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Intelligent Design is not creationism

 
 
Eorl
 
  1  
Reply Thu 6 Apr, 2006 11:15 pm
That book he posted is all supposedly science, and then in the "Special Appendix" they point out that God the Creator is clearly behind everything.
0 Replies
 
Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Fri 7 Apr, 2006 03:35 am
Teleologist wrote:
1. Evolution was front-loaded such that its unfolding was channeled.

2. Evolution was designed such that it could acquire new information over time.

3. Permutations of 1 and 2.

That's an interesting perspective. Say, which refuteable predictions do ID advocates derive from it, and how have they withstood experimental testing?

Teleologist wrote:
Does the educational system have an obligation to make sure that school children don't find out that scientists are investigating these possibilities?

No. On the other hand, they also have no obligation to waste their science curriculum on a theory that has never withstood any meaningful amount of scientific scrutiny. If and when that changes, you're welcome to come back and ask again. But in the meantime, the burden of proof is on ID, not on the schools. You have to make a persuasive case to the scientific community before you can make it to school boards.
0 Replies
 
Chumly
 
  1  
Reply Fri 7 Apr, 2006 03:43 am
bm
0 Replies
 
Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Fri 7 Apr, 2006 03:48 am
Thomas wrote:
[The schools] also have no obligation to waste their science curriculum on a theory that has never withstood any meaningful amount of scientific scrutiny. If and when that changes, you're welcome to come back and ask again.

Clarification: "If and when that changes" means "if and when ID has withstood any meaningful amount of scientific scrutiny." It does not mean "if and when schools have an obligation to waste their science curriculum on a theory that has never withstood any meaningful amount of scientific scrutiny". I meant to edit my post, but Chumly bookmarked before I could.
0 Replies
 
Lightwizard
 
  1  
Reply Fri 7 Apr, 2006 07:22 am
Glad you clarified that, Thomas, and I wholeheartedly agree.
0 Replies
 
Diest TKO
 
  1  
Reply Fri 7 Apr, 2006 08:05 am
Lightwizard wrote:
Like a "gateway drug." These people are on a drug but it doesn't have to be administered orally or through a syringe. It seems to be something like dopamine. Only it's spelled dopeamine.


dope-of -mine! Too good!
0 Replies
 
Teleologist
 
  1  
Reply Fri 7 Apr, 2006 11:19 am
Teleologist wrote:
Quote:
Does the educational system have an obligation to make sure that school children don't find out that scientists are investigating these possibilities?



Thomas wrote:
Quote:
No.


Then we are in agreement. The rest of your reply to me was irrelevant as I didn't say anything about teaching ID in science class.
0 Replies
 
gungasnake
 
  1  
Reply Fri 7 Apr, 2006 11:40 am
The word "evolution" implies slow change. The fossil record contradicts that.

The only thing which is really wrong with the creationistist view is the idea that all the animals which ever lived on Earth were created at one time.

Evidence indicates that life as we know it was largely if not totally created at the time of the Cambrian explosion and that there have been episodes of change since then, but that the episodes of change were sudden and driven by information and intelligence.

In particular, the sudden evolution theses of Richard Goldschmidt, Immanuel Velikovsky, and Steve Gould are all provably unworkable.
0 Replies
 
Pauligirl
 
  1  
Reply Fri 7 Apr, 2006 09:39 pm
Re: Intelligent Design is not creationism
Teleologist wrote:
Intelligent design is often equated with creationism. They are not the same, not even close. First, ID has no conection to the Genesis account of creation and it doesn't invoke the supernatural. Second, ID isn't anti-evolution.



They are the same.
P

From an article by Robert T. Pennock after the Dover trial.....
(March 6, 2006)
http://www.stnews.org/Commentary-2688.htm

Quote:

.............A long paper trail made these conclusions easy. It made no difference that they avoided using the "G-word" to name the agent, speaking instead of the world as designed by a master intellect or a transcendent, immaterial intelligence. Appealing to such transparent word substitutions is, as I put it in my testimony, even less persuasive than if the person who leaked a CIA agent's identity defended himself by protesting that "I never said Valerie Plame Wilson. I only said Ambassador Wilson's wife." The court also got to read the Discovery Institute's internal Wedge document, which omitted the linguistic fig leaf and stated their governing goal of replacing materialistic explanations with "the theistic understanding that nature and human beings are created by God."

