Abortion.What do you think about it?

real life wrote:

So your rationale for not addressing the issue is that it is 'complicated' and 'bewildering'.

On the contrary, I am eager to discuss the legal ramifications of considering a fetus as a "person" under the fourteenth amendment, and I trust that you are too.

Really? Why the change?

All we've heard previously is that you do not care if the unborn is a living human being or not.

Do you now agree with the Supreme Court that the personhood of the unborn is the issue which could justify banning abortion?

What is the point of your further questions if an innocent living human being can be exterminated for being inconvenient?

joe-

My questions were mostly rhetorical.

The reason I don't expect an answer is that your consistent position (if it can be called a position ) is 'I don't care if the unborn is a living human being or not'.

Since you brush aside addressing the central issue of the abortion question, your bunny trails are just diversions.

Its terrible that a law had to brought in to protect failed abortions due to the heartlessness of doctors, is this what the human race is coming too? I worked in a slaughter house when in my teens and the animals where treated with more dignity than this.

Quote:

Nurses at Christ Hospital in Illinois, for example, testified that numerous babies were born alive and then left to die, sometimes in soiled utility closets, including infants with non-fatal disabilities as old as 23 weeks' gestation.

BDV wrote:

Its terrible that a law had to brought in to protect failed abortions due to the heartlessness of doctors, is this what the human race is coming too? I worked in a slaughter house when in my teens and the animals where treated with more dignity than this.

Quote:

Nurses at Christ Hospital in Illinois, for example, testified that numerous babies were born alive and then left to die, sometimes in soiled utility closets, including infants with non-fatal disabilities as old as 23 weeks' gestation.

a 23 week old infant may not have "terminal" disabilities, but they usually end up requiring a trach, having to be tube fed and severe lung dysfunctions. and these don't "go away." a child born at 23 weeks will not have much of a "life" as i see it. i know i would rather die than be confined to a bed or chair, requiring several machines to keep me alive (and i mean "alive" in the strictest of biological senses).

BDV wrote:

Its terrible that a law had to brought in to protect failed abortions due to the heartlessness of doctors, is this what the human race is coming too? I worked in a slaughter house when in my teens and the animals where treated with more dignity than this.

Quote:

Nurses at Christ Hospital in Illinois, for example, testified that numerous babies were born alive and then left to die, sometimes in soiled utility closets, including infants with non-fatal disabilities as old as 23 weeks' gestation.

a 23 week old infant may not have "terminal" disabilities, but they usually end up requiring a trach, having to be tube fed and severe lung dysfunctions. and these don't "go away." a child born at 23 weeks will not have much of a "life" as i see it. i know i would rather die than be confined to a bed or chair, requiring several machines to keep me alive (and i mean "alive" in the strictest of biological senses).

22 week babies


Nationwide, most 22 week babies are given hospice care. Very few 22 week babies have survived. Our estimate of the chance of a 22 week baby surviving with intensive care, 10%, really is just an estimate, because we have not yet succeeded in sending a 22 week baby home alive here despite several attempts. Most of those 22 week babies died after the brain was badly injured by severe bleeding into the brain and intensive care was withdrawn.


Before we begin the intensive care of a 22 week baby, we want to be as sure as possible that the baby's parents are fully aware of the high odds against the survival of such a baby. Also, little is known about the outcomes of such babies, except to guess that the risk of handicaps is higher than it is at 23 and 24 weeks.


Survival at 23 weeks


Nationwide, many 23 week babies are given hospice care. However, we have given intensive care to most, but certainly not all, 23 week babies born here since 1990. About 50% of 23 week babies given intensive care here survive. About half of the deaths have followed withdrawal of intensive care after severe bleeding into the brain.


