0
   

Abortion.What do you think about it?

 
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Sun 28 May, 2006 01:36 pm
Do you have any other evidence for this than anecdotal? Can you assert that there is more "predatory" behavior on the part of teachers now than at any time in the past? If you assert evidence to that effect, is it statistically adjusted for the school population now as compared to the period of time you are referencing? Are you prepared to factor in differences in criminal codes in the present as compared to whatever period in the past which you intend to reference?

Do you in fact intend to provide evidence? Or, are we just dealing with another example of hyperbole on your part, for which no evidence will be forthcoming?
0 Replies
 
CalamityJane
 
  1  
Reply Sun 28 May, 2006 01:38 pm
real life, you still don't understand, that abstinence is not working.
Why else would there be the highest teenage pregnancy rate in the
United States, and not in other countries where sex education is taught,
as opposed to abstinence alone.

It is utterly fruitless to discuss such issues with people who are
obviously brainwashed into thinking that abstinence is the answer.
Read my lips: It is not!!
0 Replies
 
smog
 
  1  
Reply Sun 28 May, 2006 01:41 pm
Oh now, now now, just, just wait a minute there, Janey. Just hold on.

I'm a firm believer in the mindset that humans by nature feel no sexual drive or connections of love whatsoever. None. I mean, really, get over your emotions. The only thing that could possibly cause anyone even to consider sexual activity is hearing some guy in gym shorts with a whistle talk frankly and informatively about it for a couple weeks every few months. I mean, really. C'mon. Get with the times.
0 Replies
 
CalamityJane
 
  1  
Reply Sun 28 May, 2006 01:57 pm
You're right smog. I briefly forgot that the United States is the most
advanced country there is. No comparison at all to a third world mentality
when it comes to sex education and abstinence. What was I thinking? Sex needs to be oppressed, yeah!
0 Replies
 
smog
 
  1  
Reply Sun 28 May, 2006 02:02 pm
Exactly! Now you're getting it!

Man, you're so hot when you're oppressed ...

I mean ... uhh ... I respect my parents too much to be attracted to anyone. Sorry, but we just won't have a future together.
0 Replies
 
real life
 
  1  
Reply Sun 28 May, 2006 02:07 pm
CalamityJane wrote:
real life, you still don't understand, that abstinence is not working.
Why else would there be the highest teenage pregnancy rate in the
United States, and not in other countries where sex education is taught,
as opposed to abstinence alone.

It is utterly fruitless to discuss such issues with people who are
obviously brainwashed into thinking that abstinence is the answer.
Read my lips: It is not!!


Hi Calamity,

Hmmm, so you say abstinence doesn't work, eh?

Now this is a trick question, so be careful how you answer it:

How many girls who completely abstain from sexual activity get pregnant each year?
0 Replies
 
CalamityJane
 
  1  
Reply Sun 28 May, 2006 02:08 pm
Yeah, I know smog. Just put your blinkers on, and you'll be fine until
the day you get married. Then you'll get shiners Wink
0 Replies
 
CalamityJane
 
  1  
Reply Sun 28 May, 2006 02:13 pm
real life wrote:

Hi Calamity,

Hmmm, so you say abstinence doesn't work, eh?

Now this is a trick question, so be careful how you answer it:

How many girls who completely abstain from sexual activity get pregnant each year?


You're asking the wrong question, real life. You should ask: How many
girls practice abstinence? And the answer will be provided via statistics
of teenage pregnancies and STD's. It's all very clear, real life - not to
you of course.
0 Replies
 
smog
 
  1  
Reply Sun 28 May, 2006 02:15 pm
real life wrote:
Hmmm, so you say abstinence doesn't work, eh?

I believe that was her short-hand for "teaching in schools sexual educational programs focused entirely (or almost entirely) around promoting abstinence while not teaching about any of the other factors of sexual activity or useful things to know in the event that the students in question do not strictly adhere to an idealized view of complete abstinence". As you can see, it made common sense for her to use such short-hand; that was a lot extra to type!

Oh, but I can provide another equation in this case, too, if I must.
0 Replies
 
real life
 
  1  
Reply Sun 28 May, 2006 02:19 pm
CalamityJane wrote:
real life wrote:

Hi Calamity,

Hmmm, so you say abstinence doesn't work, eh?

Now this is a trick question, so be careful how you answer it:

How many girls who completely abstain from sexual activity get pregnant each year?


