0
   

The Maid of Orleans

 
 
jespah
 
  1  
Reply Thu 7 Nov, 2002 01:26 pm
Man, it would be sooo easy to take that last post outta context. :wink:

Many thanks for the bibliography, Setanta. And Walter - best wishes to your mother for a speedy recovery!
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Thu 7 Nov, 2002 03:24 pm
Jeanne d'Arc, Régine Pernoud et Marie-Véronique Clin, Paris, 1986.

Le procès de condemnation et le procès de réhabilitaion de Jeanne d'Arc, Raymond Oursel, editeur, Paris, 1959.

There, Craven, are you happy now?

This is not possible with the selection of US-International on my keyboard--therefore, i repeat, goddamned Gateway keyboard. I am only able to do this by specifying French as an additional keyboard language, and swithching to French to type the above. To use the UBB code to create the Italics, it is necessary to switch back to english, as a bracket--[ ] on the French keyboard produces the following: ^ç --which is not very bracket-like, and produces no UBB code.
0 Replies
 
Merry Andrew
 
  1  
Reply Thu 7 Nov, 2002 06:07 pm
Setanta, no need to apologize for your tone. I think I know you well enough by now -- and I certainly hope you know me well enough -- to know that no animus is intended. Nor is there any on my part. Isn't it nice to know we can have a civil discussion on this forum, even when we disagree?
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Fri 8 Nov, 2002 08:25 pm
Damn, where did i leave those notes of mine . . . i had a prepared speech, in which i was going to thoroughly excoriate you--to the point where "scurrilous" would have seemed positively flattering . . . and now i can't find my damned notes . . . hell, i could never make it at Afuzz anymore, i just can't extemporize the vile character assassination, etc. . . .

sigh . . . old age is hell . . .

heeheeheeheeheeheehee

okseeyahbye
0 Replies
 
Merry Andrew
 
  1  
Reply Fri 8 Nov, 2002 11:19 pm
Is old age hell, really? I wouldn't know.

Smile
0 Replies
 
Diane
 
  1  
Reply Wed 23 Jul, 2003 08:48 pm
MA, following your link from the delightful dinner party on Roberta's thread.
This is something to which I cannot contribute, but I do enjoy reading the posts.
0 Replies
 
hobitbob
 
  1  
Reply Mon 28 Jul, 2003 02:14 am
The Kelly DeVries book is excellent. I've used it when I've taught undergrad Medieval.
One influential later medieval woman who has always fascinated me is Margaret Beaufort, Henry VII's mum. She would appear to have been the power behind his successful campaign for the throne.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Mon 28 Jul, 2003 09:48 am
hobitbob wrote:
One influential later medieval woman who has always fascinated me is Margaret Beaufort, Henry VII's mum. She would appear to have been the power behind his successful campaign for the throne.


As a dughter of John of Gaunt (illegitimate, if i recall correctly), she would have been steeped in the intrigues of England's politics before ever she married Jasper Tudor.

As for other medieval women, i have always much admired Margaret of Denmark, the Norse woman who very nearly united Norway, Denmark and Sweden. But after Kalmar, her pragmatism took over, and she gave it up as a bad bet. Too bad, it certainly would have made European history much more interesting.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Sun 17 Dec, 2006 02:05 am
Digging up this rather old thread brings back some really good memories ...


Actually, I just want to present this new report from today's Observer

Quote:
Solved at last: the burning mystery of Joan of Arc

France's favourite saint was martyred by her English foes, who ordered her remains to be cast into the Seine. Now scientists believe they have established the facts surrounding her execution


Alex Duval Smith in Paris
Sunday December 17, 2006
The Observer

Catholic saint, national icon and one of the world's most famous military leaders, Joan of Arc has been a subject of fascination for the French for almost six centuries. Now academics believe they are close to proving that controversial relics are actually those of the real-life Maid of Orleans.
Much is unknown about the life of the warrior. Facts have often been mixed with myth and theory. But what is generally agreed is that Joan's body was burnt three times by the English and ashes from the foot of the pyre were supposedly discovered in 1867, lurking in the Paris loft of an apothecary .


French scientists, who have been studying those ashes, confirmed yesterday that a piece of cloth found among the remains may have been a fragment of Joan of Arc's gown. A new series of DNA tests of bones and tissue found among the ashes is expected to confirm that they belong to a female.
These initial discoveries suggest recent controversial claims surrounding the death of Joan of Arc are wrong. One theory, put forward by Ukrainian anthropologist Sergey Gorbenko, suggested Joan was not even burnt at the stake but lived to the age of 57. Another theory is that she was a man.

But the initial discoveries by forensic anthropologist Philippe Charlier, the project's leader, indicate that the standard version of Joan of Arc's death - by being burnt as a witch by the English - appears to be right, although the research has added intriguing detail to the story of her execution. Further tests were needed, said Charlier.

Tests on one bone found in the relics showed it was the femur of a cat. The discovery tallies with the medieval practice of throwing a black cat on a witch's pyre so as to appease the devil, according to Charlier. 'However, this femur is not burnt - it just looks it - so maybe we are just dealing with a passing cat,' he said.

Charlier said the most exciting discovery by his 18-strong team at the Hôpital Raymond Poincare near Paris was in the carbon-dating of the piece of cloth. 'It is linen of high quality and we can confirm that it dates from the 15th century. It could have been a robe or a bag.'

According to historians, Joan of Arc was 19 when she was burnt at the stake in Rouen by the English on 30 May, 1431. She died of smoke inhalation. The Cardinal of Winchester is recorded as having ordered her to be burnt a second time. Her organs still survived this fire, so a third burning was ordered to destroy the body completely. Her cinders and debris were to be thrown into the Seine.

