Omniscience

neologist wrote:

He does not necessarily know your moral and spiritual future. Otherwise he could not offer you a choice.

Additionally, if he knew in advance all the evil that would result from the Edenic rebellion, then he would be the proximate cause of it. War and crime and sickness and death are the responsibility of God's opposer.

If that is the case, then God is not omniscient at all.

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neologist wrote:

real life wrote:
neologist wrote:
Setanta wrote:
No, of course an omniscient being would not fail to know everything. That constitutes one of the best reasons to laugh at the comic book figure of a deity described in the old testament. (quoted post altered by the addition of a single word)
Can you see how this representation of God's ability would lead to the conclusion that all of the evil and human misery we suffer existed at one time only in the mind of God?

I don't think real life sees it. How about you?

What is there specifically that you think God does not know?
He does not necessarily know your moral and spiritual future. Otherwise he could not offer you a choice.

Additionally, if he knew in advance all the evil that would result from the Edenic rebellion, then he would be the proximate cause of it. War and crime and sickness and death are the responsibility of God's opposer.

Neo, the Bible is filled with prophecies where God revealed, sometimes hundreds or thousands of years in advance, the moral and spiritual future, not only of individuals but of entire nations.

Do you not believe the prophetic scriptures?

Foreknowledge does not necessitate culpability.

God knew Israel would rebel against Him repeatedly and embrace idolatry. He commanded them not to, but knew they would anyway.

How does knowing what someone will do make Him culpable for their decision and their action?

Simple answer: it doesn't.

God gave man a truly free will. God is not responsible for my sin or yours. We are responsible for our own sin.

Knowledge and causality are not the same thing.

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Quote:

Knowledge and causality are not the same thing.

Ahhh, my dear confused religionist....
If your god had the property of omniscience, he would have known everything about his creation...past..present..and future;including all the death, war, famine, disease, and other unpleasantries.
Because he is also 'all powerful' (omnipotent) one can only conclude that he intended it to be this way before it ever came about.
An omniscient god that is also omnipotent would have to be responsible for not only the good, but the bad as well. All would have to be as intended.

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Right on, Dok. Since the word 'omniscient' is one devised by man to describe God, I eschew its use.

Real, the fact that God knew and had recorded the outcome of the lives of many, including Esau and Jacob, does not mean he applies this power in every case.

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Doktor S wrote:

Quote:

Knowledge and causality are not the same thing.

Ahhh, my dear confused religionist....
If your god had the property of omniscience, he would have known everything about his creation...past..present..and future;including all the death, war, famine, disease, and other unpleasantries.
Because he is also 'all powerful' (omnipotent) one can only conclude that he intended it to be this way before it ever came about.
An omniscient god that is also omnipotent would have to be responsible for not only the good, but the bad as well. All would have to be as intended.

Hi DS,

I think your confusion lies in the distinction between ability and requirement to use that ability.

Just because you 'can' do something, does not mean that you 'must' do it.

You, for instance, may have the ability to walk 20 miles a day. That doesn't mean that you 'must' do it just because you are able, does it?

The same is true of God. He is omnipotent. He 'can' do as He pleases in all cases. This does not mean that He 'must' do something specific (something that you think He ought to have done) simply because He has the ability to do so.

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neologist wrote:

Right on, Dok. Since the word 'omniscient' is one devised by man to describe God, I eschew its use.

Real, the fact that God knew and had recorded the outcome of the lives of many, including Esau and Jacob, does not mean he applies this power in every case.

Do you use any words not found in the Bible to describe God? Of course you do.

The case of Esau and Jacob, and many others whom God foretold their moral and spiritual future, are perfect examples of what I am talking about.

You cannot find any support in scripture for the idea that God cannot know the moral future of an individual without violating the individual's free will.

You may not understand how this can be so, but God is also not limited by our understanding of His ability.

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omniscient - total knowledge. What does that mean? Is this knowledge as in confined by the dimension of time? EG. Knowing everything of actuality and past?
This is an issue. The future is the realm of possibilities, unless one adheres to the principle of predestination. If one holds the future to be the former, then all negative aspects in the world can be explained by stating that a supreme being cannot foresee the negative consequences of the actions of freewilled humans. By the same token, such a being cannot foresee the way future humans will interpret past actions of itself.

IF predestination is implied by omniscience, however, one has to question the motives of such a being. My mother used to quote: "God's ways are misterious, and cannot be understood by mankind." I grew to loathe this remark, the last bastion of the ignorant against rational questions.
In another thread in this section of the forum, I gave forth that god may be a spectator, watching a play, knowing the end and all the actions in between, but watching to see how the actors play out their part.