An individual baby's chance of surviving may be much different from that 50% overall figure, however. These individual differences are mostly due to four issues:


1. the time into that week (a baby barely 23 weeks is less likely to do well than a baby almost 24 weeks),

2. the baby's gender (girls tend to do better than boys),

3. multiple pregnancy (singletons tend to do better than individual babies from multiple pregnancies), and

4. whether there was time before birth to give the steroid (betamethasone, also called Celestone) shots to the mother (which helps the baby's chance of surviving and avoiding severe brain bleeding).


Depending on these factors, we might estimate an individual baby's chances for survival to be anywhere from 25% to 75%.

USAFHokie80 wrote:

BDV wrote:

Its terrible that a law had to brought in to protect failed abortions due to the heartlessness of doctors, is this what the human race is coming too? I worked in a slaughter house when in my teens and the animals where treated with more dignity than this.

Quote:

Nurses at Christ Hospital in Illinois, for example, testified that numerous babies were born alive and then left to die, sometimes in soiled utility closets, including infants with non-fatal disabilities as old as 23 weeks' gestation.

a 23 week old infant may not have "terminal" disabilities, but they usually end up requiring a trach, having to be tube fed and severe lung dysfunctions. and these don't "go away." a child born at 23 weeks will not have much of a "life" as i see it. i know i would rather die than be confined to a bed or chair, requiring several machines to keep me alive (and i mean "alive" in the strictest of biological senses).

I appreciate your input.

Do you think that your feeling that you yourself may not want to live if you needed this type of medical care should also mean that no one else should be allowed to live if they need this type of medical care?

Would you, (against their will or not knowing their will), pull the plug on someone else who needed this type of care? Would you automatically assume that they would feel the same feelings that you do?

Do you think that some folks would rather have some chance to live than none at all?

Aren't there medical conditions that were at one time severely limiting and now are much less so? If we had simply killed off those folks before advanced care was able to make their lives better, would that have been the right decision?

If we are gonna kill off those who need advanced care, what is the point of developing the advanced care and treatments?

Quote:

22 week babies


Nationwide, most 22 week babies are given hospice care. Very few 22 week babies have survived. Our estimate of the chance of a 22 week baby surviving with intensive care, 10%, really is just an estimate, because we have not yet succeeded in sending a 22 week baby home alive here despite several attempts. Most of those 22 week babies died after the brain was badly injured by severe bleeding into the brain and intensive care was withdrawn.


Before we begin the intensive care of a 22 week baby, we want to be as sure as possible that the baby's parents are fully aware of the high odds against the survival of such a baby. Also, little is known about the outcomes of such babies, except to guess that the risk of handicaps is higher than it is at 23 and 24 weeks.


Survival at 23 weeks


Nationwide, many 23 week babies are given hospice care. However, we have given intensive care to most, but certainly not all, 23 week babies born here since 1990. About 50% of 23 week babies given intensive care here survive. About half of the deaths have followed withdrawal of intensive care after severe bleeding into the brain.


An individual baby's chance of surviving may be much different from that 50% overall figure, however. These individual differences are mostly due to four issues:


1. the time into that week (a baby barely 23 weeks is less likely to do well than a baby almost 24 weeks),

2. the baby's gender (girls tend to do better than boys),

3. multiple pregnancy (singletons tend to do better than individual babies from multiple pregnancies), and

4. whether there was time before birth to give the steroid (betamethasone, also called Celestone) shots to the mother (which helps the baby's chance of surviving and avoiding severe brain bleeding).


Depending on these factors, we might estimate an individual baby's chances for survival to be anywhere from 25% to 75%.

real life wrote:

USAFHokie80 wrote:

BDV wrote:

Its terrible that a law had to brought in to protect failed abortions due to the heartlessness of doctors, is this what the human race is coming too? I worked in a slaughter house when in my teens and the animals where treated with more dignity than this.