Besides the Wedge document, there were many other smoking guns. The ID textbook Of Pandas and People was shown to be a minimally reworded creation science text. Following the 1987 Supreme Court ruling, a quick edit of the manuscript draft switched out the words "creationism" and "creation science" with "intelligent design theory," and "creation scientists" with "intelligent design proponents" but left definitions unchanged. ID, the judge concluded "is creationism re-labeled." Nor does simply omitting the words "intelligent design" disguise the concept.
0 Replies
 
timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Fri 7 Apr, 2006 11:30 pm
Teleologist wrote:
Intelligent design is often equated with creationism. They are not the same, not even close. First, ID has no conection to the Genesis account of creation and it doesn't invoke the supernatural. Second, ID isn't anti-evolution.


Intelligent Design is not Creationism?

Lets examine that statement not in light of what Robert Pennock said at Dover, but rather in light of what Inteligent Design's originators actually said of Intelligent Design:


Quote:
The Wedge Strategy


THE WEDGE STRATEGY
CENTER FOR THE RENEWAL OF SCIENCE & CULTURE
INTRODUCTION

The proposition that human beings are created in the image of God is one of the bedrock principles on which Western civilization was built. Its influence can be detected in most, if not all, of the West's greatest achievements, including representative democracy, human rights, free enterprise, and progress in the arts and sciences.

Yet a little over a century ago, this cardinal idea came under wholesale attack by intellectuals drawing on the discoveries of modern science. Debunking the traditional conceptions of both God and man, thinkers such as Charles Darwin, Karl Marx, and Sigmund Freud portrayed humans not as moral and spiritual beings, but as animals or machines who inhabited a universe ruled by purely impersonal forces and whose behavior and very thoughts were dictated by the unbending forces of biology, chemistry, and environment. This materialistic conception of reality eventually infected virtually every area of our culture, from politics and economics to literature and art.

The cultural consequences of this triumph of materialism were devastating. Materialists denied the existence of objective moral standards, claiming that environment dictates our behavior and beliefs. Such moral relativism was uncritically adopted by much of the social sciences, and it still undergirds much of modern economics, political science, psychology and sociology.

Materialists also undermined personal responsibility by asserting that human thoughts and behaviors are dictated by our biology and environment. The results can be seen in modern approaches to criminal justice, product liability, and welfare. In the materialist scheme of things, everyone is a victim and no one can be held accountable for his or her actions.

Finally, materialism spawned a virulent strain of utopianism. Thinking they could engineer the perfect society through the application of scientific knowledge, materialist reformers advocated coercive government programs that falsely promised to create heaven on earth.

Discovery Institute's Center for the Renewal of Science and Culture seeks nothing less than the overthrow of materialism and its cultural legacies. Bringing together leading scholars from the natural sciences and those from the humanities and social sciences, the Center explores how new developments in biology, physics and cognitive science raise serious doubts about scientific materialism and have re-opened the case for a broadly theistic understanding of nature. The Center awards fellowships for original research, holds conferences, and briefs policymakers about the opportunities for life after materialism.

The Center is directed by Discovery Senior Fellow Dr. Stephen Meyer. An Associate Professor of Philosophy at Whitworth College, Dr. Meyer holds a Ph.D. in the History and Philosophy of Science from Cambridge University. He formerly worked as a geophysicist for the Atlantic Richfield Company.

THE WEDGE STRATEGY
Phase I.

Scientific Research, Writing & Publicity
Phase II.

Publicity & Opinion-making
Phase III.

Cultural Confrontation & Renewal
THE WEDGE PROJECTS
Phase I. Scientific Research, Writing & Publication

Individual Research Fellowship Program
Paleontology Research program (Dr. Paul Chien et al.)
Molecular Biology Research Program (Dr. Douglas Axe et al.)
Phase II. Publicity & Opinion-making

Book Publicity
Opinion-Maker Conferences
Apologetics Seminars
Teacher Training Program
Op-ed Fellow
PBS (or other TV) Co-production
Publicity Materials / Publications
Phase III. Cultural Confrontation & Renewal

