Free speech for me but not for thee. ACLU busted!

mysteryman wrote:

Its not mine.
I didnt post it,I didnt comment on it,and I have expressed no opinion about it either way.

I was simply pointing out where the discussion has gone instead of where it started.

You are correct, you did not originally post the partisan article. My mistake.

But you are trying to get us to agree with the article's premise that internal squabbling among a handful of ACLU leaders is somehow more important than the fact that the ACLU is taking a strong stance that fraud and deception in advertising are not Free Speech issues, as indeed they are not.

The right wing is trying to bash the ACLU, and in so doing has come out in favor of fraud and deception in advertising by their side. Yet, they insist we not notice this. Well, we DO notice, and we don't mind telling you so.

What these anti-choice groups are doing with these phony centers is fraudulent, deceptive and misleading, and it should be made illegal.

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kelticwizard wrote:

mysteryman wrote:
Its not mine.
I didnt post it,I didnt comment on it,and I have expressed no opinion about it either way.

I was simply pointing out where the discussion has gone instead of where it started.

You are correct, you did not originally post the partisan article. My mistake.

But you are trying to get us to agree with the article's premise that internal squabbling among a handful of ACLU leaders is somehow more important than the fact that the ACLU is taking a strong stance that fraud and deception in advertising are not Free Speech issues, as indeed they are not.

The right wing is trying to bash the ACLU, and in so doing has come out in favor of fraud and deception in advertising by their side. Yet, they insist we not notice this. Well, we DO notice, and we don't mind telling you so.

What these anti-choice groups are doing with these phony centers is fraudulent, deceptive and misleading, and it should be made illegal.

Without commenting on the article in question,I wanna ask a question.

If what is being done is fraud,then are the employment agencies that just offer you lists of jobs fraudulent?

What about those commercials about govt foreclosures?
They offer you seized property,but all they do is give you a list of govt auctions.
Is that fraudulent?

What about the ads you see in the paper for jobs with the postal service?
They dont get you a job,they tell you when and where the govt tests will be.

Are those fraudulent?

If you are really serious about "fraud" in advertising a service,then why dont you seem concerned about these?

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mysteryman wrote:

Without commenting on the article in question,I wanna ask a question.

If what is being done is fraud,then are the employment agencies that just offer you lists of jobs fraudulent?

What about those commercials about govt foreclosures?
They offer you seized property,but all they do is give you a list of govt auctions.
Is that fraudulent?

What about the ads you see in the paper for jobs with the postal service?
They dont get you a job,they tell you when and where the govt tests will be.

Are those fraudulent?

If you are really serious about "fraud" in advertising a service,then why dont you seem concerned about these?

Mysteryman, you may not have read all posts, but fine if you did not because it proves the obvious, which is you have been independently noticing the same thing I have noticed with misleading advertising in all kinds of areas. I mentioned some of the same things in an earlier post, and made the same point you did, that if fraud was the true concern rather than protecting their sacred cow, which is abortion clinics, then legislation would address all areas, not just abortion clinics.

KelticWizard wrote:

What these anti-choice groups are doing with these phony centers is fraudulent, deceptive and misleading, and it should be made illegal.

KelticWizard, I will take you seriously and the ACLU seriously if they actually would be unbiased instead of obviously interested in their little agenda, which includes protecting abortionists. Furthermore, when they also make "Planned Parenthood" change their name to "Planned Abortion," then I might take this matter seriously about changing the name of abortion clinics that offer counseling concerning alternatives to abortion.

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The ACLU is a laughing stock. They are so far away from the mainstream because of their ultra liberal approches, they are becoming a caricature.

Anyone with a son or daughter who goes to the Public Library should be enraged at the idiocy of the ACLU vis a vis Pornography in Libraries.

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mysteryman wrote:

Without commenting on the article in question,I wanna ask a question.

You may ask a question.

mysteryman wrote:

If what is being done is fraud,then are the employment agencies that just offer you lists of jobs fraudulent?

What about those commercials about govt foreclosures?

What about the ads you see in the paper for jobs with the postal service?
They dont get you a job,they tell you when and where the govt tests will be.

Are those fraudulent?

Sorry, that's three questions.

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Mysteryman- Keltic Wizard's response is a clear example of limping sophistry at work. Fearing a trap, he responds with a non=sequitur.

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kelticwizard wrote:

mysteryman wrote:
Without commenting on the article in question,I wanna ask a question.

You may ask a question.

mysteryman wrote:
If what is being done is fraud,then are the employment agencies that just offer you lists of jobs fraudulent?

What about those commercials about govt foreclosures?

What about the ads you see in the paper for jobs with the postal service?
They dont get you a job,they tell you when and where the govt tests will be.

Are those fraudulent?

Sorry, that's three questions.

That way,you have a choice of what question to answer.

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kelticwizard wrote:

Sorry, that's three questions.

Thats a slick dodge when you don't wish to answer the obvious.

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No, it's a way of letting you know that I have no intention of answering a bellicose barrage of questions designed to sidetrack the issue of fraudulent or misleading advertising.

