RexRed
 
  1  
Reply Sat 5 Aug, 2006 09:21 am
http://www.selfgrowth.com/articles/Tincher72.html

I once saw in a movie that Charles Dickens handwriting changed radially over the course of his literary career. It went from fairly crude to very refined.

Perhaps penmanship changes can often bring on writing style changes. It also depends on what you are writing i.e. dreams, history, biography, autobiography, essay, etc... Subject changes can bring on different styles depending on how a person views a certain thing, favorably or not so. I wonder if even writing, typing, writing in scrolls as opposed to on clay can actually change the style of an author too. Cut and paste certainly aids the unimpeded train of thought once the initial learning curve is overcome.
0 Replies
 
Wolf ODonnell
 
  1  
Reply Sat 5 Aug, 2006 10:52 am
RexRed wrote:


Dunno.

Since when has love bombing got anything to do with the topic on hand?
0 Replies
 
timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Sat 5 Aug, 2006 09:51 pm
rl, well established, with or without your recognition or acknowledgement, is your persistent resort to straw man argument. In the particular instance of the current reference to Josephus, you manage an egregious example of the genre. The available conclusiuons amount to 2; either you do so consciously and maliciously, or you do so in total ignorance. I can't bring myself to dismiss you as malicious.
0 Replies
 
real life
 
  1  
Reply Sun 6 Aug, 2006 12:01 am
hi timber,

It would seem that anything you can't or don't want to address is consistently labeled a 'straw man'. It is your favorite dodge.

It is unfortunate that you cannot or will not defend your own statements, but instead try to turn the subject and focus on individuals, tossing out childish insults.

'Yer jest ignorant' is hardly an argument.

If you think I am creating a straw man by mischaracterizing your argument, then set the record straight.

You stated:

Quote:
You might as well forget about trying to use Josephus as provenance; as a Jew, he naturally would have knowledge of and respect for the Jewish Canon,


I have repeatedly challenged you to justify your dismissal of Josephus on the basis that he was a Jew.

You cannot do so.

Are only non-Jews or atheists considered reliable sources in Jewish history?

Are only non-Americans considered reliable sources in American history, because obviously Americans would have knowledge of and respect for the American Constitution, Bill of Rights, Declaration of Independence, free enterprise system etc ?

I have also challenged you to present evidence and reasoned argument to support your other statements , such as the existence of 'three Isaiahs'.

So far, all we've heard is 'well , all legitimate scholars take the same positon as I' .

It may impress others, but it is an empty cream puff.
0 Replies
 
snood
 
  1  
Reply Sun 6 Aug, 2006 01:31 am
I'll have you know sir, that my opinions are echoed and supported by everyone who's anyone.
0 Replies
 
timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Sun 6 Aug, 2006 01:31 am
You really don't get it, do you?
0 Replies
 
timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Sun 6 Aug, 2006 04:09 am
The simple fact is that the overwhelming consensus of scholars not of evangelical, fundamentalist, conservative Christian, Biblical literalist persuasion is that Isaiah comprises the work of multiple authors over a period of centuries. While fundies dispute this assessment of Isaiah, theirs is a contrarian, minority viewpoint founded in nothing more concrete than determination to believe regardless of evidence.

Quote:
... The book of Isaiah provides a fine illustration of the growth of prophetic traditions. The entire book of Isaiah is attributed to Isaiah ben-Amoz (not to be confused with the prophet Amos) by the editorial superscription in 1:1. In fact, the book contains prophetic material spanning more than two hundred years. A nucleus of material is attributable to Isaiah of Jerusalem, a citizen of Jerusalem in the eighth century B.C.E. The remainder comes from a series of anonymous disciples (see 8:16, which mentions his followers) and prophets who saw themselves, or were seen by editors, as coming out of the Isaiah mold.
The book of Isaiah is widely recognized to consist of three sub-collections. Chapters 1-39 is First Isaiah. The core of this collection is prophecies from the namesake of the book who lived in the eighth century B.C.E. In this period Israel and Judah were threatened by the Assyrian empire. Chapters 40-55 is Second Isaiah also called Deutero-Isaiah. This collection consists largely of salvation oracles applying to the situation of exile in Babylonia dating to the mid-sixth century B.C.E. Chapters 56-66 is Third Isaiah, also called Trito-Isaiah, and applies to the late sixth century in Judah where a Jewish community was struggling to rebuild itself. Source


