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Has the corner been turned in the war against terror?

 
 
Scrat
 
  1  
Reply Tue 13 May, 2003 02:24 pm
Quote:
And I honestly think American conservatism (particularly under the gang of thugs known as the Bush Admnistration) is the most dangerous thing our country has ever had to face so far in its history.

Let's see...

...Slavery...
...Civil War...
...Pearl Harbor...
...9/11...

No offense, but I have to rank the actions of any political movement way down the scale of "most dangerous" thing to our country.

But no doubt that's just the rationalization of a newbie. :wink:

Oh, and last I checked, I was not the topic of this discussion. How about leaving off offering your opinions of me and give us your opinions of the topic being discussed. That's bound to be much more useful to everyone, and more conducive of civil discussion. Thanks.
0 Replies
 
ebrown p
 
  1  
Reply Tue 13 May, 2003 04:12 pm
Scrat wrote:
ebp - Is your argument that there is never a "greater good" to be had through the sacrifices made in war?


Fair question.

The answer of course, is yes. Here are several examples:

WWII was clearly a response to a threat to national security. First, we were directly attacked by Japan. Second, Germany proved itself a real threat who had conquered much of Europe and was threatening England (who, by the way invited us in). Don't even try to compare the unchecked threat posed by Germany to Iraq.

The Civil war was clearly a threat to the national security. The South were threatening the Union. I would also put the abolition of slavery as a "greater good" (although many historians question slavery as a reason for the war.

The Revolutionary war. Here the greater good was clear. Our liberty and freedom from the British crown.

In these three wars there are things in common:

- There was a real threat to national security shown by a direct act of aggression against us.
- In each case the "people" we were liberating actually *wanted* to be liberated.
- We did not initiate the agression.

The other wars we were involved in aren't as clear. The so-called "domino effect" that they used to sell the American public on the Vietnam conflect turned out to be exaggerated. Vietnam fell but the world didn't fall into the grips of the evil empire.

The first Iraq war could be argued as a response to an act of aggression.

But Bush's current war does not have any justification. There was no act of aggression. There was no real threat that could not be addressed with diplomacy. The Iraqi's did not want to be liberated, and the world didn't want the "salvation" we offered.

This was a pre-emptive war address a nebulous future threat. This does not justify the very real death and destruction rained on the Iraqi people.

There are just wars. This clearly isn't one of them.
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Tue 13 May, 2003 04:21 pm
Scrat wrote:
Quote:
And I honestly think American conservatism (particularly under the gang of thugs known as the Bush Admnistration) is the most dangerous thing our country has ever had to face so far in its history.

Let's see...

...Slavery...
...Civil War...
...Pearl Harbor...
...9/11...

No offense, but I have to rank the actions of any political movement way down the scale of "most dangerous" thing to our country.



No offense taken, Scrat -- I just think you are dead wrong. Slavery; the Civil War; Pearl Harbor; 9/11 were all bad. The current administration is terrifying -- and in my opinion, much more dangerous for the Republic. But you seem to be blind to the danger -- and, I must acknowledge, so do many Americans -- perhaps even the majority.

That is why I mention it so often. Hoping to wake you folks up.



Quote:
Oh, and last I checked, I was not the topic of this discussion. How about leaving off offering your opinions of me and give us your opinions of the topic being discussed. That's bound to be much more useful to everyone, and more conducive of civil discussion. Thanks.


Well, I will take your diversion under advisement -- but to be honest, I tend to speak my mind when I feel like it. I don't think I've gotten out of hand -- but if you do...why...tough!

Okay?
0 Replies
 
Scrat
 
  1  
Reply Tue 13 May, 2003 04:43 pm
Frank Apisa wrote:
Well, I will take your diversion under advisement -- but to be honest, I tend to speak my mind when I feel like it. I don't think I've gotten out of hand -- but if you do...why...tough!

Okay?

No, not really. I'm here for a courteous discussion of the issues. Sorry to learn that you are not.
0 Replies
 
Craven de Kere
 
  1  
Reply Tue 13 May, 2003 06:13 pm
Frank Apisa wrote:

Now that you are a conservative, that may sit well with you, but I like to poke these conservatives as often as possible. They're such fun to watch while they are reacting.


I preface my conservative comments with "conservative craven:" unless it is on the temp conservative thread.

The above was just a normal one.
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Tue 13 May, 2003 08:11 pm
Craven de Kere wrote:
Frank Apisa wrote:

Now that you are a conservative, that may sit well with you, but I like to poke these conservatives as often as possible. They're such fun to watch while they are reacting.


I preface my conservative comments with "conservative craven:" unless it is on the temp conservative thread.

The above was just a normal one.



