If god is a perfect being....

cicerone imposter wrote:

God is perfect, but it's okay for him to create an imperfect universe and living things. Since he's god, he can do no wrong; it's only humans that can do wrong - and pay dearly for it; an eternity in hell.

Well if god created us and we do wrong things, that directly ties god to the wrong thing because you believe he is our creator. He made us capable of doing wrong and then punishes us with hell.... sounds pretty sick and twisted just for the simple fact that I have never once ever in my entire life felt the "presence of god" or anything else that would lead me to believe in a god other than the bull I heard at church and what my parents said.

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jin_kazama wrote:

I agree entirely with what was said except with
Quote:
Very rarely does one leave their birth religion or become atheists.

I was born into a christian family and attended church for 16 years but now I am an 18 year old atheist/agnostic. I guess I fall under the rare category

I think the fundamentalists, that is, the most extreme literalists are quite likely to become atheists and vice versa. When myths are taken literally, they are bound to, sooner or later, butt into science, and it's only the die-hard fundamentalists who reject science; the kids are more likely to throw away literal religion as absurd. It's more difficult for fundamentalists and atheists to become moderates and recognize religion as metaphorical. This is the same principle as the alcoholic and teetotaler; they can and do switch back and forth, but rarely do they become moderate drinkers.

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coluber2001 wrote:

It's more difficult for fundamentalists and atheists to become moderates and recognize religion as metaphorical. This is the same principle as the alcoholic and teetotaler; they can and do switch back and forth, but rarely do they become moderate drinkers.

That's rubbish. I used to be a teetotaler. I am now a moderate drinker. Very moderate, mind you. I only drink whenever I happen to be in a pub and only then I tend not to drink that much.

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coluber2001 wrote:

jin_kazama wrote:
I agree entirely with what was said except with
Quote:
Very rarely does one leave their birth religion or become atheists.

I was born into a christian family and attended church for 16 years but now I am an 18 year old atheist/agnostic. I guess I fall under the rare category

I think the fundamentalists, that is, the most extreme literalists are quite likely to become atheists and vice versa. When myths are taken literally, they are bound to, sooner or later, butt into science, and it's only the die-hard fundamentalists who reject science; the kids are more likely to throw away literal religion as absurd. It's more difficult for fundamentalists and atheists to become moderates and recognize religion as metaphorical. This is the same principle as the alcoholic and teetotaler; they can and do switch back and forth, but rarely do they become moderate drinkers.

I also think a lot of young people like myself feel pressure to believe what their parents believe as well as their friends in some cases. They may have reasons not to believe their religion but are afraid to voice them

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"If god is a perfect being why did he create the universe and everything in it? A perfect being would have need of nothing and want nothing because it would be complete in everyway.... it would not need our "companionship" or love. If anyone can give me a good reason why god created us please do."

Who says God is perfect or that God is a "being". God could simply be something like a Force. Perfection is an attribute of mankind. Is electricity perfect?

God isn't perfect. Perfection is a trait bestowed by man upon a "Super King" that man can't comprehend.

God is a Creative Entity, Energy or Force outside time and the universe. i perceive of God as a "Force" in Its own realm that by Its nature creates in order to gain experience and knowledge. It has no choice, it is just part of Its being.

Its minuscule fractions or particles created the universe and all that's in it. The purpose is the gaining of knowledge and experience and eventual gravitation back into the Oneness of God adding to the fullness thereof.

God exists/Is outside of the universe. Maybe God needed to create the universe in order to gain knowledge/experience that is not obtainable outside of the universal experience.

"Do we need God or does God need us?"

Consider the possibility that:

1. There is a God!

2. That this God Inspired/Created the Reality that allows for the existence of the universe(s), and the relevant "laws" necessary thereto.

3. That this God Inspired/Caused the individual Spirits that exist and that those Spirits continue the effects of Creation just as a child continues to create after its parents have created it.

