Naj and miG, I agree. Paul's emphasis on faith as opposed to good works (and reason), is the worst shortcoming of Christianity, totally inconsistent with the message of the Evangel. The criterion of faith permits christians to live unchristian lives.
For more on Paul vs. Jesus you may want to read
this.
miG - The reason people keep believing in a God is of course not definable. Since each person has his/her own reasons to believe. One reason could be the way people look at science. First off, science doesn't provide all the answers (yet, perhaps), and so there is room for a god.
Faith in itself is a powerful emotion (just ask any doctor about the placebo effect). By trusting in a God who watches over us and loves us, people feel protected and cared for, which in turn may make hardships more bearable. A final reason is that science itself has it's unpleasant facets. Power struggles, jealousy, questionable ethics. Some would probably prefer to believe in a supreme being with impeccable morals and ethics.
JL, in the old testament the laws given by God state that any person should honor and treat all others as (s)he would him/herself. But the idea is disturbing. The murderers hanging on the corsses besides Jesus were forgiven once they repented their sins. Such examples may lead people astray, convinced that they can rectify their sins on their deathbed and gain entrance to heaven.
Xingu, interesting.. .will read through if I have more time.
Naj, I like GB Shaw's caveat: Do not treat others as you would have them treat you; their tastes may be different.
Very true... But isn't it also the case that people with the same taste tend to gravitate towards each other?
Xingu, I find that the following statement from your link (thanks, btw) is very consistent with the teachings of Mahayana Buddhism (sans "final judgement):
In his LAST public teaching, Matt. 25:31-45, Jesus describes the final judgment as being based solely and entirely on behavioral responses to internalized compassion. And Jesus makes it very clear that those who DO express universal compassion in behavioral action WILL BE SAVED, and those who do not will NOT be saved. Period. There is no other qualification.
The Bodhisattva of Mahayana Buddhism who lives a life of compassion IS already saved. The compassion he expresses in his social actions reflects his liberation from egoism. It reflects his awakening from the delusion of separation from all that is non-ego, the realization of his unity with all humans and other sentient beings.
I am comfortable with the interpretation that Jesus' "final judgement" is consistent with Buddhism's non-teleological realization that every moment is its own fulfillment (as opposed to something leading to a final end).
I have to agree with you. I find very little similarity between Jesus and the Christian religion being practiced today. I think those who scream JESUS the loudest are the furthest from him.
I think so. Jesus was no Christian, nor was he the "christ" role that Paul made for him. He was simply Jesus the teacher of love and compassion, and a life without resentment, greed, and vindictiveness.
JLNobody wrote:Naj, I like GB Shaw's caveat: Do not treat others as you would have them treat you; their tastes may be different.
That is an illogical statement. Treating others as YOU would have them treat you has no bearing on what THEIR tastes may be.
I commented to a fundamentalist baptist minister that I thought his son was a good man. His response shocked me. He said that it is more important that he be a GODLY man.
JLNobody wrote:It doesn't?
No, it doesn't.
You are treating others as YOU would have them treat you BY YOUR STANDARDS AND TASTES, not by theirs.
Ethmer wrote:You are treating others as YOU would have them treat you BY YOUR STANDARDS AND TASTES, not by theirs.
I can't speak for JLNobody but for me the answer is yes.
To give an example. Before I retired I had some co-workers whom I was closer to than others. Complainers and those who put down others to make themselves look good did not meet my standards and taste. I was polite to them but avoided contact with them as much as I could. That is how I treated them and that is how I would like them to treat me.
I, as most people in this world, do not treat all people equally. I discriminate. I select whom I will and will not have as friends. Standards and taste is one of the criteria I use to make that decision.
JLNobody wrote:I commented to a fundamentalist baptist minister that I thought his son was a good man. His response shocked me. He said that it is more important that he be a GODLY man.
that is rather odd...how could he try and be like a god? I guess he could cause havoc on a smaller scale
JDNobody wrote:I commented to a fundamentalist baptist minister that I thought his son was a good man. His response shocked me. He said that it is more important that he be a GODLY man.
It is his belief that matters more in this case. The theory is if you believe in Christ and follow his ways, whatever that may be, you will do no wrong. Behavior, to these types, will not save you from hell. Belief, a Pauline doctrine, is the key that will open the door to heaven. Not wanting his son to go to hell he would be more concerned about his religious beliefs than his behavior.
To people such as these hell is a very real place and they have a deathly fear of it. So they will go to extreme ends, sometimes, to ensure they will enter heaven. They can be so fearful of hell they will totally submit themselves to Christ to the point they believe they have no minds of their own. Whatever decisions they make, dreams they have or tragedies they encounter, it is all of God's doings. Their only purpose in life is to do what God commands. They are slaves.
JLNobody wrote:I commented to a fundamentalist baptist minister that I thought his son was a good man. His response shocked me. He said that it is more important that he be a GODLY man.
