1
   

Tony Snow and "Tar Babies"

 
 
Reply Wed 17 May, 2006 11:29 am
Quote:
CBS REPORTER: Why not declassify [the NSA's call records database]? I mean, the President did talk about the surveillance program a day after the New York Times broke that story. This would seem to affect far more people and it did sound like the President was confirming that story today when he was answering questions.

SNOW: If you go back and look through what he said, there was a reference of foreign to domestic calls. I am not going to stand up here and presume to declassify any kind of program. That is a decision the President has to make. I can't confirm or deny it. The President was not confirming or denying. Again, I would take you back to the USA Today story to give you a little context. Look at the poll that appeared the following day [...] something like 65% of the public was not troubled by it. Having said that, I don't want to hug the tar baby of trying to comment on the program... the alleged program, the existence of which I can neither confirm or deny.

I asked Judd at Think Progress about it and he agreed. TP then explains to Tony the problem with using that term:

Based on the context of the term, we believe you meant tar baby to mean: "a situation almost impossible to get out of; a problem virtually unsolvable."

But in "American lore," the expression tar baby is also a racial slur "used occasionally as a derogatory term for black people." Use of the term has resulted in people being fired.

As Random House notes, "some people suggest avoiding the use of the term in any context." Now that you are no longer at Fox News, you may want to take them up on their advice.


Link to article and video


Ok, I know the Bush apologists are going to claim that the word has another meaning from older times. But come on. 99% of the time that phrase is used now, it's used as a racial slur. The White House press secretary should know better than that. Yeah. It was used, over a hundred years ago, in another context. A context that no one you know has heard it in. Do you really want to go with that phrase, Mr. Snow?
  • Topic Stats
  • Top Replies
  • Link to this Topic
Type: Discussion • Score: 1 • Views: 2,250 • Replies: 46
No top replies

 
blueflame1
 
  1  
Reply Wed 17 May, 2006 11:48 am
source Tar Baby Outrage!
Racism and Corruption at the Redstone Arsenal
"No matter what I do from here on in, I will always be labeled as the Tar Baby Lady."

- Clara Denise West, Ph.D., Redstone Arsenal

White managers at one of the nation's most sensitive military installations routinely assault Black employees with an archaic racial epithet, undermining even the pretense of unified national resolve in the "War on Terror." At Huntsville, Alabama's Redstone Arsenal, a military and civilian culture holds sway that seems to revel in the language of unrelenting war against the humanity and dignity of African Americans.

What do they call a Black Ph.D. at Redstone? Tar Baby.
0 Replies
 
squinney
 
  1  
Reply Wed 17 May, 2006 11:56 am
The Brer Rabbit Tar Baby Story

Why would Snow bring up a story that very few of todays generations would know? I had to look it up myself, so in my 40+ years, I have never heard the phrase used.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Wed 17 May, 2006 11:59 am
The phrase 'tar baby' is quite common in terms of security programming, especially in theoretical programs; it represents a defensive program which highlights an intruder's presence, grabs on to their 'signal,' and doesn't let go.

Of course, this has nothing to do with the Snow job, so it's immaterial to this discussion.

I doubt he was trying to be racist, but hey - he did come from Fox news. Yaknow, the ones who said that we need to make 'more babies' to counter the threat of Mexican babies.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Wed 17 May, 2006 11:59 am
BUT HE'S A LIBERAL ... AND HE'S BLACK ... SO NO BIG DEAL

We picked this up from Tuesday's James Taranto's Best of the Web Today column. It seems that a columnist for the Cleveland Plain Dealer, a liberal columnist, has used a racial slur in a column about Colin Powell. Here's the relevant paragraph:

Powell rose higher than almost any black Republican by making the party faithful comfortable with his non-threatening and non-demanding presence on racial issues. Powell flamed out after his ego no longer allowed him to be an unquestioning spearchucker in Mr. Bush's war.

The columnist, Sam Fulwood, is unapologetic. He says that the language was provocative and incendiary, but not hurtful. Oh really? Let's wait until some white conservative columnist, or a talk radio host for that matter, calls Fulwood a "spearchucker," or worse, and then claims that the language was not hurtful. We'll see how soft the reaction is.