Thank you for the clarification, Craven.

My comments stand. Although I agree with and have adopted some conservative elements into my personal philosophy, I consider American conservatism -- especially as lived by the people now in power -- to be the most dangerous factor ever to face this country -- and since we are a dominant force on the planet -- it is the most dangerous factor for the rest of the world also.

I think it is incumbant on every thinking human to confront it forcefully at every opportunity.

That may sound like hyperbole -- but I suggest that it isn't.
0 Replies
 
Tartarin
 
  1  
Reply Tue 13 May, 2003 08:43 pm
Although I don't think it needs comparison with the Civil War etc., I think the current administration (which is in fact radical and not conservative and is giving ol' conservatism a really bad name) is as dangerous to this country as communism was once considered to be (but most likely wasn't). Any group which relies in prevarication, secrecy, money, aggression, and fooling many of the people all of the time should be relieved of duty forthwith, and their supporters deeply embarrassed.
0 Replies
 
mamajuana
 
  1  
Reply Tue 13 May, 2003 10:51 pm
I don't even think we've reached a corner yet. The latest suicide bombings - this time in Saudi Arabia aimed against the Americans and those sympathetic to the Americans - that is an act of terrorism. Afghanistan certainly doesn't seem to have reached any corner on that yet - Armed guards ar necessary, and there is still a great deal of tribal warfare. And tonight, on the PBS Newshour, there were several discussions about AlQueda having splinter groups with the general opinion being that the terror is there.

So exactly what did this thing in Iraq accomplish? After using the war on terror, fearless leader announced the plan to rid the world of fear from Saddam Hussein's WMD. Well, for all we know, they may have been destroyed, or never actually produced, or even be somewhere else. Doesn't matter. We haven't found any. We never even found Osama or the mullahs, yet the bombings go on.

I agree with Tartarin and the others in thinking Scrat has a rationale rather than an argument. The question is - has the corner been turned in the war on terror. But trying to equate one killing with another begs the question. Terrorists have always, and will always be with us. But I can't see where anything has happened under Bush so far that has lessened the threat to us. As a matter of fact, the fact that they were able to get through a guarded area in Saudi Arabia and do their damage suggests that the warring members of this admin don't really have the foggiest notion. But why would they? They have never studied the history, the culture, the language of their enemy. Some of them have never even seen the geography.
0 Replies
 
babsatamelia
 
  1  
Reply Wed 14 May, 2003 09:55 pm
And a VERY convenient struggle with NO END IN SIGHT IT IS!!!
Yes sir, we sure got one helluva war of terrorism
going on. That's why you saw them using all of those
biological weapons they have on the US troops over
there in terror-land country.
It is a bit too convenient and it offers our OWN gov't more
freedom to take away more and more of our rights, little
by little ... for our own good....
it is for our own protection of course, you understand.
RIGHT???
All I can think of to say is that I may have been born
at night ...........
BUT IT WASN'T LAST NIGHT!!!!!!!!!
Wait! There is one more thing that I can think of to
add on this topic.
I had NO idea of the level of naivete of the average american citizen
....till just recently.
I underestimated it very, very much.
Tell them ANYTHING and they'll believe it.
It's like sheep waiting in line at the slaughterhouse.
If you open the gate and try to get them to make a run for it;
they're just TOO DAMNED STUPID to even try.
0 Replies
 
babsatamelia
 
  1  
Reply Wed 14 May, 2003 09:57 pm
Oh yes, and FRANK ..... while you're at it....
Poke 'em once for me too. Laughing Laughing
Oh and I forgot to add; AMEN BROTHER FRANK!
hehehe "gang of thugs"- indeed they are. Laughing Laughing Laughing
0 Replies
 
mamajuana
 
  1  
Reply Wed 14 May, 2003 10:29 pm
Babs - have you forgotten that this is the land of the quick-fix, of instant gratification, of fast food, of slick commercial advertising that sometimes forgets to tell you the product they're advertising because they're all caught up in the packaging? Oh Babs - you of short memory. Who do you think you're talking about?

We talk about this Iraqi war, about the war on terrorism as if it's real, but it's not. When you give a close look at what happens, it all comes down to a very slick advertising package of Bush. Bush as leader. That's what's it's all about. Talking tough about Iraq, about Syria, about North Korea, about anything, just so long as Rove gets him presented as fearless leader. So the public buys this picture of a strutting little man who never actually goes anywhere or seems to give anything but a few versions of a prepared stump speech as a leader, because it is of ultimate importance to that cabal that they win. What they win, how they win it doesn't seem to matter. very rarely do we hear anything at all about care or concern for the country. So of course the war on terrorism goes on, because the talk about it is so important to the cabal.

