The school question -- again

Thanks for that, DrewDad. You make a damn good point there too. I should have named this thread "the school conundrum".

Snob Hill fundraisers? You DO know who really sells the candy, right?

over here, it is the parents..

Yes roger, I do. Sadly, I do.

Interesting thread. You know I went through a version of this before moving here, and managed to find a place that is both the pedestrian neighborhood and has good schools. I'm eternally grateful, it's a tough combo to find.

One thing I wanted to get in there is that I did the exact same thing as you would do if you move when I was a kid, school-wise anyway. Moved to MN before kindergarten, went to kindergarten at one place, and then went to 1st grade at another place (and stayed at that school 'til 6th grade, then stayed with that cohort through 12th grade [for the most part] and many of 'em even went off to college with me).

It worked out really well for me; a lot of the other kids had been together in kindergarten, but first grade and up seemed to be most important in terms of that whole community/ cohort thing.

Remember that 90% of what kids learn is through incidental learning -- what they learn when they are not sitting in a classroom listening to a teacher or doing assigned activities. You, as the parent, have an outsized influence on how your child develops and learns. Incidental learning does include what happens on the playground and at recess and what's whispered behind the teacher's back and a lot of other at-school interactions, so the general culture of the school does make a difference, as Eva mentions. If there is a general culture of anti-intellectualism, or violence, or whatever, that's significant.

But if it's a basically warm and friendly place that maybe doesn't have the best test scores, I think the other factors come into play more. (The neighborhood itself, stability, etc.) I'd imagine that going to observe would help you figure out some of this stuff. The general culture of the school.

I think it also makes a difference that he'd be able to go to middle and high school at the same places no matter where he goes to elementary school, since a lot of that culture stuff takes on more importance at that level. (I.e. drugs, violence, etc.)

Sounds like a tough decision, but also a potentially exciting one if you manage to find a great place to live.

$14,000/yr.?! My God!!!

We're paying half that, and no uniforms. (It's not religious, either.) The most expensive private school in Tulsa costs less than you quoted...$11,000/yr. for middle school. And it's always substantially less for elementary. All offer some sort of financial assistance if there's a problem with tuition.

We would definitely have stayed with public schools if we'd had a quality alternative, though.

Agree wholeheartedly with DrewDad about parental expectations. But it gets increasingly difficult to overcome peer influences as the kids approach adolescence.

Excellent point about the overall culture of the school. That's something I'm trying to find out. My husban has visited it and said it seems perfectly nice. I mentioned that this school has a public pre-k. My son's school does not, so one possibility is to sign my daughter up for pre-k there as a way to get a better feel for the culture. If it's nice, we can move. If it's not nice, we stay where we are and keep looking.

Actually, you made many excellent points.

Soz always does, doesn't she!

I wouldn't depend on my husband's first impressions of the school, though. I'd look for myself. Most problems with schools aren't evident on a first visit. More importantly, I'd find out the reputation of the school from nearby after-school programs that take kids from a variety of schools, parents who have sent their kids to that school happily AND NOT...and then compare your visit there with visits to other schools.

That's a good idea. We've been doing a lot of driving around in that neighborhood. I think the next time we do, I'm going to stop one of the parents and ask them what they know about the school.

Yep, I think that's a good idea too. Ask 'em, visit it, get as much feedback on it as you can.

Good luck! Will be interested in what you find out and how this all goes.

Thanks, I will keep you posted (snort).

One thing I wanted to say too is that the high poverty doesn't always mean anything here. For instance, we have an elementary school here with 99% eligible for free lunch which is ranked 21st in the state (of over 1100 schools). Five years ago that wasn't the case, so some fruits of the city's labor are being seen.

But I'm off to continue my investigation.

Oh. I forgot one other thing.

Find out about recent faculty/administration turnover. It's important. We have schools here that have rested on their laurels for years after they've lost the staff that gave them their status. They have a good reputation, but they're going downhill all the same. Also, you don't want to choose a school with a brand new principal. You don't know what you'll be getting, because they'll be changing a lot of things. Look for stability.