You're asking the wrong question, real life. You should ask: How many
girls practice abstinence? And the answer will be provided via statistics
of teenage pregnancies and STD's. It's all very clear, real life - not to
you of course.


Are girls more likely to practice abstinence if they are taught to do so, or if they are not?

The 'here's some condoms and some pills; here's how not to abstain and get by with it' approach is an abject failure. Admit it.
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Reply Sun 28 May, 2006 02:23 pm
real life wrote:
nimh wrote:
Thats a horrifying story, Set. Jesus.


Yes it is. Horrifying indeed.

Abortion is often injurious and occasionally fatal to the mother. Legalizing it hasn't eliminated that either.


Abortionist Involved in Woman's Death Awaits Word on Medical License
http://www.cnsnews.com/ViewCulture.asp?Page=%5C%5CCulture%5C%5Carchive%5C%5C200306%5C%5CCUL20030630a.html

DOCTOR'S LICENSE REVOKED FOR BOTCHED ABORTION
http://www.lifesite.net/ldn/2003/may/03050707.html

Tiller Feared Abortion Would Kill Patient, But Did It Anyway http://www.operationrescue.org/?p=204

Botched abortion kills both mother & baby
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=46490

Alabama Abortion Mill Closed By State After Botched Abortion
http://www.earnedmedia.org/or0519.htm

Abortionists Butcher More Than Babies
http://www.christiangallery.com/botched.html

Abortionist Remains Licensed Despite Botched Abortion
http://www.nrlc.org/news/2003/NRL04/abortionist_remains_licensed_des.htm

Fr. Pavone praises courageous victim of botched "abortion"
http://www.priestsforlife.org/pressreleases/05-09-01momills.htm


I'll wager many abortion supporters on this forum haven't the guts nor the intellectual honesty to click all of these links and read the stories in their entirety.

And there are many more. These stories are easy to find.

Are you seriously positing the argument that there is no substantial difference in the number of women who end up dead or seriously ill through botched operations when abortion is legal and practiced in bona fide hospitals and clinics, or when they are done secretly in back alleys?
0 Replies
 
Chai
 
  1  
Reply Sun 28 May, 2006 02:23 pm
Even if your scenerio on the last page was true....what are you saying?

That it's the predetory teachers teaching sex education?

Back in the dinosaur days, I can remember taking a class in high school called "love sex and marriage"

the woman who taught it had 10 or 11 kids of her own, 4 of which were in high school while I was there. God, her son Tommy was in that self same class with me....what a hoot.

Her favorite thing to say at the beginning of the semester was "this class is called love, sex and marriage....not necessarily in that order."

I don't remember ever being particularly aroused by her or any other teacher who stood at the front of the classroom with a pointer showing us a drawing of a scrotum.

Question thrown to the crowd....Do any of you remember being taught about sex and get all hot and bothered?

I had school girl crushes on a couple of my high school teachers....doing the old "drive by their house" bit.....they never taught any sex ed class at my school.


So that's the deal, huh....The teachers that want to get in the pants of students volunteer to teach sex ed.

facinating.
0 Replies
 
smog
 
  1  
Reply Sun 28 May, 2006 02:27 pm
real life wrote:
The 'here's some condoms and some pills; here's how not to abstain and get by with it' approach is an abject failure. Admit it.

Wow, you need to get a clue.

(That sounds strangely familiar to me, for some reason...)

You really don't know how humans function, do you? (I'm not asking this as a sarcastic question; I'm honestly concerned.)
0 Replies
 
CalamityJane
 
  1  
Reply Sun 28 May, 2006 02:51 pm
real life wrote:
Are girls more likely to practice abstinence if they are taught to do so, or if they are not?

The 'here's some condoms and some pills; here's how not to abstain and get by with it' approach is an abject failure. Admit it.


real life, you're still evading the real question here, which is: Do they
really abstain? The answer is: NO, they don't!

In addition to that, I don't consider it as a failure to have premarital sex,
actually, I promote it. Why should a woman buy the cat in the hat, so to speak. I would want to know if I am sexually compatible with my partner prior to marriage. I teach the same philosophy to my daughter, by the way.
I never would want her to be married to some guy who is incapable of
attending to her needs in every which way.
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Reply Sun 28 May, 2006 02:52 pm
real life wrote:
Do you understand the concept?

How can you say 'it doesn't work' and hold out as an example a situation where it wasn't used?

How 'bout teaching your kid 'don't be sexually involved til you are married' ? [..]