Naj.

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Quote:

I think your confusion lies in the distinction between ability and requirement to use that ability.

Ahh, but omniscience means 'total knowledge of everything'. The second one iota of knowledge is omitted from his mind, he is no longer omniscient.
Whether or not his knowledge would be incomplete by choice or not really isn't relevant.
Omnipotence and omniscience differ in that omnipotence does not imply a necessity, while omniscience does.

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Doktor S wrote:

Quote:

I think your confusion lies in the distinction between ability and requirement to use that ability.

Ahh, but omniscience means 'total knowledge of everything'. The second one iota of knowledge is omitted from his mind, he is no longer omniscient.
Whether or not his knowledge would be incomplete by choice or not really isn't relevant.
Omnipotence and omniscience differ in that omnipotence does not imply a necessity, while omniscience does.

Omniscience does not imply a necessity that the omniscient one 'must' do what you think He should.

Nor that He 'must' do anything at all.

Simply because He knows what 'can' be done and even posesses the ability (omnipotence) to do it does not place any necessity upon Him to do what you think He ought to do.

He is omniscient, you are not.

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Quote:

Omniscience does not imply a necessity that the omniscient one 'must' do what you think He should.

What 'I think' isn't the point. The very definition of the word omniscient is.

Knowing isn't doing. Omniscience does not imply a necessity to do.

However, omniscient does infer a necessity to know.

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Ok RL lets deconstruct this, shall we.

Let us start with a basic question, from me, to you.

Did 'god' know every action taken by every living thing throughout the course of time, past, present, and future, prior to 'creating'?

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Doktor S wrote:

Quote:

Omniscience does not imply a necessity that the omniscient one 'must' do what you think He should.

What 'I think' isn't the point. The very definition of the word omniscient is.

Knowing isn't doing. Omniscience does not imply a necessity to do.

However, omniscient does infer a necessity to know.

We agree on this.

Your dispute would be with Neo who does NOT think God is omniscient.

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Quote:

We agree on this.

So you would agree, then, that at one time all of the events throughout history that you would label 'evil' existed at one time only in the mind of god?

If so, would you also agree that all these things were intended to come about at this time?

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Doktor S wrote:

Quote:

We agree on this.

So you would agree, then, that at one time all of the events throughout history that you would label 'evil' existed at one time only in the mind of god?

If so, would you also agree that all these things were intended to come about at this time?

Foreknowledge is not the same as causality.

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Ok, sure. Neither here nor there.
Please answer the question. It is a yes or no sorta deal, dig?

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Doktor S wrote:

Ok, sure. Neither here nor there.
Please answer the question. It is a yes or no sorta deal, dig?

It should be obvious to you that it is a no.

God's foreknowledge does not equate to Him 'intending' that evil should come about.

God bears no responsibility for your actions, for instance.

He gave you a completely free will.

You bear responsibility for your own actions.

If you do evil, God is not to blame.

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You have just invalidated gods omniscience.
Smile

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real life wrote:

Doktor S wrote:
Ok, sure. Neither here nor there.
Please answer the question. It is a yes or no sorta deal, dig?

It should be obvious to you that it is a no.

God's foreknowledge does not equate to Him 'intending' that evil should come about.

God bears no responsibility for your actions, for instance.

He gave you a completely free will.

You bear responsibility for your own actions.

If you do evil, God is not to blame.

Ah but I think if there really was a god, he would be responsible for our actions because he supposedly created us and we are his "children." Parents have to take responsibilty for the actions of their children. Anyway if god gave us a freewill we should not be punished for the actions we take...dur Twisted Evil

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Doktor S wrote:

You have just invalidated gods omniscience.

You apparently don't understand the term.

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real life wrote:

You cannot find any support in scripture for the idea that God cannot know the moral future of an individual without violating the individual's free will.

You may not understand how this can be so, but God is also not limited by our understanding of His ability.

I would find it cruel for an all powerful being to offer me choice while knowing all the time that I would fail. Why not just zap me and get it over with?

Dok has once again revealed the real flaw in the concept of necessary omniscience. If God knew/knows everything in advance then he knew the consequences of Adam and Eve's sin. All the evil and misery and human suffering that we have seen in the world would have at one time existed only in the mind of God. What an unspeakable cruelty to unleash this all on much weaker sentient creatures.

I would have no problem with declaring God to be omniscient if I could say that he applies this power selectively. The definition of the word does not seem to allow that.

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