I'd talk to someone at the high school. They see the kids coming in from both schools and can break out the graduation rate by feeder school and give you a feel for what to watch out for in each school.

I agree with the point that parental expectations (and involvement) go a long way towards student achievements. If the high school counselors can tell you that kids from the neighboring school do well if the parents are involved in their education then I would advocate for the neighboring school.

We live in snob hill and there have been many times when we've wished we lived in a more diverse community, on the other hand I know that the girls are getting the best education they can get. There will be advantages and disadvantages to anywhere you choose. When you're done getting info and weighing decisions you should go with your heart and your gut.

This brings to mind our decision to move from a neighboring town when K was a year away from starting kindergarten. I was surprised at how many people gave me grief for considering leaving our fabulous school district. I finally heard it once too many times and let a friend hear about it. I explained that I hadn't gone to DF schools, nor had she, my husband, her husband, or anyone else we hung out with from our community, and we were all doing just fine, thank you very much!

We came from all over, from big schools and small, rich communities and poor. We were all successful by most definitions of success and none of us had gone to these schools. Mr B and I eventually decided on a house in a village with no schools. Our kids go to the same schools as our previous neighborhood, but that wasn't the primary motivator.

Thanks for chiming in, J_B. I feel the same way that it's not necessary for my kids to attend the very best schools in order to get a good education. In fact, I can see how they could be left behind in such a school if it's not a good fit for them.

Another problem with finding info about the school is that it is brand new, with only one year of test scores to look at. It was created in a merger of two other schools, one with atrocious scores and one with pretty good scores. So it just feels like a crap shoot right now.

Freeduck, I am just done with looking for a kindergarten for my son. We were evaluating 2 schools, one of them has a good reputation in our city, good scores, good activities, big playgrounds and lots of sports. This school also is an old timer and with a well proven track record. But the student teacher ratio is pretty poor.

The second school, is relatively new. Not much of a proven track record. But it has been doing good in the relatively short time that it is around. May not be in terms of score but in terms of including activities, sports and substantial amount of playtime. Class size is very small and the personal attention kids get is quite good.

When I was walking around the first school, the kids actually surprised me. Some of them were using bad languages and many of them seemed so snobbish. I visited the second school, met the principal and I immediately knew this was the school I would like for my son.

I have rambled enough without making a point... sorry. What I was trying to get at is, even if the school does not have a good track record, does not mean, it will not pick up in the next few years. I do not give much weightage to scores because in my opinion it depends a lot on the kid and with some hard work at home, we can manage it. To me what matters is the kind of kids and teachers he would grow up with, the culture the school carries and the capability of the teaches to build values and ambition in the kids. So talk to the principal( if possible) to get an idea about the principal's vision for the school. Talk to other parents whose kids go to these school. Visit the school, look around at the kids. That will give you a fair idea.

Your son likes his current school. That is so important. My son despised going to his playschool and I know exactly why. So when searching for a kindergarten I was looking for one he would like to go.

Best wishes freeduck.

Thank you for your story, LMF. I think you've hit on the real core of the problem -- that the culture of the school means more than the test scores.

My current plan, aside from talking to local parents and school administrators and teachers, is to sign my daughter up for pre-k there. Georgia has a public pre-k program which is free for anyone, but you have to find a school or preschool that offers it. My son's school does not offer it, but this school does. That would give us some time, possibly a whole year, to find out what's really happening there. Still, I want to do some research before that happens just to make sure there aren't any serious, obvious problems there. How did you go about arranging a visit? Did you just call them up and ask to tour the school, or was there a kindergarten open house?

You can usually just contact them and ask. If they balk, that could itself be an indication. I contacted my daughter's kindergarten in like February to arrange a time to observe, they said no problem. A friend of ours has been trying to figure out where to send her daughter for kindergarten and has toured, man, 10 or so of them I think.

It really should be a "sure, when would you like to visit?" no-brainer.

I called them up and they set up a time for me. I made sure it was during school hours so that I get to see the kids going there.

Thanks, ladies. I will do that.