Quote:
The book of Isaiah actually appears to be a composite work of different prophets (or prophetic bands): "First Isaiah" before the Babylonian Exile (in the eighth century), "Second Isaiah" during the Exile (sixth century), and "Third Isaiah" after the Exile (later sixth century; see the chapter breakdown of all three Isaiahs on p. 145 of the textbook). All of the authors focus on God's judgment, the covenant, and the majesty and righteousness of God.
Source


Quote:
Students of the Book of Isaiah have long recognized that there are three Isaiahs writing in this book, spread out over a two to three century period.
Source


Quote:
Modern scholarship remains convinced that the book of Isaiah emerged over a period of two or three centuries.
Source


Quote:
There is a significant school of scholars, perhaps even the majority, who believe that there were two or three Isaiahs, for example -- one who wrote in 8th century BC, one in 5th century BC and another even later.
Source


Quote:
Most scholars today see three Isaiahs, for chapters 1-39, 40-55, and 56-66, describing three periods:threat of punishment, exile, and restoration.
Source


Quote:
Like George A. F. Knight's earlier commentaries on Isaiah 40-55 and 56-66, Widyapranawa also presupposes the standard critical theory of "three Isaiahs." The portions of chapters 1-39 which are usually ascribed to later redactors are duly
noted, as are other well-accepted critical views of the text.
Source (Note: 31 pg .pdf dowload)


Quote:
For example, in the Book of Isaiah, scholars have found eight different layers of tradition - three Isaiahs, one after another, then a committee, and so on. There is deterioration in the religion when people write down not what they know but that they have been told, and then quarrel about minutiae.
Source


Quote:
For example, at least three "Isaiahs" contributed to the book in a different time period.
Source


Quote:
Just as on the case of Isaiah, commentators are strongly convinced that there were three Isaiahs, so here there is a strong conviction that there are two Zecharias.
Source


Quote:
They used to say there were two Isaiahs, then there were three Isaiahs, then there were four Isaiahs and, finally, now they say there's the "school of Isaiahs."
Source
(John Ankerberg, no less Smile )

See also:
A History of Prophecy in Israel: Blenkinsopp, J.
John Knox/Westminster Press, Louisville Ky (1983, Rev. Sept 1996)
ISBN: 0664256392

Prophecy and Society in Ancient Israel: Wilson, R.
Augsburg Fortress Publishing, Minneapolis Mn (1980)
ISBN: 0521423929

The World of Ancient Israel: Clements, R. (Ed.)
Cambridge University Press, New York NY
ISBN: 0800618149

Anchor Bible Dictionary: Freedman, N. (Ed)
(Isaiah 34-35,40-66, John L. McKenzie (1969), Isaiah 1-39, Joseph Blenkinsopp, 2000, Isaiah 40-55, Joseph Blenkinsopp, 2002, Isaiah 56-66, Joseph Blenkinsopp, 2003)
6 Vols, Random House Reference and Information Publishing, New York NY (1992, Rev. 2005)
ISBN: 038542583(1-6)

I could go on and on, but what would be the point? The fundies get all wadded up about it - as they do whenever they are subjected to objective criticism - but that does not change the fact that the overwhelming consensus of legitimate, objective, academically founded scholars is that Isaiah is the work of several authors and took shape over a period of centuries before becoming canonized as it today is, and from somewhere in the 2nd Century BCE has been, known.



Oh, and rl, wholly apart from the above - if you still can't see your straw man re my Josephus remark to Neo, that's not only understandable, but frankly to be expected ... as well as pathetic.
0 Replies
 
real life
 
  1  
Reply Mon 7 Aug, 2006 02:39 pm
timberlandko wrote:
The simple fact is that the overwhelming consensus of scholars not of evangelical, fundamentalist, conservative Christian, Biblical literalist persuasion is that Isaiah comprises the work of multiple authors over a period of centuries. While fundies dispute this assessment of Isaiah, theirs is a contrarian, minority viewpoint founded in nothing more concrete than determination to believe regardless of evidence.