Academic and Scientific Challenge Conferences
Potential Legal Action for Teacher Training
Research Fellowship Program: shift to social sciences and humanities
FIVE YEAR STRATEGIC PLAN SUMMARY
The social consequences of materialism have been devastating. As symptoms, those consequences are certainly worth treating. However, we are convinced that in order to defeat materialism, we must cut it off at its source. That source is scientific materialism. This is precisely our strategy. If we view the predominant materialistic science as a giant tree, our strategy is intended to function as a "wedge" that, while relatively small, can split the trunk when applied at its weakest points. The very beginning of this strategy, the "thin edge of the wedge," was Phillip ]ohnson's critique of Darwinism begun in 1991 in Darwinism on Trial, and continued in Reason in the Balance and Defeatng Darwinism by Opening Minds. Michael Behe's highly successful Darwin's Black Box followed Johnson's work. We are building on this momentum, broadening the wedge with a positive scientific alternative to materialistic scientific theories, which has come to be called the theory of intelligent design (ID). Design theory promises to reverse the stifling dominance of the materialist worldview, and to replace it with a science consonant with Christian and theistic convictions.

The Wedge strategy can be divided into three distinct but interdependent phases, which are roughly but not strictly chronological. We believe that, with adequate support, we can accomplish many of the objectives of Phases I and II in the next five years (1999-2003), and begin Phase III (See "Goals/ Five Year Objectives/Activities").

Phase I: Research, Writing and Publication

Phase II: Publicity and Opinion-making

Phase III: Cultural Confrontation and Renewal

Phase I is the essential component of everything that comes afterward. Without solid scholarship, research and argument, the project would be just another attempt to indoctrinate instead of persuade. A lesson we have learned from the history of science is that it is unnecessary to outnumber the opposing establishment. Scientific revolutions are usually staged by an initially small and relatively young group of scientists who are not blinded by the prevailing prejudices and who are able to do creative work at the pressure points, that is, on those critical issues upon which whole systems of thought hinge. So, in Phase I we are supporting vital witting and research at the sites most likely to crack the materialist edifice.

Phase II. The pnmary purpose of Phase II is to prepare the popular reception of our ideas. The best and truest research can languish unread and unused unless it is properly publicized. For this reason we seek to cultivate and convince influential individuals in pnnt and broadcast media, as well as think tank leaders, scientists and academics, congressional staff, talk show hosts, college and seminary presidents and faculty, future talent and potential academic allies. Because of his long tenure in politics, journalism and public policy, Discovery President Bruce Chapman brings to the project rare knowledge and acquaintance of key op-ed writers, journalists, and political leaders. This combination of scientific and scholarly expertise and media and political connections makes the Wedge unique, and also prevents it from being "merely academic." Other activities include production of a PBS documentary on intelligent design and its implications, and popular op-ed publishing. Alongside a focus on influential opinion-makers, we also seek to build up a popular base of support among our natural constituency, namely, Chnstians. We will do this primarily through apologetics seminars. We intend these to encourage and equip believers with new scientific evidence's that support the faith, as well as to "popularize" our ideas in the broader culture.

Phase III. Once our research and writing have had time to mature, and the public prepared for the reception of design theory, we will move toward direct confrontation with the advocates of materialist science through challenge conferences in significant academic settings. We will also pursue possible legal assistance in response to resistance to the integration of design theory into public school science curricula. The attention, publicity, and influence of design theory should draw scientific materialists into open debate with design theorists, and we will be ready. With an added emphasis to the social sciences and humanities, we will begin to address the specific social consequences of materialism and the Darwinist theory that supports it in the sciences.

GOALS
Governing Goals

To defeat scientific materialism and its destructive moral, cultural and political legacies.
To replace materialistic explanations with the theistic understanding that nature and hurnan beings are created by God.

Five Year Goals

To see intelligent design theory as an accepted alternative in the sciences and scientific research being done from the perspective of design theory.
To see the beginning of the influence of design theory in spheres other than natural science.
To see major new debates in education, life issues, legal and personal responsibility pushed to the front of the national agenda.
Twenty Year Goals

To see intelligent design theory as the dominant perspective in science.
To see design theory application in specific fields, including molecular biology, biochemistry, paleontology, physics and cosmology in the natural sciences, psychology, ethics, politics, theology and philosophy in the humanities; to see its innuence in the fine arts.
To see design theory permeate our religious, cultural, moral and political life.