4. That the Reality of existence is really in a non-physical realm.

5. That the Spirits, while in the non-physical realm, devised/caused the existence of physical reality to come about and caused it to be advanced through the principles of evolution (simply a tool). And that evolution governs the progress of both animate and inanimate things.

6. That the Spirits Created the ability for themselves to "descend" into their physical creation from the non-physical realm (Incarnation and Reincarnation).

7. That Spirits, while in the non-physical realm, are able to know the problems, hurdles and potential outcomes that are going to befall the particular entity that they are going to inhabit, prior to inhabiting it, yet choose to inhabit anyway because of their own "growth" desires/needs.

8. That the events of the physical world (death, pain, suffering and "evil") are not significant to the Reality, which is the non-physical realm, wherein our Spirit's true existence is, and therefore requires no intervention by God.

9. Spirits in the Non-physical realm may, at times, offer suggestive guidance to entities in the physical realm in order to assist them along their chosen path or purpose but such guidance is usually through inspiration (hunches) and dreams.

10. That the purpose of it all is for the experience of God and that eventually all Spirits will gravitate back into the Oneness of God.

My rationale of and for God is explained in the document at the link below which i wrote several years ago:

A Search For Truth

http://www.asearchfortruth.com/old

(If it's not an "active" link then simply copy and paste it into your browser's Address box.)

God needs us but not as creatures of worship! God needs us because we, in returning to the Oneness of God, make God Whole.

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Sounds like NDE.

Ethmer wrote:

7. That Spirits, while in the non-physical realm, are able to know the problems, hurdles and potential outcomes that are going to befall the particular entity that they are going to inhabit, prior to inhabiting it, yet choose to inhabit anyway because of their own "growth" desires/needs.

How does this explain a fetus or infant dying or being killed? What "growth" or needs are fulfilled if you spend no time here.

Ethmer wrote:

6. That the Spirits Created the ability for themselves to "descend" into their physical creation from the non-physical realm (Incarnation and Reincarnation).

Does the spirit create the ability or God? God says our spirit has a purpose. Who creates that purpose? My impression is God does, not our spirit.

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xingu wrote:

Sounds like NDE.

Ethmer wrote:
7. That Spirits, while in the non-physical realm, are able to know the problems, hurdles and potential outcomes that are going to befall the particular entity that they are going to inhabit, prior to inhabiting it, yet choose to inhabit anyway because of their own "growth" desires/needs.

How does this explain a fetus or infant dying or being killed? What "growth" or needs are fulfilled if you spend no time here.

The "growth" need for that incarnation may simply have been for that length of existence or it may have been to help fulfill the needs of the parents or siblings.

Ethmer wrote:
6. That the Spirits Created the ability for themselves to "descend" into their physical creation from the non-physical realm (Incarnation and Reincarnation).

Does the spirit create the ability or God? God says our spirit has a purpose. Who creates that purpose? My impression is God does, not our spirit.

IMHO, God created the spirits and gave them the ability to choose their own paths/goals. God established the purpose which is the eventual reunion with God.

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Sorry about the above response to xingu. i haven't learned yet how to correctly use the "quote" feature so part of my response showed as part of his quote when it should have been separate from it:

The "growth" need for that incarnation may simply have been for that length of existence or it may have been to help fulfill the needs of the parents or siblings.

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Hehe! my reason for turning to athiesm was very strange.
I was a christian, but still very interested in witchcraft, and all that type of culture. I then saw lord of the rings when it first came out, and being a young and impressionable teenager I decided to become a witch and leave god for 2 years to 'try out new things.'
That was really hard, and i couldnt stop myself believing, but gradually as i quit church and met new people who werent christians, it got easier, and i saw through all the loopholes, and became more and more disechanted with it.
then i decided witchcraft wasnt that great either (because none of my spells ever worked ever), and so i ditched religion altogether.

then my mum found out and got upset. Wink

and then she called me a heathen.
but i think shes over it now, so is dad.
and yes I am very very happy.
slight setback in november when i got dumped, but now i am very very happy. i see life as something to enjoy, not to try and trade in for a better one by depriving yourself.
you should grab life for all it has in it.