Double standard folks. Just that simple.
0 Replies
 
FreeDuck
 
  1  
Reply Wed 17 May, 2006 12:11 pm
What, so only black people chuck spears?

I also doubt he was trying to be racist. He got his point across -- he didn't want to try to address something only to have it stick to him everywhere he went. No big deal.
0 Replies
 
yitwail
 
  1  
Reply Wed 17 May, 2006 12:24 pm
apparently it is a racial slur, though i've never heard it, unlike tar baby, which is far better known. also, spearchucker was an african-american character in M*A*S*H, film & tv, so couldn't be that egregious a slur--heck, Mike Farrell must be one of the most liberal actors ever, which is saying something. and, mr. Fulwood happens to be black and is not the white house press secretary, so it's an extremely weak comparison.
0 Replies
 
DrewDad
 
  1  
Reply Wed 17 May, 2006 12:37 pm
I suspect he used the word deliberately to be inflammatory. That's how you get readers, and that's how you sell newspapers.

And from the context of Snow's gaffe one can see that he was not using the phrase "tar baby" to refer to a person. A gaffe, as I say, but hardly anything to get in a twist about.
0 Replies
 
JustanObserver
 
  1  
Reply Wed 17 May, 2006 01:27 pm
McGentrix wrote:
Double standard folks. Just that simple.


Hardly a double standard, McG. Your comparing apples to oranges.

On one hand you have the White House press secretary. On the other is some opinion piece from a Cleveland journalist.

One person is addressing the nation through a press conference. The other is giving his opinion in some piece that's running in one paper in Cleveland.

Obviously, the journalist did something stupid and unecessary. But his actions are simply not comparable to Mr. Snow. There just isn't a comparison (not in the sense that one is "worse" than another, but in the sense that its just two different circumstances).

I'm not saying Snow said "tar baby" in an attempt to cause problems. Just that such a choice of words is fairly irresponsible for the White House press secretary. He could have gotten his point across ten other ways, and they all would have been better.
0 Replies
 
blueflame1
 
  1  
Reply Wed 17 May, 2006 01:31 pm
The administration has undergone a shakeup meant to shore up the base as Bushie's approval dips below 30%. Snow is part of the shakeup. I think he's talking solidarity to that base with his tar baby remarks.
0 Replies
 
woiyo
 
  1  
Reply Wed 17 May, 2006 01:32 pm
I never heard the phrase and I thought I heard them all.

Well I guess only White people who get accused of useing such terms can be called racists.

Since I am not white or black, I get a big laugh out of you "crackers" going bonkers over words and then pinning hte phrase RACIST to the one who said it.

Must be a slow news day.
0 Replies
 
JustanObserver
 
  1  
Reply Wed 17 May, 2006 01:36 pm
woiyo wrote:
Well I guess only White people who get accused of useing such terms can be called racists.


Weak. And it looks like you missed the point to boot.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Wed 17 May, 2006 01:44 pm
I am frankly surprised. When i hear tar baby, i automatically think of Song of the South, and i've never known it to be used as a racist epithet. I don't deny that it is, i'm just pointing out that i am unfamiliar with the term in such a context. The Snopes page on Song of the South discusses in detail the reaction of the NAACP to the release of Song of the South in 1946, while stating that that organization has no current position on the film. In that Snoples article, there is not a single reference to the term tar baby as a racial eptithet, and the criticisms detailed there are that it portrays slavery in an unrealistic manner. Disney Studios broadcast the animated motion picture more than once on television prior to the Civil Rights era. The Snopes article was prompted by a question as to whether or not Disney has ever released the film on video in the United States, which it apparently has not done.

The film remains sufficiently popular, that it has it's own web site. As i said, i've never heard the term tar baby used as a racist epithet, and only know of it from the Joel Chandler Harris stories, and as a reference to an impossible situation. Our Dear Wabbit, the Cunning Coney, had a thread about tar babies, in which she was referring to people who just can't resist responding to an idiot in the threads here--i didn't see members here showing up in droves to condemn her for using the term.