Are you able to tell your kid 'No' ?

Oohkay.

So here's a trick question for you:

How large a percentage of those who were taught abstinence, not just as an additional possibility, but as The Only Way, actually do end up waiting with sex before marriage?

How many have sex before marriage anyway?

And how likely are they to then get pregnant as well? In comparison with those who were taught about contraception as well as abstinence?

Here's what someone who does favour sex education wrote:

Quote:
According to a Harvard study, half of all teens who take any sort of virginity pledge have broken it less than a year later. 88 percent end up having sex before marriage anyway, and [..] only 2.7 percent of respondents in an online sex survey had waited until marriage to lose their virginity (48.9 percent lost their virginity to a school boyfriend or girlfriend). [..] In fact, more respondents were victims of rape or incest (4.1 percent) than who waited until marriage to have sex.

He doesnt provide a link - but do you have data that would prove him wrong?

Here's another set of clues on that..

- Statistics on the percentage of unmarried mothers state by state. The 10 states with the highest percentage unmarried mothers include such pro-life bulwarks as Louisiana, Mississippi, Georgia and South Carolina - and only two "blue states".

- State-by-state statistics on teenage pregancies (that includes both those that end in birth and those that end in abortion) are in this post of Fishin's, who unwittingly reinforced my point. The top 10 here includes Mississippi, Texas, Georgia, North-Carolina and Arkansas - and only 1 blue state.

It looks like the "liberal" approach to sex ed is a lot more effective on preventing teenage pregnancies and unwed motherhood than the abstinence-focused approach more commonly practiced in red states.
0 Replies
 
smog
 
  1  
Reply Sun 28 May, 2006 03:01 pm
Dammit, nimh, you know how much I don't trust real facts!

More conjecture! More speculation! More, I say!
0 Replies
 
dyslexia
 
  1  
Reply Sun 28 May, 2006 03:05 pm
If there were a lot more abortions, there would be a lot less need for abortions.
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Sun 28 May, 2006 03:31 pm
CJ wrote-

Quote:
spendius, get with the program. No one is promoting abortion. What
most people object to is the pro life approach to dictate women what
they should do with their own body. People are pro choice, meaning
it is the woman's choice to do whatever is necessary for her life.
You of all people, should not be included to tell another woman what
to do.


I never said any such thing. There's nothing wrong with having no intellectual pretensions. It's quite normal. You are free to think and act as you wish. But anybody who agrees with abortion has no intellectual pretensions whatsoever. That's just a statement of fact. It has nothing to do with my telling anybody, least of all a woman, what to do.
0 Replies
 
Chumly
 
  1  
Reply Sun 28 May, 2006 04:10 pm
This from my thread Purity Balls
Quote:
There are these things. These unholy events called "Purity Balls" and you should probably fall to your knees right this minute and thank a merciful and lubricious and happily polyamorous God that you do not know what they are and that you have access right this minute to vast quantities of wine to deflect their nasty karmic arrows because, you know, oh my God. But hey, free country.

Purity Balls. No, not some sort of newfangled spherical chastity device to be inserted using vacuum tubes and pulleys, but rather fancy creepy dress-up rituals taking place in towns like Colorado Springs and Tucson and Zoloft Jesusville, in which Christian dads rent a bad tux while their daughters, mostly teenagers but many as young as 6 or 7, get all dolled up in gowns from JCPenny and they all drive out to the airport Marriott and prepare to, well, lose their minds.

It begins. At some point the daughter stands up, her pale arms wrapped around her daddy, and reads aloud a formal pledge that she will remain forever pure and virginal and sex-free until she is handed over, by her dad (who is actually called the "high priest" of the home), like some sort of sad hymenic gift, to her husband, who will receive her like the sanitized and overprotected and libidinously inept servant she so very much is. Praise!

Would that I were making this up.

The dad -- er, high priest -- in turn, stands up and reads his pledge, one stating that he will work to protect his daughter's virginal purity that he has so carefully and wickedly drilled into her since birth, since she was knee-high to a disturbing dogma, that he will protect her chastity and oversee it and help enforce its boundaries, which might or might not involve great amounts of rage and confusion and secret stashes of cheap scotch, although his pledge claims it's with honor and integrity and lots of bewildering Godspeak. Which, in many households, is essentially the same thing.

It's true. Purity Balls are happening, right now. And yes, you have heard this all before. Particularly from the conservative Right, especially from America's rigid and pale fundamentalist "core."