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Oh yeah, and from my experience, from christian to athiest, i figure that:
faith is just something that stops you form relaising all your religion's faults.

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The Pentacle Queen wrote:

Hehe! my reason for turning to athiesm was very strange.
I was a christian, but still very interested in witchcraft, and all that type of culture. I then saw lord of the rings when it first came out, and being a young and impressionable teenager I decided to become a witch and leave god for 2 years to 'try out new things.'

Lord of the Rings, a book written by a God-fearing Christian that would have no doubt have been opposed to witchcraft, inspired you to undertake witchcraft? That is strange.

Quote:

That was really hard, and i couldnt stop myself believing, but gradually as i quit church and met new people who werent christians, it got easier, and i saw through all the loopholes, and became more and more disenchanted with it.

Yeah, but I didn't need witchcraft to help me do that. :wink:

Quote:

then i decided witchcraft wasnt that great either (because none of my spells ever worked ever), and so i ditched religion altogether.

Firstly, witchcraft isn't really a religion.
Secondly, what did you expect? Of course none of the spells ever worked! It was witchcraft, for crying out loud!

Number of real witches that successfully casted real spells executed by church: 0.

Quote:

then my mum found out and got upset.
and then she called me a heathen.
but i think shes over it now, so is dad.
and yes I am very very happy.

Good to hear.

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Ethmer wrote:

Who says God is perfect or that God is a "being". God could simply be something like a Force. Perfection is an attribute of mankind. Is electricity perfect?

God isn't perfect. Perfection is a trait bestowed by man upon a "Super King" that man can't comprehend.

God is a Creative Entity, Energy or Force outside time and the universe. i perceive of God as a "Force" in Its own realm that by Its nature creates in order to gain experience and knowledge. It has no choice, it is just part of Its being.

If god is just some "creative being" then I don't see how christians can say god made the flood happen and kill most of his creations. It would be like a parent having children and then failing to raise some of the children in a manner that would please the parent, and then just killing the children that the parent deemed as unworthy or whatever

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Hmm...
Perfect is a term that is beyond human understanding, because it cannot be imagined. At least, not by me (although a friend of mine consistently claims he is perfect, I think he is just vain).
As such, 'God is perfect' really doesn't provide any useful information. Giving God (a being (if one believes in a god of course) that we have no clear conception of) an attribute which we cannot quite grasp.
So it's quite hard to make it the basis of an If .. then why argument.

Be that as it may, I just think God would want to observe something interesting. We are the play, and God is the spectator. And all we can hope for is that, when the show is over, he applauds our performance...

Naj

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Re: If god is a perfect being....

jin_kazama wrote:

If god is a perfect being why did he create the universe and everything in it? A perfect being would have need of nothing and want nothing because it would be complete in everyway.... it would not need our "companionship" or love. If anyone can give me a good reason why god created us please do.

''It is well-known that everyone who possesses beauty wants to both see and display his beauty; that everyone who possesses some skills desires and loves to attract attention to his skills by exhibiting and proclaiming them; he desires and loves his skill, which is a beautiful truth and meaning that has remained concealed, to be revealed and to find ardent admirers.

These fundamental rules are in force in all things according to the degree of each.

According to the testimony of the universe and the evidence of the manifestations and embroideries of the thousand and one Most Beautiful Names of the All-Glorious Self-Subsistent One, Who possesses absolute beauty, there are in every degree of each of those Names a true loveliness, a true perfection, a true beauty and a most exquisite truth. Indeed, in every degree there are endless different sorts of loveliness and innumerable beautiful truths.