FIVE YEAR OBJECTIVES
1. A major public debate between design theorists and Darwinists (by 2003)

2. Thirty published books on design and its cultural implications (sex, gender issues, medicine, law, and religion)

3. One hundred scientific, academic and technical articles by our fellows

4. Significant coverage in national media:

Cover story on major news magazine such as Time or Newsweek
PBS show such as Nova treating design theory fairly
Regular press coverage on developments in design theory
Favorable op-ed pieces and columns on the design movement by 3rd party media
5. Spiritual & cultural renewal:

Mainline renewal movements begin to appropriate insights from design theory, and to repudiate theologies influenced by materialism
Major Christian denomination(s) defend(s) traditional doctrine of creation & repudiate(s)
Darwinism Seminaries increasingly recognize & repudiate naturalistic presuppositions
Positive uptake in public opinion polls on issues such as sexuality, abortion and belief in God
6. Ten states begin to rectify ideological imbalance in their science curricula & include design theory


7. Scientific achievements:

An active design movement in Israel, the UK and other influential countries outside the US
Ten CRSC Fellows teaching at major universities
Two universities where design theory has become the dominant view
Design becomes a key concept in the social sciences Legal reform movements base legislative proposals on design theory
ACTVITIES
(1) Research Fellowship Program (for writing and publishing)

(2) Front line research funding at the "pressure points" (e.g., Daul Chien's Chengjiang Cambrian Fossil Find in paleontology, and Doug Axe's research laboratory in molecular biology)

(3) Teacher training

(4) Academic Conferences

(5) Opinion-maker Events & Conferences

(6) Alliance-building, recruitment of future scientists and leaders, and strategic partnerships with think tanks, social advocacy groups, educational organizations and institutions, churches, religious groups, foundations and media outlets

(7) Apologetics seminars and public speaking

(8) Op-ed and popular writing

(9) Documentaries and other media productions

(10) Academic debates

(11) Fund Raising and Development

(12) General Administrative support

THE WEDGE STRATEGY PROGRESS SUMMARY
Books

William Dembski and Paul Nelson, two CRSC Fellows, will very soon have books published by major secular university publishers, Cambridge University Press and The University of Chicago Press, respectively. (One critiques Darwinian materialism; the other offers a powerful altenative.)

Nelson's book, On Common Descent, is the seventeenth book in the prestigious University of Chicago "Evolutionary Monographs" series and the first to critique neo-Dacwinism. Dembski's book, The Design Inference, was back-ordered in June, two months prior to its release date.

These books follow hard on the heals of Michael Behe's Darwin's Black Box (The Free Press) which is now in paperback after nine print runs in hard cover. So far it has been translated into six foreign languages. The success of his book has led to other secular publishers such as McGraw Hill requesting future titles from us. This is a breakthrough.

InterVarsity will publish our large anthology, Mere Creation (based upon the Mere Creation conference) this fall, and Zondervan is publishing Maker of Heaven and Earth: Three Views of the Creation-Evolution Contoversy, edited by fellows John Mark Reynolds and J.P. Moreland.

McGraw Hill solicited an expedited proposal from Meyer, Dembski and Nelson on their book Uncommmon Descent. Finally, Discovery Fellow Ed Larson has won the Pulitzer Prize for Summer for the Gods, his retelling of the Scopes Trial, and InterVarsity has just published his co-authored attack on assisted suicide, A Different Death.

Academic Articles

Our fellows recently have been featured or published articles in major sciendfic and academic journals in The Proceedings to the National Academy of Sciences, Nature, The Scientist, The American Biology Teacher, Biochemical and Biophysical Research Communications, Biochemirtry, Philosophy and Biology, Faith & Philosophy, American Philosophical Quarterly, Rhetoric & Public Affairs, Analysis, Book & Culture, Ethics & Medicine, Zygon, Perspectives on Science and the Christian Faith, Relgious Studies, Christian Scholars' Review, The Southern Journal ofPhilosophy, and the Journal of Psychalogy and Theology. Many more such articles are now in press or awaiting review at major secular journals as a result of our first round of research fellowships. Our own journal, Origins & Design, continues to feature scholarly contribudons from CRSC Fellows and other scientists.