On the other hand, i've never know spear-chucker to be used in any form but as a racist epithet, and if someone used that term to describe Colin Powell, he or she is a great steaming pile of doggie poop.
0 Replies
 
woiyo
 
  1  
Reply Wed 17 May, 2006 01:47 pm
JustanObserver wrote:
woiyo wrote:
Well I guess only White people who get accused of useing such terms can be called racists.


Weak. And it looks like you missed the point to boot.


There is no point, only more bullsh$t from you nitwits like you who have nothing to say.
0 Replies
 
JustanObserver
 
  1  
Reply Wed 17 May, 2006 01:52 pm
woiyo wrote:
There is no point, only more bullsh$t from you nitwits like you who have nothing to say.


Not only have you hit rock bottom, but you've started to dig. Impressive. Laughing
0 Replies
 
revel
 
  1  
Reply Wed 17 May, 2006 02:10 pm
The point is that any normal person would have known better than to utter a phrase which is also considered a racial slur on TV. I think he did know better and just wanted to create a stir regardless of insensitivity towards those he might offend. Shows a lack of character and what we can expect in the coming days.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Wed 17 May, 2006 02:19 pm
Answers-dot-com, providing this single definition, wrote:
tar baby n.

A situation or problem from which it is virtually impossible to disentangle oneself.

[After "Bre'r Rabbit and the Tar Baby," an Uncle Remus story by Joel Chandler Harris.]


It cites The American Heritage Dictionary, Fourth Edition.

It also cites the Wikipedia article on Br'er Rabbit, which also makes no mention of a racist epithet. (For some reason, this verdamt web site won't let me embed the link to the Wikipedia article, so i provide it on the next line.)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Br%27er_rabbit

Further, it mentions the novel Tar Baby by Toni Morrison, a black American author, an award-winning novelist.

The African American Literature Book Club gives the following synopsis of Miss Morrison's novel:

Quote:
Tar Baby, audacious and hypnotic, is masterful in its mingling of tones--of longing and alarm, of urbanity and a primal, mythic force in which the landscape itself becomes animate, alive with a wild, dark complicity in the fates of the people whose drama unfolds. It is a novel suffused with a tense and passionate inquiry, revealing a whole spectrum of emotions underlying the relationships between black men and women, white men and women, and black and white people.

The place is a Caribbean island. In their mansion overlooking the sea, the cultivated millionaire Valerian Street, now retired, and his pretty, younger wife, Margaret, go through rituals of living, as if in a trance. It is the black servant couple, who have been with the Streets for years--the fastidious butler, Sydney, and his strong yet remote wife--who have arranged every detail of existence to create a surface calm broken only by sudden bursts of verbal sparring between Valerian and his wife. And there is a visitor among them--a beautiful young black woman, Jadine, who is not only the servant''s dazzling niece, but the protegée and friend of the Streets themselves; Jadine, who has been educated at the Sorbonne at Valerian''s expense and is home now for a respite from her Paris world of fashion, film and art.

Through a season of untroubled ease, the lives of these five move with a ritualized grace until, one night, a ragged, starving black American street man breaks into the house. And, in a single moment, with Valerian''s perverse decision not to call for help but instead to invite the man to sit with them and eat, everything changes. Valerian moves toward a larger abdication. Margaret''s delicate and enduring deception is shattered. The butler and his wife are forced into acknowledging their illusions. And Jadine, who at first is repelled by the intruder, finds herself moving inexorably toward him--he calls himself Son; he is a kind of black man she has dreaded since childhood; uneducated, violent, contemptuous of her privilege.

As Jadine and Son come together in the loving collision they have both welcomed and feared, the novel moves outward--to the Florida backwater town Son was raised in, fled from, yet cherishes; to her sleek New York; then back to the island people and their protective and entangling legends. As the lovers strive to hold and understand each other, as they experience the awful weight of the separate worlds that have formed them--she perceiving his vision of reality and of love as inimical to her freedom, he perceiving her as the classic lure, the tar baby set out to entrap him--all the mysterious elements, all the highly charged threads of the story converge. Everything that is at risk is made clear: how the conflicts and dramas wrought by social and cultural circumstances must ultimately be played out in the realm of the heart.