Quote:
... The book of Isaiah provides a fine illustration of the growth of prophetic traditions. The entire book of Isaiah is attributed to Isaiah ben-Amoz (not to be confused with the prophet Amos) by the editorial superscription in 1:1. In fact, the book contains prophetic material spanning more than two hundred years. A nucleus of material is attributable to Isaiah of Jerusalem, a citizen of Jerusalem in the eighth century B.C.E. The remainder comes from a series of anonymous disciples (see 8:16, which mentions his followers) and prophets who saw themselves, or were seen by editors, as coming out of the Isaiah mold.
The book of Isaiah is widely recognized to consist of three sub-collections. Chapters 1-39 is First Isaiah. The core of this collection is prophecies from the namesake of the book who lived in the eighth century B.C.E. In this period Israel and Judah were threatened by the Assyrian empire. Chapters 40-55 is Second Isaiah also called Deutero-Isaiah. This collection consists largely of salvation oracles applying to the situation of exile in Babylonia dating to the mid-sixth century B.C.E. Chapters 56-66 is Third Isaiah, also called Trito-Isaiah, and applies to the late sixth century in Judah where a Jewish community was struggling to rebuild itself. Source


Quote:
The book of Isaiah actually appears to be a composite work of different prophets (or prophetic bands): "First Isaiah" before the Babylonian Exile (in the eighth century), "Second Isaiah" during the Exile (sixth century), and "Third Isaiah" after the Exile (later sixth century; see the chapter breakdown of all three Isaiahs on p. 145 of the textbook). All of the authors focus on God's judgment, the covenant, and the majesty and righteousness of God.
Source


Quote:
Students of the Book of Isaiah have long recognized that there are three Isaiahs writing in this book, spread out over a two to three century period.
Source


Quote:
Modern scholarship remains convinced that the book of Isaiah emerged over a period of two or three centuries.
Source


Quote:
There is a significant school of scholars, perhaps even the majority, who believe that there were two or three Isaiahs, for example -- one who wrote in 8th century BC, one in 5th century BC and another even later.
Source


Quote:
Most scholars today see three Isaiahs, for chapters 1-39, 40-55, and 56-66, describing three periods:threat of punishment, exile, and restoration.
Source


Quote:
Like George A. F. Knight's earlier commentaries on Isaiah 40-55 and 56-66, Widyapranawa also presupposes the standard critical theory of "three Isaiahs." The portions of chapters 1-39 which are usually ascribed to later redactors are duly
noted, as are other well-accepted critical views of the text.
Source (Note: 31 pg .pdf dowload)


Quote:
For example, in the Book of Isaiah, scholars have found eight different layers of tradition - three Isaiahs, one after another, then a committee, and so on. There is deterioration in the religion when people write down not what they know but that they have been told, and then quarrel about minutiae.
Source


Quote:
For example, at least three "Isaiahs" contributed to the book in a different time period.
Source


Quote:
Just as on the case of Isaiah, commentators are strongly convinced that there were three Isaiahs, so here there is a strong conviction that there are two Zecharias.
Source


Quote:
They used to say there were two Isaiahs, then there were three Isaiahs, then there were four Isaiahs and, finally, now they say there's the "school of Isaiahs."
Source
(John Ankerberg, no less Smile )

See also:
A History of Prophecy in Israel: Blenkinsopp, J.
John Knox/Westminster Press, Louisville Ky (1983, Rev. Sept 1996)
ISBN: 0664256392

Prophecy and Society in Ancient Israel: Wilson, R.
Augsburg Fortress Publishing, Minneapolis Mn (1980)
ISBN: 0521423929

The World of Ancient Israel: Clements, R. (Ed.)
Cambridge University Press, New York NY
ISBN: 0800618149

Anchor Bible Dictionary: Freedman, N. (Ed)
(Isaiah 34-35,40-66, John L. McKenzie (1969), Isaiah 1-39, Joseph Blenkinsopp, 2000, Isaiah 40-55, Joseph Blenkinsopp, 2002, Isaiah 56-66, Joseph Blenkinsopp, 2003)
6 Vols, Random House Reference and Information Publishing, New York NY (1992, Rev. 2005)
ISBN: 038542583(1-6)

I could go on and on, but what would be the point? The fundies get all wadded up about it - as they do whenever they are subjected to objective criticism - but that does not change the fact that the overwhelming consensus of legitimate, objective, academically founded scholars is that Isaiah is the work of several authors and took shape over a period of centuries before becoming canonized as it today is, and from somewhere in the 2nd Century BCE has been, known.



