Intelligent Design is not creationism

That's hilarious--although one cannot but note your supreme familiarity with the sidelines.

In fact, a very common contention of members at this site is that the consequence of saddling science education with religious doctrine would be to so enervate scientific knowledge in the general population as to seriously endanger the potential future prosperity of any nation ignoring the problem. I have no doubt that you will have a flurry of specious comment--i equally do not doubt that it will be as needlessly prolix and as typically irrelevant as all of your "contributions."

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Setanta wrote-

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In fact, a very common contention of members at this site is that the consequence of saddling science education with religious doctrine would be to so enervate scientific knowledge in the general population as to seriously endanger the potential future prosperity of any nation ignoring the problem.

And that's supposed to be evidence that the future prosperity etc is actually going to be endangered.

It's the usual ploy of liberals to create the danger and then offer to lead us all to safety and expect us to meekly follow.

What a load of bollix.

And,of course,it implies than ANY educating media will have the same effect and thus should also be eradicated which could only be done by burning down the libraries and the movie archives and the music catalouges and the art galleries and the churches and even preventing discussion. After all,if the future prosperity is at stake anything can be justified.

Big Brother is here.Good job he's not in power eh?

Still-I'll allow that slippery ambiguities provide an escape chute as does pretending that kids only learn in science classes.

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Still-I'll allow that slippery ambiguities provide an escape chute as does pretending that kids only learn in science classes.

Kids learn about science in science class.
Actual science should be ALL that is taught in such classes. ID isn't science.
Kid's certainly learn things outside of science classes. But teaching what is better categorized as mythology under the banner of science is rather despicable and wholly disingenuous in my eyes.

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all but a small klavern of true believers feel the same as you dok.

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Sometimes you wouldn't know it by reading A2K!

Although the optimist in me wants to believe you.

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I mean, to those with little understanding of what constitutes 'science' and what can not, which seems to be a very large sampling of the population if not the majority....
These attempts by well written charlatans such as tele, who sound reasonable enough, to shoehorn obvious (to those that know) 'not-science' into the definition of science in my opinion are causing real damage. These should be squashed the same as any other form of misleading propaganda. Squashed right along with their sources.

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The contention that ID is not creationism is interesting but to me, wholly meaningless, as even stripped of the supernatural ID remains pseudoscience and propaganda

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We differ on that. I feel that they should be allowed to spout off and let the audience sort out the peanuts from the crap.
My only dog in this fight has been the strict requirements for science curriculum. I know that IDers and Creationists count on "muscling" their worldviews in public arenas and tent shows. They mostly spout off to the faithful who couldnt tell science from cannoli baking.
However, so we dont go too far in stomping their rights of free speech, no matter how idiotic, all we should do is to make sure where their perceived First Amendment rights CANNOT be exercised. This really pisses em off.

Idiotic speech, like hate speech can only be shown for what it is by letting it be expressed and inspected for the double talk that it is.

When I read the stuff that Teleo spouts, knowing that hes doing his preaching to influence a wider audience of malleable minds, as of yet unaffected by science education, Im amazed that his arguments conveniently dismiss the "joined at the hip" history of Creationism and the birth of the "latest version" of an ID movement that just happened to coincide with the Louisiana Supreme Court Decision. The IDers really have to do better.

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The IDers really have to do better.

You must have more faith in joe average than I do (which is none)
Yes, the specious positions and arguments for same don't hold under real scrutiny, but how many really possess the facilities to render said scrutiny?
I would say the average person doesn't.

I have been seriously questioning the value of democracy lately...

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Odd that even though science classes in government schools are usually wall-to-wall Big Bang-Abiogenesis-Evolution, all sold in one slick package (because no mention of creation is allowed) that science test scores and competency are in the basement.

The claim is that only by teaching evolution etc will the kids learn 'the one and only True Science', but the results don't support that contention, do they?

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Doktor S wrote:

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The IDers really have to do better.

You must have more faith in joe average than I do (which is none)
Yes, the specious positions and arguments for same don't hold under real scrutiny, but how many really possess the facilities to render said scrutiny?
I would say the average person doesn't.

I have been seriously questioning the value of democracy lately...

Yeah, I don't think it will surprise too many people to hear this elitist garbage come from you.

'I know what's best for you' and 'the public is stupid' are common themes heard from liberal elitists.

The Founders of this country held the opposite view.

They worked as hard as they could to put as much power in the hands of the people as possible, and as little as possible into the hands of a few.

You have previously spouted your disdain for the Constitution and the principles that this nation was founded upon.

There are countries where your view would be quite welcome.......that is unless you happened to be in the political minority because those same countries take a dim view of dissent, while in America we encourage and affirm it. Kinda funny how your distaste for dissent comes back to bite you.

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farmerman wrote:

Idiotic speech, like hate speech can only be shown for what it is by letting it be expressed and inspected for the double talk that it is.

Post WW II Western Europe Nazis v. Jews; the Jews would likely differ on the level of acceptable speech, and here in Canada we have hate laws and a recent shut down and fines for a skin head website.

This shows your views are not shared by all, and those who wish higher levels of censorship than you do, may do so with rationality & merit.

Measle, I am mixed, but biased towards complete freedom of speech baring the shouting of "fire" etc.

But you do have to wonder if the Nazi propaganda machine had been quelled, whether events would have turned out just the same anyway, or whether the Nazis would have had a harder time of gaining power and implementing their pogroms etc.

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real life wrote:

Odd that even though science classes in government schools are usually wall-to-wall Big Bang-Abiogenesis-Evolution, all sold in one slick package (because no mention of creation is allowed) that science test scores and competency are in the basement.

The claim is that only by teaching evolution etc will the kids learn 'the one and only True Science', but the results don't support that contention, do they?

This is great, let's add pseudo science & relgion in science class and we'll have smarter kids Laughing

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rl, just to clarify here, if you would, please, am I to infer you include me among the ranks of "liberal elitists"?

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real life wrote:

Yeah, I don't think it will surprise too many people to hear this elitist garbage come from you.

As opposed to your particular brand of disingenuous garbage?

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'I know what's best for you' and 'the public is stupid' are common themes heard from liberal elitists.

Hmm good thing I'm not liberal then. Assumptions make an ass out of you and..well..you.

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The Founders of this country held the opposite view.

They worked as hard as they could to put as much power in the hands of the people as possible, and as little as possible into the hands of a few.

You have previously spouted your disdain for the Constitution and the principles that this nation was founded upon.

Correct. I have also pointed out I am not a citizen of your nation, and of that I am quite glad. As such, what your founders thought mean exactly nothing to me. We have been over this before.

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There are countries where your view would be quite welcome.......

Such as the one I live in.

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that is unless you happened to be in the political minority because those same countries take a dim view of dissent, while in America we encourage and affirm it. Kinda funny how your distaste for dissent comes back to bite you.

My distaste is for mob rule.

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real life wrote:

The claim is that only by teaching evolution etc will the kids learn 'the one and only True Science', but the results don't support that contention, do they?

If a more apt theory than evolution were to be created, one that fits the evidence, can make and validate predictions using the scientific method...then you would have a contention
ID/creation creatainly don't fit the bill, and in no way can be considered science.
It seems more like your contention is with science itself. Would you prefer children be indoctrinatate in your faith than learn actual science?

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Anyone who disagrees with some posters is labeled "liberal" and often "elitist," regardless of context.

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Gosh, if the majority of the UK's population are elitist in knowledge, then we must be a very well educated society.

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real life,

I am astonished that you revived this thread. You should have allowed it to go away. Smile

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MASOCHISTIC TENDENCIES....

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Intelligent Design is not creationism

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