Since the mirrors reflecting the sacred beauties of those Names and the tableaux displaying their beautiful embroideries and the pages setting forth their beautiful truths are all the beings of the universe, those constant and eternal Names will entirely and unceasingly renew and change the universe through their manifestations as a consequence of that sacred Divine love and due to the mystery of Self-Subsistence.

In this way they will display their endless manifestations and infinite, meaningful embroideries and books both to the witnessing gaze of the All-Glorious Self-Subsistent One, Whom they signify, and to the studying gaze of uncountable numbers of conscious creatures and creatures endowed with spirits, and will display countless tableaux out of a finite and limited thing and numerous individuals out of a single individual and multiple truths out of a single truth. ''
BSN

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''Rather than looking to its likes and opposites, the pleasure, loveliness, and beauty of a thing look to where those qualities are manifested.

For example, generosity is a fine and pleasing attribute.
The pleasure a generous person obtains from the joy and pleasure of those he has favoured is thousands of times more gratifying than the relative pleasure obtained from feeling superior to other generous people.

Also, a kind and compassionate person receives true pleasure proportionately to those towards whom he has been compassionate find ease and comfort.

For example, the pleasure a mother receives from the happiness and comfort of her children, because of her compassion, is so strong she would sacrifice her very soul for their comfort.

The pleasure of such compassion will even make a hen attack a lion in order to protect her chicks.

Thus, the true pleasure, goodness, happiness and perfection in elevated attributes do not look to peers and opposites, but to their dependants and the places they are manifested.

The beauty, therefore, of the Glorious and Perfect One's mercy, Who is Ever-Living and Self-Subsistent, Clement and Benevolent, Compassionate and Merciful, looks to those who receive His mercy.

There are endless degrees in the happiness, ease and joy of those who receive the manifestation of His mercy and compassion, and especially those who receive its endless varieties in everlasting Paradise.

We may understand that, according to the degrees of their happiness and joy, the Merciful and Compassionate One experiences exalted, pure, holy, and beautiful meanings, like fondness and love, in a manner appropriate to Him, that may be described through qualities which are proper to Him.

He possesses utterly pure and holy qualities which we may not mention because the Qur'an does not permit it, but which may be described as ?'sacred pleasure,' ?'holy love,' ?'pure joy' and ?'sacred happiness.' They are infinitely more exalted, elevated, holy, and pure than the love, joy, and happiness that we see in the universe and may perceive among creatures. If you wish to take a look at a flash of those meanings, then look through the telescope of the following comparisons.

For example, a noble-hearted and magnanimous personage laid out a fine banquet on his magnificent voyaging ship in order to feed the poor, the needy, and hungry. Then he himself watched from on deck. You can understand how pleased and happy the thankful pleasure and appreciative gratitude of the poor, hungry and needy made that generous personage; how much it gratified him.

Man is not the true owner of even the humblest repast and is merely like a distributor.

Therefore, if his joy is thus, you can draw an analogy with the sacred meanings of love and results of mercy that pertain to the Merciful and Compassionate One and which we are powerless to express.

For He causes men, jinn, and animals to journey in the seas of space, and to board the mighty earth, which is a dominical ship. Then, loading the table of the face of the earth with innumerable varieties of foods, He invites all living creatures to the feast, which is a sort of light snack or appetizer.

For besides this, He will make each of every sort of perfect delight a table laden with bounties in a permanent and everlasting realm. He will inaugurate an unending and comprehensive banquet of innumerable pleasures and subtle wonders, which will be true food for His countless and endlessly needy and yearning slaves.'' BSN

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Re: If god is a perfect being....

Quote:

''It is well-known that everyone who possesses beauty wants to both see and display his beauty

Um that is definatly not true because I know a very beautiful girl that does not want her beauty "displayed." She is very private and does not go around flaunting her looks. You made a big mistake using the word "everyone."

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yeah.. also she doesn't do anything in her life for not to get understood each other that she lives in the world..

If god is a perfect being....

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