Oh, and rl, wholly apart from the above - if you still can't see your straw man re my Josephus remark to Neo, that's not only understandable, but frankly to be expected ... as well as pathetic.


Lots of assertions regarding Isaiah..............

..................not a scrap of evidence presented.

Just a bunch of nodding heads saying 'Yep , everybody here agrees, so it must be so.' but no factual basis to back it up.

Why am I not surprised?

And no defense of the dismissal of Josephus.

Again no surprise, because it is really indefensible.

(btw -- Your quote from Ankerberg's website does not support your view. If you read it in context, the author, Dr Robert A Morey, is ridiculing your view.)
0 Replies
 
timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Mon 7 Aug, 2006 07:56 pm
When it comes to missing points, or at least seeming to, rl, you're a champ. I say again, and point in particular to Ankerberg's statement as validation, that the overwhelming majority consensus of legitimate, objective biblical scholars and historians is, by textual, linguistic, culturally referential evidence, the work of multiple authors, assembled over a period of centuries before becomming canonized as it is known today. Only biblical literalists hold otherwise.

And you really can't see that your Josephus rant is pure straw man, can you? Indeed, it is fun watching you try to make your posts appear to be relevant and substantive. And while saying things again, I'll repeat that with proponents who's views and skills are the equal of those evidenced through your postings, your proposition has little need for independent external opposition ... whether or not absurdity is all you and your like have is moot; its all you bring to the discussion.
0 Replies
 
real life
 
  1  
Reply Mon 7 Aug, 2006 10:47 pm
You want desperately to claim that I have misrepresented your position regarding Josephus and erected a straw man. But there's nothing to hang your statement on.

So you plow ahead with no defense.

Your claim that:

Quote:
You might as well forget about trying to use Josephus as provenance; as a Jew, he naturally would have knowledge of and respect for the Jewish Canon,


is a classic. I'm considering immortalizing it in my sig.

Since you probably don't read any American authors for American history (for the same reason, they'd have knowledge of it and respect for our founding documents) I wonder who you rely on for American history? The French, perhaps?

------------------------------------

Also again no evidence regarding Isaiah.

It's not that I don't understand your point.

It's that you've provided no support for it.

Same bald assertions with no foundation other than: 'well read this, lots of liberal preachers believe it'.

You copied about 10 assertions to that effect, but NO evidence. Not even a sentence.

Do you have any?

Do you even understand the reasons your liberal sources hold the position that they do?

Apparently not, because all you've posted is: 'all these guys believe like I do and I'm impressed with their credentials so you should be too.'

--------------------------------------------

And it's sad, timber, when you won't even read your own cut and paste sources.

You posted a statement from Ankerberg's website which you seem to attribute to Ankerberg.

But it is not a statement that Ankerberg made.

The author is named Morey.

And he didn't support your view.

He mocked it.

Sad, indeed. For you. Laughing
0 Replies
 
Wolf ODonnell
 
  1  
Reply Tue 8 Aug, 2006 06:22 am
Unlike you, RL, Timber is actually giving evidence to support his suggestions. The references themselves, will tell you how they came to their conclusions and the references within those books or articles will tell you how good their assumptions are.
0 Replies
 
timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Tue 8 Aug, 2006 07:11 am
Nothing but more straw men and red herrings in your latest delusional rant, rl - again, whether that's all you've got or not, whether you recognize it or not, that's all you bring to the discussion. I must say I trust you do not do so maliciously; I would prefer to consider you simply disingenuous as opposed to calculatedly duplicitous, as I truly have no wish to disrespect you as a person.
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Tue 8 Aug, 2006 07:57 am
Any scientist ought to know that according to the materialist theory of mind, which is, or purports to be, a scientific theory, all thoughts are objects consisting of the usual stuff. It gets a bit complicated after that.

Imagine pouring a bottle of red ink into a large pool of water. Thoughts waft about something like that only they dont ever fully diffuse.

If we go from ink/water to any two liquids we find some immiscible no matter what we do. In the office I mean.

And timber and rl have types of thoughts which won't mix. In fact they might not mix with anything.

Those of us who can mix with anything would try to adapt to both of them if we were stuck in a cell with them for a few years, and emerge completely unscathed.

