Intelligent Design is not creationism

real life wrote:

Odd that even though science classes in government schools are usually wall-to-wall Big Bang-Abiogenesis-Evolution, all sold in one slick package (because no mention of creation is allowed) that science test scores and competency are in the basement.

The claim is that only by teaching evolution etc will the kids learn 'the one and only True Science', but the results don't support that contention, do they?

What is odd is that the countries that aren't trying to teach ID or creationism and have fewer fundamentalist Christians are the ones with better science test scores. Perhaps there is a direct correlation there.

Teaching kids about evolution without confusing them by talking about creationism gives better science competency is the conclusion I get from it. How about you rl?

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timberlandko wrote:

rl, just to clarify here, if you would, please, am I to infer you include me among the ranks of "liberal elitists"?

What would cause you to infer such?

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parados wrote:

real life wrote:
Odd that even though science classes in government schools are usually wall-to-wall Big Bang-Abiogenesis-Evolution, all sold in one slick package (because no mention of creation is allowed) that science test scores and competency are in the basement.

The claim is that only by teaching evolution etc will the kids learn 'the one and only True Science', but the results don't support that contention, do they?

What is odd is that the countries that aren't trying to teach ID or creationism and have fewer fundamentalist Christians are the ones with better science test scores. Perhaps there is a direct correlation there.

Teaching kids about evolution without confusing them by talking about creationism gives better science competency is the conclusion I get from it. How about you rl?

Science scores in the US have been in the toilet for many years.

Can you show me a state in the US that has taught creationism for that period of time and therefore should (according to your theory) have among the lowest science test scores among the various states?

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real life wrote:

Can you show me a state in the US that has taught creationism for that period of time and therefore should (according to your theory) have among the lowest science test scores among the various states?

Better yet, let's look at an actual case: you.

You have obviously been taught creationism, and your understanding of evolution is demonstratedly non-existent. You get an "F" in evolutionary theory. Prove that cases like yours are not the standard result of creation indoctrination.

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perhaps, rl, some of the cause of US students' poor showing in science tests stems from the situation which occasioned THIS, from which I excerpt the following:

Quote:

Many public school students receive little or no exposure to the theory of evolution, the most important concept in understanding biology, says a new guidebook from the National Academy of Sciences (NAS). Teachers are reluctant to teach evolution because of pressures from special-interest groups to downplay or eliminate it as part of the science curriculum. Moreover, some are advocating that creationism be taught in public schools -- even though the Supreme Court ruled in 1987 that creationism is a religious idea that cannot be mandated in public education.

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Chumly wrote:

farmerman wrote:
Idiotic speech, like hate speech can only be shown for what it is by letting it be expressed and inspected for the double talk that it is.
Post WW II Western Europe Nazis v. Jews; the Jews would likely differ on the level of acceptable speech, and here in Canada we have hate laws and a recent shut down and fines for a skin head website.

This shows your views are not shared by all, and those who wish higher levels of censorship than you do, may do so with rationality & merit.

Measle, I am mixed, but biased towards complete freedom of speech baring the shouting of "fire" etc.

But you do have to wonder if the Nazi propaganda machine had been quelled, whether events would have turned out just the same anyway, or whether the Nazis would have had a harder time of gaining power and implementing their pogroms etc.

That someone's views are not shared by all is no argument at all, and, in fact, constitutes the argumentum ad populum fallacy, which posits that something must be true because lots of suckers believe it.

The argument about free speech which runs that it does not extend to shouting fire in a crowded theater was articulated by Mr. Justice Holmes of the United States Supreme Court, and simply posits that free speech does not extend to the incitement of criminal activity. We have hate speech in this country, certainly, and if its intent is to incite to crime, or it is concommitant with criminal activity, it becomes a violation of the law. But hate speech which is not an incitement to criminal activity is as well-protected by our Constitution as is any other form of speech--and so it should be.

FM was simply pointing out that "stupid speech," like "hate speech," will be its own worst enemy. Such a statement does not in any way merit your hysterical response, complete with a confirmation of Godwin's Law, which could not previously have been invoked in this thread.

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timberlandko wrote:

rl, just to clarify here, if you would, please, am I to infer you include me among the ranks of "liberal elitists"?

It's about time someone unmasked you.

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real life wrote:

parados wrote:
real life wrote:
Odd that even though science classes in government schools are usually wall-to-wall Big Bang-Abiogenesis-Evolution, all sold in one slick package (because no mention of creation is allowed) that science test scores and competency are in the basement.

