If god is a perfect being....

Mr. Apisa... Or, Frank Smile

I for one think that the murderous, vindictive, barbaric (I'll let the other descriptive words slide, these are more then enough to convey a point)
God was introduced with a very good reason. By making God seem like a menacing deity, the sacrifice of his son becomes all the more noteworthy.
In that it (supposedly, I have been reared a Christian, but I no longer am one) allows men to enter heaven by way of his sacrifice.
The bible of course has been constructed by early christian theologists. They took their time deciding which books to add, and which to leave out.
Their work was fruitful, in that in medieval times all of Europe was Christian.
I ask you. If God is indeed as villanous as you describe him, how come so many people then and now believe in him and his goodness?

Xingu,
I was making a statement. I indeed compared the Hebrew God with the Greek Gods in order to make a point. I for one, believe there is a higher power out there, but I do not believe it is the Christian God, at least not by way we know him from the bible. I think 'Holy books' are an incredibly dangerous thing, and are the foremost example of exactly WHY the pen is mightier then the sword.
I don't believe in the greek Gods, or in the Hebrew God, but I won't make any claims regarding their supposed existence. Not believing in something is not equal to claiming it doesn't exist, at least, not to me.

Naj

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I for one, believe there is a higher power out there, but I do not believe it is the Christian God, at least not by way we know him from the bible. I think 'Holy books' are an incredibly dangerous thing, and are the foremost example of exactly WHY the pen is mightier then the sword.

Ditto

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najmelliw wrote:

Mr. Apisa... Or, Frank

Honestly...Frank will be okay!

Quote:

I for one think that the murderous, vindictive, barbaric (I'll let the other descriptive words slide, these are more then enough to convey a point)
God was introduced with a very good reason. By making God seem like a menacing deity, the sacrifice of his son becomes all the more noteworthy.

"The sacrifice of his son"...is the most barbaric aspect of the god's barbarism.

In effect, this pathetic excuse for a god said: "Damn near everything you humans do offends me...but I will forgive you for being such defective bits of creation if you will first torture and kill my son!"

How in the world does anyone find solace in that? Just how much fear of the unknown and the gods does one have to have in order to make that disgusting scenario palatable?

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In that it (supposedly, I have been reared a Christian, but I no longer am one) allows men to enter heaven by way of his sacrifice.
The bible of course has been constructed by early christian theologists. They took their time deciding which books to add, and which to leave out.
Their work was fruitful, in that in medieval times all of Europe was Christian.

Actually the cartoon god...and the books describing the cartoon god...predate Jesus and his superstitious followers by dozens of centuries.

The god we are discussing, I needn't remind you, is the god Jesus worshipped.

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I ask you. If God is indeed as villanous as you describe him, how come so many people then and now believe in him and his goodness?

For the same reason so many people in the streets of Baghdad were talking about how good and loveable Saddam Hussein was before we toppled him.

They are frighted out of their wits by the god...and if the god were pissing on them, they would be talking about the warmth of the stream!

Thank you for asking.

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I really think this whole 'seeing only the goodness in the god of the Bible' comes down to this need a massive proportion of the population have for explaining our origins. It may be a specific type of this need, because of course, quite a number of people are choosing science to further develop our ideas of origin.

Nevertheless, I can look at myself as we all can and think about our origins as being our parents, if someone wants to take this a step further and ascribe God to the universe then this parent-child dynamic comes into play. The reason I think this is important is because it seems like sometimes, we fail, so easily to see the bad in those we care for, to get specific with parents a lot of people rationalise their actions or put a spin on them, to justify those actions with reference to themselves in some way. For instance, oh I deserved it, it was for my benefit or it was harsh but fair etc. Further more, people go into complete denial about the actions of those they are so close to all the time, the need for any connection trumps the need for a good connection maybe. Fear is a factor for many of course but I think, especially over time, it can go way beyond that.

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Ashers, this implies most Christians have a son/daughter to father relation with God? It's interesting, but I'm not entirely sure. Besides, not everybody has such a relation with the people they are close to. Often, it's exactly the people one is close too that bear the heaviest burden of scrutiny and consequently disregard.

Frank, sacrifice was a very common act in those days. Once again, this is not something extremely barbaric from just one god, it was a widely establsihed system at the time. Besides, the prediction of Jesus stems from the moment God punishes Adam and Eve. There had not really been all that many sins before that time, I think.

The books detailing the God of the Old Testament predate the ones in the New Testament. Naturally so, since most of the books of the Old Testament were known by the Hebrews in Jesus' days.
So Jesus talked about the God of the Old Testament, as his father.
Mind you, he is not nearly as disparaging as you are about him Smile

Comparing god with Saddam Hussain is a futile action. The fear of him, or any dictator, is very real, in so far that disobediance means death. If God worked in that way, by his very own laws, many, if not all, would have been dead by now.

Naj.

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najmelliw wrote:

Frank, sacrifice was a very common act in those days.

Could be! :wink:

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Once again, this is not something extremely barbaric from just one god, it was a widely establsihed system at the time.

It was...and is...BARBARIC...no matter how many invented gods used it.

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Besides, the prediction of Jesus stems from the moment God punishes Adam and Eve. There had not really been all that many sins before that time, I think.

This is a joke, right????