I don't have to give a verdict on every single want ad out there to point out that anti-choice centers which advertise themselves under Abortion Services for the purpose of luring women seeking an abortion into the center where they can be set upon by professionally trained anti-choice convincers are engaging in a fraudulent practice which should be outlawed.

However, just to show how easy-going a guy I am, I'm actually going to deal with one of MM's questions-the one about the postal service ad where all they do is provide times when the test is taken.

Obviously, I haven't seen the ad, so I don't know what is promised and what is not. But at any rate, it is irrelevant to this discussion, since even providing the list of test times and locations in some way facilitates the person getting a job in the postal service. Now, if someone in authority sees the ad and decides it promises more than a mere list of test times can deliver, then we have fraud. Nevertheless, the list does in some way facilitate a person getting a post office job.

Clearly, this is not the case with anti-abortion centers advertising under Abortion Services, since their whole reason for being is to PREVENT people who respond from getting abortions. Not only does it not facilitate what is advertised, as the post office exam list does, it absolutely goes in the opposite direction. That is why the anti-choiice centers are so clearly engaging in fraud, and the post office list requires more information to make a decision.

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Mysteryman wrote:

If you are really serious about "fraud" in advertising a service,then why dont you seem concerned about these?

okie wrote:

.....that if fraud was the true concern rather than protecting their sacred cow, which is abortion clinics, then legislation would address all areas, not just abortion clinics.

Sorry MM and Okie, but I have already answered your little gambit in previous posts. Just because I'm a nice guy, however, I will dispose of it again.

Your claim is that people like myself who object to the anti-choice deception of advertising anti-abortion centers under Abortion Counseling are not really concerned about fraud, or else we would immediately embark on a crusade to end all forms of fraud, not just the fraud performed by these anti-choice centers. It is a ridiculous argument.

First, there are many, many laws which deal with specific forms of fraud. As new scams emerge which present laws might not be effective in stopping, new laws are written to stop the scams. Think of all the securities fraud laws there are-many of them were written to prevent one single form of scam. Similarly, many laws are written to prevent one single form of fraud or deception in selling new or used cars, houses, and many other things. Let's just take the law which says you cannot roll back the odometer of a used car. Would you take it off the books because if the people who wrote it were REALLY worried about fraud, they would write a law against all fraud in it's many forms, and not just the used car salesmen who roll back odometers?

Your preposterous arguments are designed to throw suspicion on people who object to the obviously deceptive practice of advertising anti-choice centers under headings of Abortion Services, when clearly no such services exist at these places. It is a sign of the weakness of your position that you would resort to such nonsense.

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How can any anti abortion facility be anti-choice?

That makes no sense,and if you would think about it for a minute,you would agree.

Even if a place advertizes itself as an anti abortion counseling service,it is still a pro-choice place.

Last time I checked,choice means having more then one option.
So,if someplace claims to be pro choice and anti abortion,the 2 terms are not mutually exclusive.

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kelticwizard wrote:

I don't have to give a verdict on every single want ad out there to point out that anti-choice centers which advertise themselves under Abortion Services for the purpose of luring women seeking an abortion into the center where they can be set upon by professionally trained anti-choice convincers are engaging in a fraudulent practice which should be outlawed.

"....set upon by professionally trained anti-choice convincers...."

Attention all sales people, you bunch of criminals, kelticwizard is coming you. How dare you be trained in selling people stuff they might not want. And don't even try to "lure" people into your stores so that you can "set upon them." Be hanged all of ya.

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Okie-I wonder if Keltic Wizard is concerned about "the professionally trained anti-suicide convincers that set upon those who are in deep depression. Both the anti-suicide and the anti-abortion people feel that they can save lives.

But,Keltic Wizard apparently does not believe in the First Amendment--
The ACLU wants to keep Pornography in Libraries but not Ant- Abortion counsulers. Go figure!!!

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mysteryman wrote:

How can any anti abortion facility be anti-choice?

Because the people in those centers would legally prevent any woman from terminating a pregnancy. They would like to take away her choice, if they could.

mysteryman wrote:

Even if a place advertizes itself as an anti abortion counseling service,it is still a pro-choice place.

But these places don't advertise themselves as anti-abortion centers. They advertise under Abortion Services and then try to talk women out of getting the abortion they are seeking. That is why they are engaging in fraud.

mysteryman wrote:

Last time I checked,choice means having more then one option.

You're right. Women should have the option to terminate a pregancy or not to. Unfortunately, the people in these centers would like to take that choice away from her.

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okie wrote:

"....set upon by professionally trained anti-choice convincers...."

Attention all sales people, you bunch of criminals, kelticwizard is coming you. How dare you be trained in selling people stuff they might not want. And don't even try to "lure" people into your stores so that you can "set upon them." Be hanged all of ya.

Glad you brought the retail store analogy up. If a retail store advertises that is has a 300 watt per channel amp on sale for $199, then it has to have a stock of those units rated at 300 watts on hand or else they are open to prosecution. They are NOT allowed to have none in stock but have salesmen who try to tell the customer that they really don't want a 300 watt per channel amp anyway.