The claim is that only by teaching evolution etc will the kids learn 'the one and only True Science', but the results don't support that contention, do they?

What is odd is that the countries that aren't trying to teach ID or creationism and have fewer fundamentalist Christians are the ones with better science test scores. Perhaps there is a direct correlation there.

Teaching kids about evolution without confusing them by talking about creationism gives better science competency is the conclusion I get from it. How about you rl?

Science scores in the US have been in the toilet for many years.

Can you show me a state in the US that has taught creationism for that period of time and therefore should (according to your theory) have among the lowest science test scores among the various states?

Your reading comprehension seems to suffer from the same problems your science skills do. The confusion is not from just school. It comes from "responsible" adults promoting non science as science. People don't just learn from school.

A simple test of the states.
Rank them according to % religious
Rank them according to % fundamentalist Christians
Rank them according to test scores for children

I hypothesis that the higher religion and the higher fundamentalist states will score lower than mere chance should say they would. There will be a correlation of some sort. The same correlation I said there was in countries.

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Setanta wrote:

timberlandko wrote:
rl, just to clarify here, if you would, please, am I to infer you include me among the ranks of "liberal elitists"?

It's about time someone unmasked you.

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parados wrote:

real life wrote:
parados wrote:
real life wrote:
Odd that even though science classes in government schools are usually wall-to-wall Big Bang-Abiogenesis-Evolution, all sold in one slick package (because no mention of creation is allowed) that science test scores and competency are in the basement.

The claim is that only by teaching evolution etc will the kids learn 'the one and only True Science', but the results don't support that contention, do they?

What is odd is that the countries that aren't trying to teach ID or creationism and have fewer fundamentalist Christians are the ones with better science test scores. Perhaps there is a direct correlation there.

Teaching kids about evolution without confusing them by talking about creationism gives better science competency is the conclusion I get from it. How about you rl?

Science scores in the US have been in the toilet for many years.

Can you show me a state in the US that has taught creationism for that period of time and therefore should (according to your theory) have among the lowest science test scores among the various states?

Your reading comprehension seems to suffer from the same problems your science skills do. The confusion is not from just school. It comes from "responsible" adults promoting non science as science. People don't just learn from school.

A simple test of the states.
Rank them according to % religious
Rank them according to % fundamentalist Christians
Rank them according to test scores for children

I hypothesis that the higher religion and the higher fundamentalist states will score lower than mere chance should say they would. There will be a correlation of some sort. The same correlation I said there was in countries.

Go ahead. I'd love to see it.

If this is to be a scientific study, you need to come up with a precise criteria for who fits the categories you have proposed: 'the religious' and the 'fundamentalist Christians' .

You should be able to verify who is and who is not in these populations.

In addition, you need to break out the scores for 'religious children' , 'fundamentalist Christian children' and 'other'.

Otherwise, your theory is just mere opinion probably based on a bias.

Note: Since most studies already indicate that children in private schools and/or home schools (both types are overwhelmingly religiously based schools) tend to score higher in all subject areas, not just science, I'll caution you that you may be in for a surprise.

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parados wrote-

Quote:

What is odd is that the countries that aren't trying to teach ID or creationism and have fewer fundamentalist Christians are the ones with better science test scores. Perhaps there is a direct correlation there.

The tests are probably skewed to fit the attitudes of examiners in those countries. They will reward those students who are most like themselves. They probably couldn't help doing so.

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real life wrote:

timberlandko wrote:
rl, just to clarify here, if you would, please, am I to infer you include me among the ranks of "liberal elitists"?

What would cause you to infer such?

I'd really like an answer to this one.

Why would you infer this based on no evidence? Is it just force of habit? A reflex?

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real life wrote:

Note: Since most studies already indicate that children in private schools and/or home schools (both types are overwhelmingly religiously based schools) tend to score higher in all subject areas, not just science, I'll caution you that you may be in for a surprise.

Which studies are those? I won't be suprised until you provide evidence of these studies.. :wink:

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rl

Quote:

Odd that even though science classes in government schools are usually wall-to-wall Big Bang-Abiogenesis-Evolution, all sold in one slick package (because no mention of creation is allowed) that science test scores and competency are in the basement.