He's just thinking that his son's afterlife (ie forever) is more important than his life (only a short term thing). STUPID to me, but makes sense from his POV.
Ethmer, in that case you are right and GB Shaw is wrong, but still funny.
Eorl, I agree that his point of view is a stupid one.
I'm afraid trying to be a "godly man" would result in a homophobic, slavery approving, bigot with no mercy for innocent children (killed by his world flood).
Slaves vs. servants
Every so often someone says God approves of slavery. I did a search for slave, slaves and slavery at blueletterbible.com. of the Kings James bible. I got three hits and not one said anything about approval of slavery. Could it be a differnt bible interpretation?
Servants is a different story. There's a ton of stuff about servants.
Most peole disapprove of slavery because it applies abuse. The bible often refers to godly men as servants of God.
Some people have difficulty finding things so prominent on Google.
Slavery in the Bible
Except for murder, slavery has got to be one of the most immoral things a person can do. Yet slavery is rampant throughout the Bible in both the Old and New Testaments. The Bible clearly approves of slavery in many passages, and it goes so far as to tell how to obtain slaves, how hard you can beat them, and when you can have sex with the female slaves.
Many Jews and Christians will try to ignore the moral problems of slavery by saying that these slaves were actually servants or indentured servants. Many translations of the Bible use the word "servant", "bondservant", or "manservant" instead of "slave" to make the Bible seem less immoral than it really is. While many slaves may have worked as household servants, that doesn't mean that they were not slaves who were bought, sold, and treated worse than livestock.
The following passage shows that slaves are clearly property to be bought and sold like livestock.
However, you may purchase male or female slaves from among the foreigners who live among you. You may also purchase the children of such resident foreigners, including those who have been born in your land. You may treat them as your property, passing them on to your children as a permanent inheritance. You may treat your slaves like this, but the people of Israel, your relatives, must never be treated this way. (Leviticus 25:44-46 NLT)
The following passage describes how the Hebrew slaves are to be treated.
If you buy a Hebrew slave, he is to serve for only six years. Set him free in the seventh year, and he will owe you nothing for his freedom. If he was single when he became your slave and then married afterward, only he will go free in the seventh year. But if he was married before he became a slave, then his wife will be freed with him. If his master gave him a wife while he was a slave, and they had sons or daughters, then the man will be free in the seventh year, but his wife and children will still belong to his master. But the slave may plainly declare, 'I love my master, my wife, and my children. I would rather not go free.' If he does this, his master must present him before God. Then his master must take him to the door and publicly pierce his ear with an awl. After that, the slave will belong to his master forever. (Exodus 21:2-6 NLT)
Notice how they can get a male Hebrew slave to become a permanent slave by keeping his wife and children hostage until he says he wants to become a permanent slave. What kind of family values are these?
The following passage describes the sickening practice of sex slavery. How can anyone think it is moral to sell your own daughter as a sex slave?
When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she will not be freed at the end of six years as the men are. If she does not please the man who bought her, he may allow her to be bought back again. But he is not allowed to sell her to foreigners, since he is the one who broke the contract with her. And if the slave girl's owner arranges for her to marry his son, he may no longer treat her as a slave girl, but he must treat her as his daughter. If he himself marries her and then takes another wife, he may not reduce her food or clothing or fail to sleep with her as his wife. If he fails in any of these three ways, she may leave as a free woman without making any payment. (Exodus 21:7-11 NLT)
So these are the Bible family values! A man can buy as many sex slaves as he wants as long as he feeds them, clothes them, and screws them!
What does the Bible say about beating slaves? It says you can beat both male and female slaves with a rod so hard that as long as they don't die right away you are cleared of any wrong doing.
When a man strikes his male or female slave with a rod so hard that the slave dies under his hand, he shall be punished. If, however, the slave survives for a day or two, he is not to be punished, since the slave is his own property. (Exodus 21:20-21 NAB)
You would think that Jesus and the New Testament would have a different view of slavery, but slavery is still approved of in the New Testament, as the following passages show.
Slaves, obey your earthly masters with deep respect and fear. Serve them sincerely as you would serve Christ. (Ephesians 6:5 NLT)
Christians who are slaves should give their masters full respect so that the name of God and his teaching will not be shamed. If your master is a Christian, that is no excuse for being disrespectful. You should work all the harder because you are helping another believer by your efforts. Teach these truths, Timothy, and encourage everyone to obey them. (1 Timothy 6:1-2 NLT)
In the following parable, Jesus clearly approves of beating slaves even if they didn't know they were doing anything wrong.
The servant will be severely punished, for though he knew his duty, he refused to do it. "But people who are not aware that they are doing wrong will be punished only lightly. Much is required from those to whom much is given, and much more is required from those to whom much more is given." (Luke 12:47-48 NLT)