Television and Radio Appearances

During 1997 our fellows appeared on numerous radio programs (both Christian and secular) and five nationally televised programs, TechnoPolitics, Hardball with Chris Matthews, Inside the Law, Freedom Speaks, and Firing Line. The special edition of TechnoPolitics that we produced with PBS in November elicited such an unprecedented audience response that the producer Neil Freeman decided to air a second episode from the "out takes." His enthusiasm for our intellectual agenda helped stimulate a special edition of William F. Buckley's Firing Line, featuring Phillip Johnson and two of our fellows, Michael Behe and David Berlinski. At Ed Atsinger's invitation, Phil Johnson and Steve Meyer addressed Salem Communications' Talk Show Host conference in Dallas last November. As a result, Phil and Steve have been interviewed several times on Salem talk shows across the country. For example, in ]uly Steve Meyer and Mike Behe were interviewed for two hours on the nationally broadcast radio show ]anet Parshall's America. Canadian Public Radio (CBC) recently featured Steve Meyer on their Tapestry program. The episode, "God & the Scientists," has aired all across Canada. And in April, William Craig debated Oxford atheist Peter Atkins in Atlanta before a large audience (moderated by William F. Buckley), which was broadcast live via satellite link, local radio, and intenet "webcast."

Newspaper and Magazine Articles

The Firing Line debate generated positive press coverage for our movement in, of all places, The New York Times, as well as a column by Bill Buckley. In addition, our fellows have published recent articles & op-eds in both the secular and Christian press, including, for example, The Wall Street Journal, The New York Times, The Washington Times, National Review, Commentary, Touchstone, The Detroit News, The Boston Review, The Seattle Post-lntelligenter, Christianity Toady, Cosmic Pursuits and World. An op-ed piece by Jonathan Wells and Steve Meyer is awaiting publication in the Washington Post. Their article criticizes the National Academy of Science book Teaching about Evolution for its selective and ideological presentation of scientific evidence. Similar articles are in the works.



From The Discovery Institutes's own discussion of its
Quote:
Mission Statement ... The point of view Discovery brings to its work includes a belief in God-given reason and the permanency of human nature ...


Well, there you have it - ID-iocy's founders and chief champions in their own words. The frauds at the fore of the clearly deceitful, duplicitous ID-iot proposition that ID is other than Creationism defeat themselves, hoist on their own petard.

Any questions?
0 Replies
 
kickycan
 
  1  
Reply Sat 8 Apr, 2006 12:58 am
It is a thing of beauty when Timber pulls out the can of whoop-ass like that.

Game over.
0 Replies
 
Teleologist
 
  1  
Reply Sat 8 Apr, 2006 02:23 am
The Actual Arguments of Leading ID Proponents

An extensive look at the actual writings and arguments of those in the ID research community reveals that intelligent design is not an appeal to the supernatural, nor is it trying to "prove" the existence of God. The consensus of ID proponents is intelligent design theory does not allow one to identify the designer as natural or supernatural, because to do so would go beyond the limits of scientific inquiry.

Here are some excerpts from ID literature making it clear that ID is not an appeal to God or the supernatural:

Quote:
But what kind of intelligent agent was it? On its own, science cannot answer this question; it must leave it to religion and philosophy. (Of Pandas and People (2nd ed, 1993), pg. 7



Quote:
Today we recognize that appeals to intelligent design may be considered in science, as illustrated by current NASA search for extraterrestrial intelligence (SETI). Archaeology has pioneered the development of methods for distinguishing the effects of natural and intelligent causes. We should recognize, however, that if we go further, and conclude that the intelligence responsible for biological origins is outside the universe (supernatural) or within it, we do so without the help of science." (Of Pandas and People (2nd ed, 1993), pg. 126-127)


Quote:
The idea that life had an intelligent source is hardly unique to Christian fundamentalism. Advocates of design have included not only Christians and other religious theists, but pantheists, Greek and Enlightenment philosophers and now include many modern scientists who describe themselves as religiously agnostic. Moreover, the concept of design implies absolutely nothing about beliefs normally associated with Christian fundamentalism, such as a young earth, a global flood, or even the existence of the Christian God. All it implies is that life had an intelligent source." (Of Pandas and People (2nd ed, 1993), pg. 161



Quote:
The most important difference [between modern intelligent design theory and Paley's arguments] is that [intelligent design] is limited to design itself; I strongly emphasize that it is not an argument for the existence of a benevolent God, as Paley's was. (Michael Behe, "The Modern Intelligent Design Hypothesis," Philosophia Christi, Series 2, Vol. 3, No. 1 (2001), pg. 165



Quote:
Although intelligent design fits comfortably with a belief in God, it doesn't require it, because the scientific theory doesn't tell you who the designer is. (Michael Behe, Pittsburgh Post-Gazette, 02/08/01)



Quote:
... intelligent design is not a form of anti-evolutionism. Intelligent design does not claim that living things came together suddenly in their present form through the efforts of a supernatural creator. Intelligent design is not and never will be a doctrine of creation." (William Dembski, No Free Lunch, pg. 314