Quote:

Nurses at Christ Hospital in Illinois, for example, testified that numerous babies were born alive and then left to die, sometimes in soiled utility closets, including infants with non-fatal disabilities as old as 23 weeks' gestation.

a 23 week old infant may not have "terminal" disabilities, but they usually end up requiring a trach, having to be tube fed and severe lung dysfunctions. and these don't "go away." a child born at 23 weeks will not have much of a "life" as i see it. i know i would rather die than be confined to a bed or chair, requiring several machines to keep me alive (and i mean "alive" in the strictest of biological senses).

I appreciate your input.

Do you think that your feeling that you yourself may not want to live if you needed this type of medical care should also mean that no one else should be allowed to live if they need this type of medical care?

Would you, (against their will or not knowing their will), pull the plug on someone else who needed this type of care? Would you automatically assume that they would feel the same feelings that you do?

Do you think that some folks would rather have some chance to live than none at all?

Aren't there medical conditions that were at one time severely limiting and now are much less so? If we had simply killed off those folks before advanced care was able to make their lives better, would that have been the right decision?

If we are gonna kill off those who need advanced care, what is the point of developing the advanced care and treatments?

I'm sure some people would chose to live if they were suddenly stricken with an illness. But a 23 week old child, even on FULL life support still has an extremely high mortality rate. Many pediatricians will not resuscitate a 23 week old baby. A 23 week old will have c.p. so bad he will be immobile for his life. His brain will not be developed and his brain will bleed into the cavity. These children will never know real life any more than you would had you been born into a black box and left to live there for your "life".

I'm not advocating the "murder" of anyone. I'm only trying to put some of this stuff into perspective.

Every baby is different. I was pg with triplet boys. I gave birth to H at 21 weeks and he did not survive. I gave birth to B & D at 22 weeks and 6 days. They are now 20 months old. They stayed in the NICU for over 18 weeks. Dylan is doing great. He has caught up with a 20 month old child. Blane is really behind. He is at a 6 month old leave in most areas. I won't go into all details but the main reason is due to hearing loss and so long on oxygen & monitors. I feel for any parent that has a preemie whether they be 22 weekers or 37 weekers. Some comments do bother me, but I try to remember that all mothers have a right to worry about their babies. I know many mothers that gave birth to full term babies that have problems. All I can say is todays technology is wonderful. And the love that NICU nurses give the sick babies. Without that, my children would not be here today. So hats off to all mothers whether you had preemies or not.

But the Moms and Dads who fight for their kids to at least have a chance are the finest people in the world.

Those who have to put up with doctors who advise them to give up are the best.

put up with doctors? we go to doctors because they know better than we do about these things. if a doctor tells a parent that her child can survive but cannot lead any sort of productive life and thus recommends she abort, he's not just making it up. he's giving her this advise based on his experience with the situation and what he KNOWS to be true, not his idealogical beliefs.

The study found that eight years after their abortions, married women were 138 percent more likely to be at high risk of clinical depression compared to women who carried their unintended first pregnancies to term.

Only 1% of the abortions, 1,900 in total, were carried out under grounds that the child would be born disabled.

Recommending that the patient should be killed is not a treatment option.

What is and is not a 'productive life' is purely subjective. If I were to choose live a completely 'unproductive life' , does that mean I deserve the death penalty?

Even if a doctor afterwards says, 'we've done everything we can, nothing has worked and we've completely exhausted the limited options that we did have' , then at least he has done his best and his job now is to make the patient as comfortable as possible, etc.

Proactively putting the patient down may be fitting for horses and dogs but not for people. (At least the vet gives the dog anesthetic. Abortions are violent , brutal and painful death without it.)

It is worth noting at this juncture that people like "real life" like to trot out such horror stories out of all context. Does the member "real life" purport that 23 week old foetuses delivered live in the course of an abortion are a common phenomenon? If he asserts that, i will consider him a shameless liar.

Nurses at Christ Hospital in Illinois, for example, testified that numerous babies were born alive and then left to die, sometimes in soiled utility closets, including infants with non-fatal disabilities as old as 23 weeks' gestation.