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The books detailing the God of the Old Testament predate the ones in the New Testament. Naturally so, since most of the books of the Old Testament were known by the Hebrews in Jesus' days.
So Jesus talked about the God of the Old Testament, as his father.
Mind you, he is not nearly as disparaging as you are about him

No...I suspect he was as afraid of the god as most of that god's present day followers are.

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Comparing god with Saddam Hussain is a futile action.

Re-read what I said.

In any case, I would not compare Saddam Hussein to the god of the Bible. Saddam Hussein was a polite, reasonable, pussycat compared with that god.

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The fear of him, or any dictator, is very real, in so far that disobediance means death. If God worked in that way, by his very own laws, many, if not all, would have been dead by now.

Naj.

Not if the god is a work of fiction....right?

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Frank apisa wrote :
This is a joke, right?

Naj quotes :
Genesis 3 : 15
And I will put enmity
between you and the woman,
and between your offspring and hers;
he will crush your head,
and you will strike his heel."

The he in 'he will crush your head' has always been taught to me as being Jesus.

As for the barbarism of the act of sacrifice. Yes. It is a barbaricc act. On so far that such a thing is unimaginable in our present day society. But in those days, the act, while uncommon, was by no means unheard of. Just another way of pleasing a hard to please deity.

Especially in the society of today, people know that unbelievers are not killed on the spot. Many of those, like you, are quite open about their own believes. So why should those people that believe in God be afraid of him?

Naj.

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Naj, sure, sure, I could never make that claim universally. From my own experiences with the religiously inclined I really feel there is something to it though. Something I would say of course is that, as with so many things in life, no two people ever do something for exactly the same reasons. The unique experiences of life that we all have, the very personal way in which we all interact with things around us leads to what can range from quite drastically different views to merely subtle. My point is simply that as I see it, a form of parent-child dynamic can/often does exist with any one persons connection to this God figure. Of course maybe some people are being drawn to religion for the very reason that they have no such relationship in life or that the relationships they do have are painful and un-loving, there are so many possibilities.

The other thing I would say with regard to scrutiny, or at least looking at it from a different angle maybe, would be that I can well imagine people being drawn to religions for those, in many cases, strict, rigid sets of rules that create boundaries to live in the first place. These boundaries offer security and safety, in fact, it's maybe not even about the boundaries themselves since we have so many already but about the responsibility/duty to follow through with them if you're of X/Y/Z denomination. Like children following instruction we so often seem to look for someone, anyone, to lead by example in some fashion, I don't know what that is really. Some people are excited by freedom, others are overwhelmed by it.

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najmelliw wrote:

Frank apisa wrote :
This is a joke, right?

Naj quotes :
Genesis 3 : 15
And I will put enmity
between you and the woman,
and between your offspring and hers;
he will crush your head,
and you will strike his heel."

The he in 'he will crush your head' has always been taught to me as being Jesus.

As for the barbarism of the act of sacrifice. Yes. It is a barbaricc act. On so far that such a thing is unimaginable in our present day society. But in those days, the act, while uncommon, was by no means unheard of. Just another way of pleasing a hard to please deity.

Especially in the society of today, people know that unbelievers are not killed on the spot. Many of those, like you, are quite open about their own believes. So why should those people that believe in God be afraid of him?

Naj.

C'mon, Naj....stay focused!

When I wrote the words, "This is a joke, right?"...

...it was in response to your comment:

Quote:

Besides, the prediction of Jesus stems from the moment God punishes Adam and Eve. There had not really been all that many sins before that time, I think.

Look at the posting up above...and you will see that my comment follows my quote of that comment of yours...and obviously, it applies to that comment.

I repeat....you are joking there, right??????????????????

I really do not understand your point in the rest of your commentary, but as to your question, "So why should those people that believe in God be afraid of him? "...

...my response is: If you are talking about the god described in the Bible, how could any sane person not be in abject terror of that pathetic excuse for a god?

Anyone who tells me that they "believe in GOD"...and that they "believe" the god described in the Bible (the god Jesus worshipped) is THAT GOD...

...and who then tells me that they "love" the god and are not afraid of it...

...are, in my opinion, either insane...or lying.

I suspect mostly that they are lying....not necessarily to me, but to themselves.

I suspect they are terrified of the god.

And for damned good reason.

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In here the danger of the bible becomes most apparent.
Laws and customs used in earlier times, the times when the respective bible books were written, differ from ours.
And differ a lot as well. This needs to be taken into account, and your comments seem to imply you don't. correct me if I'm wrong.

It's hard to argue with your point of view, since it's hard to refute the logic behind it. But you need yo consider the following as well:

a) Literal or metaphorical interpretations of the bible, both Old and New Testament. You quite obviously take things literally, but there is a large group of people who seek for the hidden meaning behind the words. This, though, is often more dangerous in my opinion, but it needs to be factored in, since it makes people interpret biblical events differently.
b) The above mentioned time and culture bridge.
c) The fact that not all people who believe have access to the bible, or lack certain necessary skills (literacy for example) to read it on their own.
d) Even in todays society, there are many different cultures. Whereas the First World countries of Western Europe, and Northen America often have Christianity as a semi-official religion, there are many countries where such is not the case. Those people might indeed find comfort in a God that promises vengeance and wrath to all who dare to strike down those who believe in him.
e) The mentality of people. Many people believe in a benevolent god because they WANT to believe in one, and simply refuse to see his 'seedier' side.

Regards,
Naj

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Good stuff Frank.

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If god is a perfect being....

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