Once again, Toni Morrison has given us a novel of daring, fascination, and power.


Once again, there is no mention of tar baby as a racist epithet.

Finally, at one site, i found a mention of tar baby as a racist epithet. "The Maven's Word of the Day" page for tar baby writes:

Quote:
The expression tar baby is also used occasionally as a derogatory term for black people (in the U.S. it refers to African-Americans; in New Zealand it refers to Maoris), or among blacks as a term for a particularly dark-skinned person. As a result, some people suggest avoiding the use of the term in any context.


However, this is an example of how misleading a quote can be out of context, because the entire entry for that page reads:

Quote:
Several people have written:

Quote:
I have come across the term "tar baby" recently. For example, a recent newspaper editorial mentioned the Clinton impeachment as a "tar baby" they'd have to get rid of before the 2000 elections. Another article, on a drug-policy Web site, mentioned the "medical marijuana tar baby" as an issue that the FDA had to deal with. What does the expression mean, and where does it come from?


The tar baby is a form of a character widespread in African folklore. In various folktales, gum, wax, or other sticky material is used to trap a person.

The folktale achieved currency in the United States in written form in one of Joel Chandler Harris's Uncle Remus stories, a collection of stories based on African-American folklore, narrated by the fictional Uncle Remus, a former slave. In the story "Tar-Baby," the character Brer Fox makes a doll out of tar, which he places by the road to entrap his enemy Brer Rabbit. Brer Rabbit talks to the doll, and when it doesn't answer, he hits it, and gets stuck in the tar. The more he struggles with it, the more he is entangled in it.

This story has led to the figurative use of tar baby in the sense 'an inextricable problem or situation', sometimes with the nuance 'something used to entrap a person'. Both the examples cited in the question show the use of this sense, which appears to be first used in the early twentieth century.

The expression tar baby is also used occasionally as a derogatory term for black people (in the U.S. it refers to African-Americans; in New Zealand it refers to Maoris), or among blacks as a term for a particularly dark-skinned person. As a result, some people suggest avoiding the use of the term in any context.


Taken in context, it is the last paragraph of a long entry which does not discuss it as a racist epithet, and has several references to the term in the sense of the dictionary definition i quoted above from Answers-dot-com.

I can assure you there was no such flap about the use of the term in 2000, in the instances mentioned in that article. I strongly suggest that this is an issue for partisan reasons, because certain members are gunning for the Shrub on any basis whatsoever. Personally, i abhor the policies of this administration, and consider the Shrub to be dangeroulsy incompetent. That is no reason to invent excuses to criticize, though. Dog knows he fecks things up enough that you don't need to go to such ridiculous extremes to find things to criticize.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Wed 17 May, 2006 02:26 pm
I officially declare this thread to be pure bullsh!t.
0 Replies
 
yitwail
 
  1  
Reply Wed 17 May, 2006 03:07 pm
if we're using wikipedia to determine if a term is an epithet, then tar baby is included in wikipedia's list of ethnic slurs, as is spearchucker:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ethnic_slurs#T
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Wed 17 May, 2006 03:16 pm
I wasn't using it as a basis for my response. I simply pointed out that the Answers-dot-com entry cited Wikipedia's article on Br'er Rabbit.

I still think is just a partisan cheap shot. You are, of course, entitled to think as you like.
0 Replies
 
 

Related Topics

Obama '08? - Discussion by sozobe
Let's get rid of the Electoral College - Discussion by Robert Gentel
McCain's VP: - Discussion by Cycloptichorn
The 2008 Democrat Convention - Discussion by Lash
McCain is blowing his election chances. - Discussion by McGentrix
Snowdon is a dummy - Discussion by cicerone imposter
Food Stamp Turkeys - Discussion by H2O MAN
TEA PARTY TO AMERICA: NOW WHAT?! - Discussion by farmerman
 
  1. Forums
  2. » Tony Snow and "Tar Babies"
Copyright © 2025 MadLab, LLC :: Terms of Service :: Privacy Policy :: Page generated in 0.03 seconds on 05/06/2025 at 09:03:36