that some parts of the Bible are allegorical and should not be taken literally. That does not mean there is "something Wrong".

You are putting your own interpretation into this and your wrong.

Mind you that Christians cannot agree on how to interpret the Bible. Some want a strict interpretation, that is literal truth for all scriptures, and others do not.

I think you will find the same conflict in the Muslim religion. If not why are there Sunnis and Shiites?

Hell man, Americans can't even agree on how to interpret the Constitution and that document is far more succinct than the Bible or Koran.
0 Replies
 
Arella Mae
 
  1  
Reply Mon 26 Jun, 2006 12:54 pm
Muslim1,

I haven't been visiting the forums much of late so I hadn't seen your question to me but Setanta is right about one thing. I am not Catholic. However, I do NOT believe the Pope is the antichrist.

As far as reconciling what the Catholic Church is saying in that article, what is there to reconcile? I believe the Bible is the inspired and protected Word of God so I'm hardly going to accept any "man's" statement that the Bible is fallible. I would imagine that much like you, you wouldn't accept anyone saying such a thing about the Quran either?

God does not change His laws. Man tries to change God's laws to fit what man wants to do. So whether it be the Catholic, Protestant, etc., church saying the Bible is fallible doesn't make it so.

Again, sorry for the delay in getting an answer to you.
0 Replies
 
dalahow2
 
  1  
Reply Thu 29 Jun, 2006 08:09 am
hey
^Mama Angel am sure when you digest the following links, we can talk about Vaticans..Catholics/Pros/Cons...and methodists...


What Christians Say about The Book of God

Errors the Bishops are talking about

The Acid Test for the christians

Smile Smile Smile Thank you........[/quote]
0 Replies
 
Arella Mae
 
  1  
Reply Thu 29 Jun, 2006 05:03 pm
Re: hey
dalahow2 wrote:
^Mama Angel am sure when you digest the following links, we can talk about Vaticans..Catholics/Pros/Cons...and methodists...


What Christians Say about The Book of God

First, not everyone that says they are a Christian actually are a Christian. So, I know nothing about these "chrisitians" who are saying what they are saying about the book of God but, I believe the Bible is the Word of God and frankly, it doesn't matter what any other person says about it.[/b]

Errors the Bishops are talking about

See my above answer concerning this also.

The Acid Test for the christians

Excuse me if this sounds rude dalahow2, but is this a Muslim test for Christians?

Smile Smile Smile Thank you........
0 Replies
 
dalahow2
 
  1  
Reply Tue 11 Jul, 2006 03:52 am
Not at all
I hope not...This is just to say, Please have a look at a concrete details of your religion..Check if it was Jesus who brought christianity or Paul.

We muslims believe in what was brought by Jesus...
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Tue 11 Jul, 2006 04:11 am
Re: Not at all
dalahow2 wrote:
I hope not...This is just to say, Please have a look at a concrete details of your religion..Check if it was Jesus who brought christianity or Paul.

We muslims believe in what was brought by Jesus...


Ask most Christians to defend a particular facet of their religion...and they ALMOST ALWAYS quote something Paul wrote...and ALMOST NEVER quote anything Jesus reportedly said!

That is significant.
0 Replies
 
Arella Mae
 
  1  
Reply Tue 11 Jul, 2006 12:23 pm
Re: Not at all
dalahow2 wrote:
I hope not...This is just to say, Please have a look at a concrete details of your religion..Check if it was Jesus who brought christianity or Paul.

We muslims believe in what was brought by Jesus...


As do I dalahow2. However, Jesus was not the only one that spread His word.
0 Replies
 
Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Tue 11 Jul, 2006 12:33 pm
Re: Vatican admits Bible is corrupted...
muslim1 wrote:
The Catholic bishops of England, Wales and Scotland are warning their five million worshippers, as well as any others drawn to the study of scripture, that they should not expect "total accuracy" from the Bible.

"We should not expect to find in Scripture full scientific accuracy or complete historical precision," they say in The Gift of Scripture.

Old news. The Catholic Church has always taken the position that the Bible is the God-inspired work of fallible writers.

Alert me again when Jerry Falwell says this.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Tue 11 Jul, 2006 12:34 pm
Re: Vatican admits Bible is corrupted...
Thomas wrote:
muslim1 wrote:
The Catholic bishops of England, Wales and Scotland are warning their five million worshippers, as well as any others drawn to the study of scripture, that they should not expect "total accuracy" from the Bible.

"We should not expect to find in Scripture full scientific accuracy or complete historical precision," they say in The Gift of Scripture.

Old news. The Catholic Church has always taken the position that the Bible is the God-inspired work of fallible writers.

Alert me again when Jerry Falwell says this.


Oh man, i laughed out loud at that one . . . nearly busted a gut . . .
0 Replies
 
NickFun
 
  1  
Reply Tue 11 Jul, 2006 12:47 pm
So the Bible is just a load of hooey? Damn! I was hoping to master that art of changing water into wine. Preferably a '76 Bordeaux. Damn!
0 Replies
 
dalahow2
 
  1  
Reply Sun 16 Jul, 2006 04:14 am
links
Quote:
dalahow2 wrote:
I hope not...This is just to say, Please have a look at a concrete details of your religion..Check if it was Jesus who brought christianity or Paul.

We muslims believe in what was brought by Jesus...


Ask most Christians to defend a particular facet of their religion...and they ALMOST ALWAYS quote something Paul wrote...and ALMOST NEVER quote anything Jesus reportedly said!

That is significant.


NickFun wrote:
So the Bible is just a load of hooey? Damn! I was hoping to master that art of changing water into wine. Preferably a '76 Bordeaux. Damn!


I think we have reached where we need to reason.....

Now please have a look at this following statements(No need for baised reasoning):

Please read this link before proceeding...All information need to be scrutinized/Compared so that we come up with a possible solution to the thread..


Smile Smile Smile
0 Replies
 
nick17
 
  1  
Reply Thu 20 Jul, 2006 04:38 pm
Did this come straight from the Pope? Or just from some loony american bishops???
0 Replies
 
Im the other one
 
  1  
Reply Sun 23 Jul, 2006 02:38 pm
Considering it's the Catholic Church who says this, it comes as no surprise at all.
0 Replies
 
dalahow2
 
  1  
Reply Mon 24 Jul, 2006 04:19 am
Re: Vatican admits Bible is corrupted...
Thomas wrote:
muslim1 wrote:
The Catholic bishops of England, Wales and Scotland are warning their five million worshippers, as well as any others drawn to the study of scripture, that they should not expect "total accuracy" from the Bible.

"We should not expect to find in Scripture full scientific accuracy or complete historical precision," they say in The Gift of Scripture.
0 Replies
 
muslim1
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 Aug, 2006 09:43 am
I believe Catholics consider the Bible as being God inspired written by humans. Now, how they determine which fragments of the Bible are authentic and which are false? What are their ultimate criteria to define truth and falsehood? I mean, if two Catholics disagree whether a verse is God's word or not, how would one convince the other?
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 Aug, 2006 10:44 am
Yes, as opposed to the Quran, dictated (allegedly) to his followers by an illiterate ne'er-do-well who claimed divine revelation. Yes, let's put more credence in the latter.
0 Replies
 
 

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