However, in 1867 ashes that were said to include remains of Joan of Arc were found in the Paris loft of an apothecary. These were transferred to a museum in Chinon where they are still kept.

Charlier said his team's findings were preliminary and that work would continue at least until February next year. He added that he expected his team would be able to establish that the Chinon remains belonged to 'a female juvenile who was burnt several times at short intervals'. Charlier said pieces of wood among the relics, as well as the quality and age of the linen cloth should allow his team to date them within a 30-year range of accuracy and establish which region of France they are from.

'We are getting closer. Even though burning witches was a fairly common practice in those days, it is not as though 1,000 women were burnt three times in Rouen in 1431. It is also helpful for us - in terms of determining whether the relics are fakes or not - that the cult that has grown up around Joan of Arc is relatively recent. No one took much notice of her for the preceding 400 years. So there aren't dozens of boxes of relics kicking around, all claiming to be hers.'

Charlier came to prominence last year when he ascertained that Agnes Sorel, the favourite of King Charles VII, died from mercury poisoning. He took an interest in Joan of Arc because her presumed remains were stored in the same Chinon museum as those of Sorel.

An illiterate farm girl from Lorraine in eastern France, Joan of Arc disguised herself as a man in her campaigns. During her battles against the English and armies of the Duke of Burgundy, Joan was said to hear voices from a trio of saints telling her to deliver France from her enemies. She was finally captured and sold to the English, who had her tried for witchcraft in Rouen.

Joan of Arc was declared a saint in 1920. During the Second World War, both Vichy France and the French resistance claimed Joan of Arc as a national symbol for their cause.


Hits and myths


The Shroud of Turin was believed to be Christ's burial garment from the time of its emergence in 1354. At its first exhibition in 1389, it was denounced as a fake by the Bishop of Troyes. Ever since its authenticity has been questioned. Carbon dating of the cloth in 1988 determined that it originated sometime between 1260 and 1390. The Catholic Church has accepted that the shroud may not be genuine, but says it should still be revered because it bears an inspiring image of Jesus.

An exhibition in Russia in 2000 included a display of a fragment of Hitler's skull. Organisers of 'The Agony of the Third Reich: Retribution' said the skull was authentic, but this claim has been rejected by some experts. Hitler shot himself in his Berlin bunker in 1945, and his body was burnt and buried in a shallow grave. The facts about what happened to his remains have not been fully established.

A coffin held in church in Padua since 1172 may contain the remains of St Luke. Tests carried out by scientists in 2001 confirmed it was of the same Syrian origin as the author of the third Gospel. Carbon-dating tests suggested the body belonged to someone who died in the period of Luke's death, believed to be around AD 84.

Hair and fragments of the funeral cloth from the mummy of Ramses II were recently posted for sale on the internet. Police arrested the vendor, a postman from France, who said he had been given the pieces by his father, a researcher on a team that analysed the mummy in the 1970s. Ramses the Great's reign, between 1279 and 1213 BC, was the second longest in Egyptian history.
Alan Power
0 Replies
 
ossobuco
 
  1  
Reply Sun 17 Dec, 2006 12:20 pm
A passing cat!
What an image is that!
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Sun 17 Dec, 2006 12:37 pm
Your article is very interesting, Walter, but it contains a false statement which is repeated. Jeanne was not tried for witchcraft. As was so untypical of Inquisitorial processes, she was originally brought to trial without any charge specified. Eventually, she was accused of failure to submit to the Church Militant, and the wearing of men's clothing was the evidence thereof. She actually, in fact, submitted--so her jailers took away the garments she had been given, leaving her only men's clothing to wear.

She was not at any time accused (so far as written records show) of having practiced witchcraft.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Sun 17 Dec, 2006 12:54 pm
Issues Concerning Joanof Arc's Trial gives some infos about what Set already mentioned above.
0 Replies
 
Merry Andrew
 
  1  
Reply Sun 17 Dec, 2006 08:42 pm
Fascinating. Thanks for reviving the thread, Walter.
0 Replies
 
Dartagnan
 
  1  
Reply Sun 17 Dec, 2006 08:55 pm
Yes, thanks, Walter! Oddly enough, there's a bright golden statue of Jeanne d'Arc in a park near where I live in Portland. It was donated in honor of the French after WWI, I'm told..
0 Replies
 
Paaskynen
 
  1  
Reply Wed 27 Dec, 2006 02:06 am
As an unscripted aside:

In the early 1950s my father, may he rest in peace, was a sailor on coastal routes between Paris and Copenhagen (although his home port was Mariehamn on Åland). One of the favorite stories he recounted of those days was how he and a friend after a night of bar hopping in Rouen got the crazy idea of burning the statue of Joan d'Arc in the city square. They had already piled up some sticks and paper when a passing gendarme made them abandon their scheme which would surely have soured Franco-Finnish relations Laughing

Moral lesson to you young-uns: Do not act on bright ideas while you're plastered!
0 Replies
 
 

Related Topics

HAPPY ANNIVERSARY, EVERYONE! - Discussion by OmSigDAVID
WIND AND WATER - Discussion by Setanta
Who ordered the construction of the Berlin Wall? - Discussion by Walter Hinteler
True version of Vlad Dracula, 15'th century - Discussion by gungasnake
ONE SMALL STEP . . . - Discussion by Setanta
History of Gun Control - Discussion by gungasnake
Where did our notion of a 'scholar' come from? - Discussion by TuringEquivalent
 
Copyright © 2025 MadLab, LLC :: Terms of Service :: Privacy Policy :: Page generated in 0.05 seconds on 04/30/2025 at 08:15:13