. As a product of the Catholic parochial school environment with Jesuit leadership, I feel fortunate that Id received such an education. Evolution was THE guiding principle in biology therein.
When you speak of home/private schools v public schools, your statistical sampling basis is vacuous.
1All schools must provide for the standards and guidelines provided by the states

2Some schools fulfill these mission requirements better than others

3Parochial schools have the habit of "culling" out the nonperformers and disruptive students because they only have the products of their teaching as a commercial.

4 Im unaware of any schools in Pa where the guidelines of performance are not followed. (I suppose that a bunch of conscienscious "homeschoolers" are being taught Creationism but, when we have Science Fairs around the state (Im a regional judge) , the homeschooled are woefully behind in theory and applied sciences. As of 3 years ago the Dauphin/Lancaster/Lebanon/York county science fairs adopted a policy that they would "jury' science fair exhibits and not invite projects that were clearly Creationist or ID. (Its really an embarrassment to have to publically admit that we have jhad science fair projects about "the Flood")

Now Kansas is another story> As of yet, I believe that the re-revised Kansas standards are more in line with real science and that teachers are beginning to flex their own muscles and are telling the few remaining Fundamentalist schoolboard members to go back to their caves and meditate. The NCSE is now going around the US making evening programs at colleges and Universities exposing how the "Creation and ID Friendly" school board members of a number of states had gotten their elected seats by devious and , in the case of Dover, possibly illegal means.

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rl

Quote:

Since most studies already indicate that children in private schools and/or home schools (both types are overwhelmingly religiously based schools) tend to score higher in all subject areas, not just science, I'll caution you that you may be in for a surprise.

This may even be true, but, as I said before above, these schools do not define their own curricula. They MUST provide for the state mandated requirements(They actually substitute religious teaching in mandated free and library times).As for te parochial schools, while They may do a better job at producing scholars, they only have kids who are motivated, and they dont have to worry about the bottom performers.Those kids are usually gone and sent back to public schools
The public schools systems must, by law, teach everyone, they dont cherry pick like the parochial or private schools. When I was in Catholic school, everyone was above average, but we all learned evolution from Ehrlichs COLLEGE text. This was about the time af VAtican II. Most academic centered private schools are actually quite elitist, they have actual scholars and researchers on staff as teachers and they hold endowed chairs , so the kids are getting an even greater dose of the sciences.
SO, your entire argument is pretty much invalid and your trying to take credit for magnet schools and private /parochial schools where scholarship, not Fundamentalist teachings are contained in the mission statements.

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parados wrote:

real life wrote:

Note: Since most studies already indicate that children in private schools and/or home schools (both types are overwhelmingly religiously based schools) tend to score higher in all subject areas, not just science, I'll caution you that you may be in for a surprise.

Which studies are those? I won't be suprised until you provide evidence of these studies.. :wink:

You can start here.

http://nces.ed.gov/nationsreportcard/pdf/studies/2006459.pdf

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parados wrote-

Quote:

What is odd is that the countries that aren't trying to teach ID or creationism and have fewer fundamentalist Christians are the ones with better science test scores. Perhaps there is a direct correlation there.

Okay, let's pin this down. Is it mainly fundamentalist Christians that are creationists? Polls show that the Christian community is divided between those that believe God's creative activity is accurately described in Genesis and those that believe God created through an evolutionary process. Don't the ID critics claim they are all creationists?

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fm wrote-

Quote:

when we have Science Fairs around the state (Im a regional judge) ,

Aaaah!! A vested interest eh? A party member. No wonder the social function side of things is tip-toed round in stocking-feet.

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fm wrote-

Quote:

They actually substitute religious teaching in mandated free and library times).

And what happens then in the staff room at breaktimes when the religious teachers are mixing with the evolutionists? Is it anything like on here?
One would be inclined to expect that it would be if one was focussed on real life rather than abstract notions in which people are puppets of the imagination.

A classroom is a small field of force contained within other,larger fields of force and itself containing smaller fields of force which,when not in the classroom,are interacting with the wider fields of force in an intimate way.A classroom is not a retort in which a recipe is cooking although I can see how convenient it is,under energy preservation laws,to think it so.

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spendi

Quote:

And what happens then in the staff room at breaktimes when the religious teachers are mixing with the evolutionists? Is it anything like on here?
One would be inclined to expect that it would be if one was focussed on real life rather than abstract notions in which people are puppets of the imagination.

I believe that the loons have all migrated to Canada for the summer. You can still catch up if you hurry.

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Intelligent Design is not creationism

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