Premarital sex is evil. Female sexuality must be, as ever, contained, repressed, shoved deep down lest it tempt men to sin like gleeful pagans licking ice cream from the pierced nipples of the devil. Girls do not know how to handle their own genitalia and therefore must be taught -- by their fathers, no less -- how to dilute their sexual power in order to attract a sexually unqualified, God-fearing husband. You know, same as it ever was.

Very well. Let us now trace the path of imminent cultural destruction: Virgin girl has zero experience with the joys of her own body, with orgasm, with men, with sex toys or shower heads or good gynecological gizmongery. She then marries a man who will very likely have not the slightest clue (as he has had the same dreadful sexual miseducation as our fair virgin) as to what to do with a woman's body, who will, by most all accounts, be unable to tell an erogenous zone from an elbow, a clitoris from a belly button.

VoilĂ , the standard recipe for emotional, physical and spiritual catastrophe, for roughly 17 years of vague marital misery capped off by divorce and much therapy and four unhappy children and the profound and aching need located somewhere deep beneath the pelvic bone to try something, anything new and different and sexually liberating.

Let's just say it outright: The superiority of virginity myth, it is a massive, underreported disaster. It is a ridiculous and exhausting misconception that must be eradicated like a cancer. Perhaps French philosopher Voltaire said it best, nearly 300 years ago: "It is one of the great superstitions of the human mind to have imagined that virginity could be a virtue." So true.

Which is another way of asking, Don't we have it exactly backward? Shouldn't one's overall happiness -- physical, marital or otherwise -- be directly equated with exceptional amounts of sexual training and education and awareness? Is such positively libidinous education not a recipe for health and well-being and long-term marital satisfaction? You already know the answer.

Look, the plague of sexual incompetence plagues our land like a plague. It infects our schools, our popular culture, our presidential administration. The right endorses wanton sexual stupidity (and all ensuing miseries, drug addictions, divorces, stresses, gun fetishes, online porn obsessions) through failed abstinence programs, STD misinformation, refusal to support quality birth control and the relentless repetition of lies about sin and depravity and a shocking ignorance of the transformative spiritual power of sex. Purity Balls? Nothing but a sad celebration of that exact ignorance.

No wonder over half of all teens who take any sort of virginity pledge end up breaking the ridiculous vow within a year (says a new Harvard study), and fully 88 percent end up having sex before marriage anyway. What's more, such silly pledges only result in more oral and anal sex among teens who try, vainly, to adhere. They also marry younger, have fewer sexual partners (read: less skill) and yet have exactly the same rate of STDs as kids who are smart enough to avoid such pointless pledges in the first place.

Would that we had a new agenda, a sexually informed education system that truly empowered teens, that taught open-minded respect for bodies and flesh, pleasure and joy and physical/spiritual awareness. Sure, include STDs and appropriate birth-control information, but not as a deterrent, not as some sort of nasty weapon of fear. Rather, arm your virgin daughters and inept sons with slick and giddy reverence for the joys of the flesh, for its potential to transform and ease tension and make you realize all is not so wrong and sinful and hateful with the world.

Would we not be utterly transformed? Would we not finally be free of the sneering, churlish mentality that somehow thinks virgins are dumb, immaculate prizes to be won? Let's just say it: There is no sacredness in the virgin. There is only the fear, were she to be educated and empowered and really let loose, of what she could become.

http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/gate/archive/2006/05/12/notes051206.DTL
0 Replies
 
flushd
 
  1  
Reply Sun 28 May, 2006 04:55 pm
I wonder if they realized how funny and sexual "Purity Balls" sounds.

Oh lord, no! It is my dirty, unholy mind, right?! Laughing

I think it's so funny(also sad) how it all works out. Nimh provided good info.

My personal experience: those in my hometown who were raised strict Mennonite. Weren't 'allowed' to receive a full sex ed. Taught: homosexuality is wrong, sex before marriage is wrong (Didn't you know that oral and anal sex aren't really sex? You're still a virgin unless it can get you pregnant).
What happened to these fine young men and women?
They got married early to partners chosen and sanctified by their families.
They had kids early.
They have grown fat, old for their ages. Divorces filed already! To the great disappointment and dishonour of their high parents.

Or they went away to bible camp and screwed like animals the first one they could get their hands on. Unplanned pregnancy! Single mothers! And yes, abortion!

Watch your children or witches like me will seduce and contaminate 'em!

heheee. I feel better now. Razz
0 Replies
 
 

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