Quote:
The conclusion that something was designed can be made quite independently of knowledge of the designer. As a matter of procedure, the design must first be apprehended before there can be any further question about the designer. The inference to design can be held with all the firmness that is possible in this world, without knowing anything about the designer. (Michael Behe, Darwin's Black Box, pg. 197)



Quote:
...design theorists recognize that the nature, moral character and purposes of this intelligence lie beyond the competence of science and must be left to religion and philosophy." (William Dembski, The Design Revolution, pg. 42)



Quote:
The most obvious difference is that scientific creationism has prior religious commitments whereas intelligent design does not. ... Intelligent design ... has no prior religious commitments and interprets the data of science on generally accepted scientific principles. In particular, intelligent design does not depend on the biblical account of creation." (William Dembski, The Design Revolution, pg. 40)


Quote:
Intelligent design begins with data that scientists observe in the laboratory and nature, identifies in them patterns known to signal intelligent causes and thereby ascertains whether a phenomenon was designed. For design theorists, the conclusion of design constitutes an inference from data, not a deduction from religious authority." (William Dembski, The Design Revolution, pg. 42-43)



Quote:
ID is not an interventionist theory. Its only commitment is that the design in the world be empirically detectable. All the design could therefore have emerged through a cosmic evolutionary process that started with the Big Bang. What's more, the designer need not be a deity. It could be an extraterrestrial or a telic process inherent in the universe. ID has no doctrine of creation. At best one could argue that many of the ID proponents are religious believers in a deity, but that has no bearing on the content of the theory. (William Dembski)



Quote:
Intelligent design theory tells us nothing about the nature of the designer, and cannot determine if the designer was natural or supernatural.

Intelligent design theory begins and ends with observations of the natural world. It begins with observations of intelligent agents in the natural world, in order to quantify the sort of information they tend to emplace into their designed objects. It ends with observations as we study natural objects to determine if they contain that information which we know is a tell-tale sign that an intelligent agent played a hand in the origin of that object. True to the scientific method, throughout the entire process of testing for intelligent design, we are making observations of the observable natural world.

Science, and thus intelligent design theory, can only discover what is found in the observable realm. We cannot access the supernatural. Thus intelligent design proponents make it clear that all their theory can do is tell if a natural object bears the hallmarks of having been designed--it cannot tell you anything about the designer, much less that it was a supernatural deity. (Casey Luskin)
0 Replies
 
timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Sat 8 Apr, 2006 04:38 am
Teleologist, ol' buddy, your attempted "Actual Arguments of Leading ID Proponents" counter argument stands discreditted by decision of law. The absurd, mendacious assertions by ID-iocy's key proponents that ID-iocy is not Creationism rebadged have been held to be specious, dishonest, and contrary to established fact. In other words, lies.

I suggest you read the United States District Court opinion rendered in Kitzmiller vs Dover Area School District - Case No. 04cv2688 (Note: 139 page .pdf document)

Among other findings, it was held that both Behe's and Minnick's own testimony confirmed the religious nature of ID:
Quote:
The only apparent difference between the argument made by Paley and the argument for ID, as expressed by defense expert witnesses Behe and Minnich, is that ID's "official position" does not acknowledge that the designer is God. However, as Dr. Haught testified, anyone familiar with Western religious thought would immediately make the association that the tactically unnamed designer is God, as the description of the designer in Of Pandas and People hereinafter "Pandas") is a "master intellect," strongly suggesting a supernatural deity as opposed to any intelligent actor known to exist in the natural world. (P-11 at 85). Moreover, it is notable that both Professors Behe and Minnich admitted their personal view is that the designer is God and Professor Minnich testified that he understands many leading advocates of ID to believe the designer to be God.(21:90 (Behe); 38:36-38 (Minnich)).

p25




Of Dembski, it was found
Quote:
Dembski has written that ID is a "ground clearing operation" to allow Christianity to receive serious consideration, and "Christ is never an addendum to a scientific theory but always a completion."

p27




Pertaining to Of Pandas and People, it was found the publishers substituted the terms "Intelligent Design" and "Designer" for "Creation" and "Creator" knowingly and specifically to avoid running afoul of a 1987 Supreme Court Decision barring the teaching of Creationism.