Although I will say that being a touch too miscible can get you into some very fine messes.
0 Replies
 
Wolf ODonnell
 
  1  
Reply Tue 8 Aug, 2006 08:06 am
spendius wrote:
Any scientist ought to know that according to the materialist theory of mind, which is, or purports to be, a scientific theory, all thoughts are objects consisting of the usual stuff. It gets a bit complicated after that.


Really? Because last I checked materialism was a philosophy term, not a scientific theory. Would you care to provide a source for this statement you've made?
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Tue 8 Aug, 2006 08:23 am
How can materialism be anything other than scientific. The two words are synonymous. Science studies material materially.It doesn't study the immaterial at all. It doesn't accept there is any such thing as the immaterial. To do so is on the road to the soul and once a soul it can be saved and report back in slow deep meaningful tones, like an oracle, from the roof of the medium's tent at the fair.

What has philosophy got to do with it.

I began my short career on A2K to expose the fraud of philosophy but, apart from the dark Queen of the Manhattan twightlight and her consort, little interest was shown. Indeed, we got so far off topic that I had slight misgivings that Lola might be a philosophers plant encouraging the thread to dribble away off the bottom of one page and then another and now it is lost somehere in the bowels of the Philosophy Forum.

Perhaps you should check these things from other sources.
0 Replies
 
timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Tue 8 Aug, 2006 08:41 am
spendius wrote:
Science studies material materially.It doesn't study the immaterial at all. It doesn't accept there is any such thing as the immaterial.

Patently incorrect; energy, while a potential component of matter, by definition is immaterial; that is the functional differentiation of the two.

Quote:
I began my short career on A2K to expose the fraud of philosophy ...

With respect to that evidenced to be your own proprietary philosophy, the success of your announced endeavor is unquestionable.
0 Replies
 
real life
 
  1  
Reply Tue 8 Aug, 2006 09:32 pm
Wolf_ODonnell wrote:
Unlike you, RL, Timber is actually giving evidence to support his suggestions. The references themselves, will tell you how they came to their conclusions and the references within those books or articles will tell you how good their assumptions are.


Unfortunately, this is not the case.

Some of the links that Timber provided tend to assert the same belief, that there were two or three Isaiahs, but give no proof.

And actually several of them do not even seem to agree with the premise, they simply acknowledge that OTHERS, or MANY OTHERS, hold the view.

------------------------------------

One site referred to the 'so-called Second Isaiah', a phrase that doesn't conjure up ideas of scholarly certainty.

Quote:
These four chapters come from so-called Second Isaiah, probably written very near the end of the Babylonian Exile.
http://www.faculty.ucr.edu/~andrew/bible/readings3.htm

----------------------------

In another, for instance, reading even one sentence beyond the snippet that Timber provided we find http://www.ewtn.com/library/SCRIPTUR/ISAIAH.TXT :

Quote:
Most scholars today see three Isaiahs, for chapters 1-39,
40-55, and 56-66, describing three periods:threat of punishment,
exile, and restoration. We consider this is possible, but there
is surely no convincing proof that there were three.
emphasis mine


--------------------------------

Or http://72.14.203.104/search?q=cache:17lYkzabMs4J:www.millennialstar.org/index.php/2005/08/09/pool_of_siloam_discovered%20\%22three%20isaiahs\%22&hl=en&gl=us&ct=clnk&cd=45:

Quote:
There is a significant school of scholars, perhaps even the majority, who believe that there were two or three Isaiahs, for example -- one who wrote in 8th century BC, one in 5th century BC and another even later. I think one of the purposes of the BoM is to put to rest that argument and show that Isaiah was one prophet at one time. But some of these archeological finds show that the history of the OT is actually quite accurate -- the inscriptions on Hezekiah's tunnel exactly mark the history as claimed in the OT, for example. That was the point I was trying to make.
emphasis mine

-------------------------------

And I've already commented on Dr Morey's statement on John Ankerberg's website. Morey mocks the idea of three Isaiahs, but Timber quoted him as if he supported it.

