We can create a close aproximation of an outsiders perspective through reason and logic.
It is however, just an aproximation.
Doktor S wrote:najmelliw wrote:Chumly,
You seem to claim that the existence of a god that created this world and can intervene in this world precludes the concept of Free will?
If I'm incorrect in my assumption, please say so. For all I know, a god might change everything around me all the time in an effort to let me make certain decisions. But, I am not sure. And as long as certainty regarding this phenomenon doesn't exist, I can exercise my free will.
Lets take mice in a tranparent maze in a laboratory. They have been put there by a professor, and their environment has been changed in such a way they have to walk through the maze in order to find food, the exit or both. Now, from an OUTSIDER point of view, this means the mice have no free will. They are forced to make certain decisions in order to reach a certain goal. But, from their OWN point of view, Free will still exists. Mouse A can at any given point of time decide in which direction to walk, or not to walk, or feel the walls, or sniff the air, or scratch his back or sleep... well, you get the point. So long as we are not CONSCIOUSLY certain our environment is being manipulated in order to force us to make certain decisions, free will exists for us.
What you are describing is the
illusion of freewill, which, if left unexamined, is most convincing.
Once again I have to agree with you, Dok. (Why is that?)
Of course, the fact that najmelliw has not described free will accurately does not deny its existence
xingu wrote:You like to ask difficult questions.
Thanks much for the interesting reply and yup I read the whole thing closely. I'd like at this time to just respond to the above as I can't resist a bit of immaculate timing.
"Chumly The Questioner"
Neo "The defender"
Doc "The Decider"
Other positions available upon request of the powers that be.
Thinking about it is of course a great activity, and one in which I participate with much glee, enthusiasm, but, alas, little skill.
Nevertheless: As humans, we have, at any given time, numerous possible choices and options that we can make.
Much like the labrat does.
I can go sleep. Eat. Breathe. Work. Kill. Run. I could set my house on fire.
I could apply for a job as a fireman. I could apply for the leading role in a Hollywood movie. Etcetera.
These decisions I can take and act upon, which gives me, inside of specific boundaries, free will. I cannot, for instance, Fly, since the physical restrictions of my body don't allow for that possibility. Similarily, I cannot lift a house with my own two hands, or swim laps at 400 metres below sea level. As such, my physical body restrains my mind, but, none of us think this is a delimiter for free will. It's simply a given.
Some of the choices I mentioned similarily will have a positive or negative reflection in the society I live in.
If I set fire to my house, I will probably be called insane and locked up in an asylum.
If I go and kill somebody, I will be called into trial, convicted and spent time in jail.
If I send in an application for the lead role in a major movie, people will probably ridicule me by stating I aim too high.
So some actions are socially more acceptable then others. People know this, and tend to behave as such. So Society, in itself, delimits the possibilites of Free will, not absolutely, but reasonably.
Once again, a factor we pay little heed. In order to live in our respective societies, we are forced to make certain decisions on a daily basis. Our boss pays us to work, and we need money to buy food, so we work.
Most of us dont kill or maim or torture people, because we know society will respond in a negative way which is detrimental to us if compared to our current circumstances.
As such, there are many, many limiting factors on the existence of Free will. Yet, if we don't consciously think about this, we tend to ignore these circumstances. Free will can be found if the set of external circumstances which more or less force us into several models of behavior, is ignored.
Much like the rat ignores the maze.
Naj
Thinking about it is of course a great activity, and one in which I participate with much glee, enthusiasm, but, alas, little skill.
Nevertheless: As humans, we have, at any given time, numerous possible choices and options that we can make.
Much like the labrat does.
I can go sleep. Eat. Breathe. Work. Kill. Run. I could set my house on fire.
I could apply for a job as a fireman. I could apply for the leading role in a Hollywood movie. Etcetera.
These decisions I can take and act upon, which gives me, inside of specific boundaries, free will. I cannot, for instance, Fly, since the physical restrictions of my body don't allow for that possibility. Similarily, I cannot lift a house with my own two hands, or swim laps at 400 metres below sea level. As such, my physical body restrains my mind, but, none of us think this is a delimiter for free will. It's simply a given.
Some of the choices I mentioned similarily will have a positive or negative reflection in the society I live in.
If I set fire to my house, I will probably be called insane and locked up in an asylum.
If I go and kill somebody, I will be called into trial, convicted and spent time in jail.
If I send in an application for the lead role in a major movie, people will probably ridicule me by stating I aim too high.
So some actions are socially more acceptable then others. People know this, and tend to behave as such. So Society, in itself, delimits the possibilites of Free will, not absolutely, but reasonably.
Once again, a factor we pay little heed. In order to live in our respective societies, we are forced to make certain decisions on a daily basis. Our boss pays us to work, and we need money to buy food, so we work.
Most of us dont kill or maim or torture people, because we know society will respond in a negative way which is detrimental to us if compared to our current circumstances.
As such, there are many, many limiting factors on the existence of Free will. Yet, if we don't consciously think about this, we tend to ignore these circumstances. Free will can be found if the set of external circumstances which more or less force us into several models of behavior, is ignored.
Much like the rat ignores the maze.
Naj
Would anyone care to define free will? Perhaps free will is subjective. It may be different people have different ideas about what free will is.
Does a person born in Saudi Arabia have more, same or less free will as someone born in America or Europe?
Is free will directly related to the amount of freedom the person lives under?
Would a person born in America into a narrow-minded conservative religious family have less free will then one born into a secular open-minded one?
The Decider and The Questioner don't mind this one: "the partial freedom of the agent, in acts of conscious choice, from the determining compulsion of heredity, environment and circumstance"?
http://www.willdurant.com/glossary.htm
Sorry for the double post btw. My connection played up earlier, and I wasnt sure whether the post had come through.
Cool avatar najmelliw. What do you think Neo meant by "Defender - In."?
Thanks
I have noidea what he meant by Defender - In, apart from obviously referring to his new job description given by you.
That explains Defender, but as far as In is concerned... *grin*
I have figured out Neo's super secret heavy metal meaning!!
"Defender - In-A-Gadda-Da-Vida"