Yet these anti-choice centers do pretty much the same thing. They advertise under the heading of Abortion Services, but they have no intention of facilitaing this procedure and instead try to tell the woman she really doesn't want one.

This is clearly fraud, it should be made illegal and the people in these centers should be prosecuted just like the owner of the fraudulent electronics store should be prosecuted.

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Keltic Wizard wrote:

This is clearly fraud, it should be made illegal and the people in these centers should be prosecuted just like the owner of the fraudulent electronics store should be prosecuted.

I don't think you really know what Fraud is, Keltic Wizard. I'll tell you what fraud is.

Fraud is the most pariodied phrase in Supreme Court History which established a right not found in the Constitution- The right to privacy--which even Blackmun, who was the leader in writing Roe Va. Wade admitted when he said:

"The Constitution does not explicity mention any right of privacy>

Then, how did we get there?

FRAUD!!!!

William O. Douglas wrote:

"specific guarantees in the Bill of Rights have penumbras, formed by emanations from those guarantees that help give them life and substance"

penumbras? Emanations? In the USSC?

Liberal Fraud is what it is!!

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kelticwizard:

"Because the people in those centers would legally prevent any woman from terminating a pregnancy. They would like to take away her choice, if they could. "

You are mad at them for operating within the confines of the law. If you are mad at them for beating the baby killers at their own game then fine but it shouldn't take new laws to try and beat them. You are mad at them for what they think and what they do. They are acting within the law and providing a service that you don't like. That should be fine. They are giving the women a choice in what they can do. I thought the left was all about choice. I guess this shows that you don't support choice. You want to corner the market and only make one thing available without a choice being there.

"But these places don't advertise themselves as anti-abortion centers. They advertise under Abortion Services and then try to talk women out of getting the abortion they are seeking. That is why they are engaging in fraud. "

It isn't fraud. It is offering them a choice. Do abortions centers have to offer up all the alternative choices? I think there is a minimal level they have to provide by law and you know anyone out to make a buck are only going to tell you what they have to in order to make their sale.

"You're right. Women should have the option to terminate a pregancy or not to. Unfortunately, the people in these centers would like to take that choice away from her."

It doesn't matter what their personal choice is, what matters is that they operate within the law and that they are doing. You want to change the law to take away their choice. How is that fair. Just because you don't like their point of view doesn't mean you should change the law to silence them. Does the phone book have an anti-abortion section? I know they don't have a baby killing section because that is where abortion clinics should be listed. After all they kill babies don't they? If you want such truth in advertising we might as well go all the way.

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kelticwizard wrote:

okie wrote:
"....set upon by professionally trained anti-choice convincers...."

Attention all sales people, you bunch of criminals, kelticwizard is coming you. How dare you be trained in selling people stuff they might not want. And don't even try to "lure" people into your stores so that you can "set upon them." Be hanged all of ya.

Glad you brought the retail store analogy up. If a retail store advertises that is has a 300 watt per channel amp on sale for $199, then it has to have a stock of those units rated at 300 watts on hand or else they are open to prosecution. They are NOT allowed to have none in stock but have salesmen who try to tell the customer that they really don't want a 300 watt per channel amp anyway.

Yet these anti-choice centers do pretty much the same thing. They advertise under the heading of Abortion Services, but they have no intention of facilitaing this procedure and instead try to tell the woman she really doesn't want one.

This is clearly fraud, it should be made illegal and the people in these centers should be prosecuted just like the owner of the fraudulent electronics store should be prosecuted.

The difference between advertising abortion services and advertising something for sale is the fact that a large part of abortion services is counseling, and the decision to have an abortion or not, not just the act of abortion. I think most people understand that basic point. So people receiving counseling in regard to abortion services is receiving a service. They apparently do not advertise, "abortions performed here," in which case that would be more misrepresentative. They are instead receiving counseling in regard to abortion, which is part of the service.

If I go to an auto mechanic advertising car repair, is he not allowed to legally tell me I have other options besides fixing the car? Maybe he tells me the fix is going to cost me too much, so he tells me it isn't wise to fix it, that I should explore other options. Should that be illegal? If someone advertises "auto repair services" but only does analysis of the problems and then tells me what I should do in his opinion, should that be illegal?

For many reasons, this problem you have with clinics does not rise to the level of fraud unless someone is bilked out of some money. It is a slippery slope and I don't think we should go there legislatively, no more than I think "Planned Parenthood" should be forced to change their name.

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I think Baldimo and Okie just eviscerated KelticWizard's argument.

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kelticwizard wrote:

The centers in question advertise that they provide abortion services, when in fact they provide no such services and simply try to talk the woman out of getting an abortion.

It's a clear case of false and misleading advertising, and I see no big contridiction in the ACLU supporting a law which prevents these centers from doing this.

Its just an issue
of addressing a FRAUD.

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Free speech for me but not for thee. ACLU busted!

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