Quote:
Pandas was written by Dean Kenyon and Percival Davis, both acknowledged creationists, and Nancy Pearcey, a Young Earth Creationist, contributed to the work. (10:102-08 (Forrest)). As Plaintiffs meticulously and effectively presented to the Court, Pandas went through many drafts, several of which were completed prior to and some after the Supreme Court's decision in Edwards, which held that the Constitution forbids teaching creationism as science. By comparing the pre and post Edwards drafts of Pandas, three astonishing points emerge: (1) the definition for creation science in early drafts is identical to the definition of ID; (2) cognates of the word creation (creationism and creationist), which appeared approximately 150 times were deliberately and systematically replaced with the phrase ID; and (3) the changes occurred shortly after the Supreme Court held that creation science is religious and cannot be taught in public school science classes in Edwards. This word substitution is telling, significant, and reveals that a purposeful change of words was effected without any corresponding change in content, which directly refutes FTE's argument that by merely disregarding the words "creation" and "creationism," FTE expressly rejected creationism in Pandas. In early pre-Edwards drafts of Pandas, the term "creation" was defined as "various forms of life that began abruptly through an intelligent agency with their distinctive features intact - fish with fins and scales, birds with feathers, beaks, and wings, etc," the very same way in which ID is defined in the subsequent published versions. (P-560 at 210; P-1 at 2-13; P-562 at 2-14, P-652 at 2-15; P-6 at 99-100; P-11 at 99-100; P-856.2.). This definition was described by many witnesses for both parties, notably including defense experts Minnich and Fuller, as "special creation" of kinds of animals, an inherently religious and creationist concept. (28:85-86 (Fuller); Minnich Dep. at 34, May 26, 2005; Trial Tr. vol. 1, Miller Test., 141-42, Sept. 26, 2005; 9:10 (Haught); Trial Tr. vol. 33, Bonsell Test., 54-56, Oct. 31, 2005). Professor Behe's assertion that this passage was merely a description of appearances in the fossil record is illogical and defies the weight of the evidence that the passage is a conclusion about how life began based upon an interpretation of the fossil record, which is reinforced by the content of drafts of Pandas. The weight of the evidence clearly demonstrates, as noted, that the systemic change from "creation" to "intelligent design" occurred sometime in 1987, after the Supreme Court's important Edwards decision. This compelling evidence strongly supports Plaintiffs' assertion that ID is creationism re-labeled.

p31-32





Now I have no reason to suspect you yourself are not a sincere, honest, honorable person. In fact, I expect you are. However, as demonstrated and established in a court of law, there can be no doubt the originators and chief champions of the proposition you endorse are proven frauds, damned by their own testimony and by the documented record of their writings. ID-iocy is Creationism, and those who persist to claim otherwise are of but 2 camps; either proven frauds or unwitting dupes.


Those interested may access all court documents pertaining to Kitzmiller vs Dover, including the original complaint, all depositions, all filings and motions, all introduced evidence, and each day's testimony, via .pdf download links at Tis Site
0 Replies
 
Wolf ODonnell
 
  1  
Reply Sat 8 Apr, 2006 06:44 am
What is this post I see here?

Intelligent Design is Creationism? I don't remember making that remark. However, I remember saying that it is as equally non-scientific as Creationism, which might be an exaggeration of sorts, but it is clear that ID is not science.
0 Replies
 
real life
 
  1  
Reply Sat 8 Apr, 2006 07:43 am
To pretend that all IDers believe that same thing as do staff members of one organization, (the Discovery Institute), or even know who they are, is completely foundationless.

There are many people who believe that an Intelligent Design is evident in the structure and functioning of the Universe.

Of this group, many of these are also evolutionists.

A fairly large percentage of these are theistic evolutionists, but definitely not all of them.

The idea that IDers are a monolithic group, all thinking the same thing and under the guidance of a group which has only existed for a few years (when many people have believed in the concept of Intelligent Design all of their lifetime, as their parents and grandparents did before them) is pure nonsense.
0 Replies
 
Wolf ODonnell
 
  1  
Reply Sat 8 Apr, 2006 08:26 am
real life wrote:
A fairly large percentage of these are theistic evolutionists, but definitely not all of them.