Quote:
Seventhly, the Bible is a reliable record of biblical authorship. Matthew wrote Matthew; Mark wrote Mark; John wrote John; Luke wrote Acts; Paul wrote the Pauline epistles; Isaiah wrote Isaiah. They used to say there were two Isaiahs, then there were three Isaiahs, then there were four Isaiahs and, finally, now they say there's the "school of Isaiahs." Imagine a seminary dedicated to the glory of God where the students conspired with the faculty to produce a book in the name of someone dead for centuries and then palm it off on the gullible public and they did this with the approval of God and man, and you have liberal scholarship.
http://www.ankerberg.com/Articles/islam/2Morey-Is-the-New-Testament-Historically-Reliable.htm

Timber repeatedly referred to this quote as if it came from John Ankerberg, but if you actually read the page you can see that it did not.

---------------------

So, Wolf, I've got to say that I am just not very impressed with the links provided by Timber on this subject. Beyond asserting the same point (well, at least SOME of them do), they don't seem to have much in the way of evidence to offer.

And the fact that some of the so-called supporters actually quoted are skeptical or even downright derisive of the idea, but are put forth as advocates.........................either timber is unable to understand what he has posted, or he at least hopes you and I are unable to understand it (or maybe we'll be so impressed with the presentation of 10 supporting links that we won't bother to look at them. Surprise!).
0 Replies
 
timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Tue 8 Aug, 2006 10:09 pm
No, rl - you still don't get it, and you're just making yourself look sillier. The overwhelming consensus of objective bible sholars and historians is that Isaiah is not a single-author/single time-period work. The dissenting view is held only by a contrarian minority, comprised primarily of conservative, Protestant, Evangelical, Fundamentalist Christian biblical literalists ... though to be fair, the single author/single time view is shared by most ultra-conservative Orthodox Jews, who happen to be staunchly literalist when it comes to their Bible.

Once more, by far the greatest majority of interested, qualified parties hold the multi-author/multi-century view, a fact acknowledged and accepted even by those who hold the minority, contrarian view and dispute the majority opinion. This fact is readilly evidenced in your expanded quotes of the citations I offered; you do not counter my assertion; you condemn your own argument.

Oh, and I mentioned Ankerberg only once, and that in passing, by way of jest. I trust you're a non-smoker; the straw with which you've surrounded yourself is a real fire hazzard.
0 Replies
 
neologist
 
  1  
Reply Tue 8 Aug, 2006 10:18 pm
Which Isaiah correctly predicted the complete abandonment and desolation of Babylon?
0 Replies
 
megamanXplosion
 
  1  
Reply Tue 8 Aug, 2006 11:00 pm
real life wrote:
One site referred to the 'so-called Second Isaiah', a phrase that doesn't conjure up ideas of scholarly certainty.


It should be quite obvious that the words do not reflect certainty or uncertainty regarding the idea of multiple authors. The only uncertainty illustrated in that quotation is regarding the true name of the second author. They do not know who the second author is so they called, so-called, him the Second Isaiah. Any ideas you have conjured up are, in all probability, miscontruing the ideas conveyed on that page.

real life wrote:
We consider this is possible, but there
is surely no convincing proof that there were three.


One should give particular attention to the words "possible" and "convincing." It is quite clear that the author has reservations about accepting the idea of multiple authors (convincing). It also shows, however, that the idea of multiple authors does cast a serious shadow of doubt (possible) on the idea of a single author.

real life wrote:
And I've already commented on Dr Morey's statement on John Ankerberg's website. Morey mocks the idea of three Isaiahs, but Timber quoted him as if he supported it.


You are correct here. Morey was mocking the idea. After enduring the pain of reading his slop for an hour I was not convinced that Morey is intelligent. I decided to find out what I could about him on Wikipedia. Apparently he has lied about receiving a degree from Faith Theological Seminary, when then called his degree "forged, fake, illegal" and then mailed him a copy of a cancelled degree. After reading some more material, especially regarding his debates, he has rather consistently misrepresented the positions of the other debaters. In my honest opinion, he is just as much "off the rocker" as "Dr." Hovind (the tax evading Dr. Dino), the BASE Institute, and the Discovery Institute. Regardless of the subject being discussed, I honestly think it would be better to avoid using Morey as support or defense for a claim.

real life wrote:
So, Wolf, I've got to say that I am just not very impressed with the links provided by Timber on this subject. Beyond asserting the same point (well, at least SOME of them do), they don't seem to have much in the way of evidence to offer.


Did you read the books Timber suggested?
0 Replies
 
 

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