A fairly large percentage, you say? Maybe not, but certainly a considerable number and if you were to ask any of them whether they believe in ID, they'd say no. Why? Well, ID is an insult not only to Evolution but also to the concept of God.
0 Replies
 
timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Sat 8 Apr, 2006 08:52 am
To pretend the push behind injecting ID-iocy into the public school science curriculum is anything other than a transparent, deceitful, unconstitutional attempt to inflict by subterfuge not only a religionist, but a particular, and by its actions in such regard a particularly mendacious, religionist stranglehold on The Nation, is unconscionable. At root, such a cause, promoting religion - any religion - by legislative fiat is not just condusive to but indistinguishable from the fundamentalist theocratic fascism from which derives jihadism.

Regardless its constituents or supporters, regardles division, dispute, or diversity among proponents of the ID-iot Movement, the movement is an affront to, an assault upon, freedom and ultimately civilization itself.
0 Replies
 
Teleologist
 
  1  
Reply Sat 8 Apr, 2006 10:27 am
Quote:
Pertaining to Of Pandas and People, it was found the publishers substituted the terms "Intelligent Design" and "Designer" for "Creation" and "Creator" knowingly and specifically to avoid running afoul of a 1987 Supreme Court Decision barring the teaching of Creationism.


I previously provided three quotes from Of Pandas and People that clearly says that identifying the desiger is beyond the scope of ID theory. If you missed them here they are again:


Quote:
But what kind of intelligent agent was it? On its own, science cannot answer this question; it must leave it to religion and philosophy. (Of Pandas and People (2nd ed, 1993), pg. 7



Quote:
Today we recognize that appeals to intelligent design may be considered in science, as illustrated by current NASA search for extraterrestrial intelligence (SETI). Archaeology has pioneered the development of methods for distinguishing the effects of natural and intelligent causes. We should recognize, however, that if we go further, and conclude that the intelligence responsible for biological origins is outside the universe (supernatural) or within it, we do so without the help of science." (Of Pandas and People (2nd ed, 1993), pg. 126-127




Quote:
The idea that life had an intelligent source is hardly unique to Christian fundamentalism. Advocates of design have included not only Christians and other religious theists, but pantheists, Greek and Enlightenment philosophers and now include many modern scientists who describe themselves as religiously agnostic. Moreover, the concept of design implies absolutely nothing about beliefs and normally associated with Christian fundamentalism, such as a young earth, a global flood, or even the existence of the Christian God. All it implies is that life had an intelligent source." (Of Pandas and People (2nd ed, 1993), pg. 161



As a scientific theory, all ID claims is that there is empirical evidence that key features of the universe and living things are the products of an intelligent cause. Whether the intelligent cause involved is inside or outside of nature cannot be decided by empirical evidence alone. That larger question involves philosophy and metaphysics.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Sat 8 Apr, 2006 10:38 am
Teleologist wrote:
As a scientific theory, all ID claims is that there is empirical evidence that key features of the universe and living things are the products of an intelligent cause.


It should, therefore, be the matter of but a moment's work for you to stipulate said empirical evidence--either describing it in detail, or, if too lenghthy, providing a link to a succinct statment of that empirical evidence.

Quote:
Whether the intelligent cause involved is inside or outside of nature cannot be decided by empirical evidence alone. That larger question involves philosophy and metaphysics.


What ho ? ! ? ? ! ?

Is that the back door standing ajar that i see? Has someone propped it open, providing an escape hatch? Is someone attempting to have his cake (claim that there is empirical evidence for "intelligent design"), and to eat it, as well (claim that the "intelligent designer" is beyond empirical proofs)?

As in, no naturalistic cause, as in, a petitio principi assertion about one's imaginary friend . . . er, i mean god . . . er, i mean, intelligent designer?

Yeah, we're all stupid, we'll swallow intellectual sewage like this. Say, you don't have any lake front lots in Arizona you'd be willing to sell us, do you?
0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Sat 8 Apr, 2006 11:00 am
The shrill reactions of all of the opponents here of any questioning of the presumed completeness of materialist-evolutionary models for not only the observable processes of the natural world, but also its, and our, existence, is a sad thing to see. -- Usually I am bemused by the ad hominem attacks, the demands for credentials on the part of antagonists who will not themselves under any circumstances engage the basic questions, the overwrought conspiracy theories, and the unthinking and thoughtless mockery on the part of those who react with horror to any questioning of an obviously incomplete doctrine which evidently they accept with the same fervor with which they accuse those who oppose them. However the intensity of the pileing on here is far out of proportion to the provocation (if indeed that is what it is.) A most unscientific and unphilosophic, display on the part of a mob of offended true believers.
0 Replies
 
 

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