And I don't see where comparisons between different historical times and events is helpful. Each time throws up its own good and bad. I believe that this is one of the bad for many reasons, but hey, it's a democracy, right?

And amen from me, too, Frank.
0 Replies
 
Sofia
 
  1  
Reply Wed 14 May, 2003 10:46 pm
Scrat--

Not everyone discusses the member, rather than the content. It always says more about the person using that tack, than the one they criticise.

I agree with the point you made. Comparing this administration to the worst tragedies to befall this country is ludicrous, IMO.

Guess you got that "newbie" worn off here.
0 Replies
 
Scrat
 
  1  
Reply Thu 15 May, 2003 10:27 am
Sofia wrote:
Guess you got that "newbie" worn off here.

Yeah, I'm currently perusing the A2K manual to find out how long I have to be here before I am entitled to courteous treatment by the "oldies". Rolling Eyes
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Thu 15 May, 2003 11:09 am
Scrat wrote:
Sofia wrote:
Guess you got that "newbie" worn off here.

Yeah, I'm currently perusing the A2K manual to find out how long I have to be here before I am entitled to courteous treatment by the "oldies". Rolling Eyes




You gotta be the most thin skinned individual I've ever encountered in one of these forums.

Grow up a bit.

Some people express their thoughts with a bit more passion than others. In any case, civility is more than just a judgement about how a person says things. Taking WHAT at person says into consideration also counts -- and quite honestly, some of your notions defending the present administration and its policies are not only not civil -- they are also not especially civillized.
0 Replies
 
Tartarin
 
  1  
Reply Thu 15 May, 2003 12:19 pm
America as the terrorist:

When I was on active duty in the Navy back in the '60's and '70's we had nuclear weapons on our ships that were designed to be used in battle. The idea was that if we ever got into real trouble we could wipe out Soviet submarines and bombers with a few nuclear depth charges and nuclear surface to air missiles - hopefully without igniting a full scale nuclear holocaust.

The only problem was we all knew that was hogwash. I actually simulated firing off a bunch of these during military exercises and the results were so devastating I knew 3 things: First, these things were so powerful we could never really use them in battle without damaging ourselves. One nuclear depth charge would blind our submarine detection instruments in an entire ocean, for example. Second, once we went nuclear there was no way the Soviets wouldn't. And third, nuclear weapons are weapons of mass destruction and it would always be immoral to use them. Pres. Bush the elder eventually removed these nukes from our ships and out of the hands of at sea operational commanders. Congress finally made it illegal to create new "mini-nukes" in 1993 when they passed the Spratt-Furse provision.

Now Pres. Bush the younger and Congress are working to create a whole new generation of "usable" nukes. They are trying to repeal the Spratt-Furse provision so they can build a bunch of mini-nukes. They also want to spend millions to create a new high yield nuclear weapon to put on top of our conventional bunker busters, a weapon that already works fine.

The thought of this keeps me up at night for two reasons. First, America signed the global Non-Proliferation Treaty with over a hundred other nations. The deal was simple: If you don't have nuclear weapons, you can't build them; in exchange, those of us who do will work to get rid of ours. How can we complain that countries like North Korea shouldn't build new nuclear weapons in violation of the treaty when the Bush Administration proposes doing the very same thing? Second, with a trigger-happy White House that believes our country can win "pre-emptive wars" on the cheap, those folks might actually use these things if they ever got their hands on them....

Vice Adm. Jack Shanahan (Ret.)
0 Replies
 
Craven de Kere
 
  1  
Reply Thu 15 May, 2003 12:29 pm
Frank,

Do you really think that the mere difference in opinion is both uncivil and uncivilized? Come on! Those qualities exist and are far more serious affronts than holding a different viewpoint.
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Thu 15 May, 2003 02:35 pm
Craven de Kere wrote:
Frank,

Do you really think that the mere difference in opinion is both uncivil and uncivilized? Come on!


No, Craven, not all. But sometimes it is! Definitely, sometimes it is.

As an extreme example: I don't care how courteously worded a defense of Hitler's tactics might be -- I would consider it uncivil and uncivilized.

Now I happen to be of the opinion that the current president of our country and the people who surround and influence him constitute the most dangerous peril this country has ever faced. This group, in my opinion, is a degenerate, sneaky group intent on changing (for the worse) institutions and prescedents that have taken a long time to establish -- and they are doing it almost by fiat.

And I needn't point out that the last election was hardly a mandate for great change.

I despise what they are doing; I cringe at what they are doing; I outright admit that I fear what they are doing.

Scrat has chosen to come into this forum and defend them -- and the mischief they are perpetrating.

I am opposing that defense as strongly as I can.

Scrat, this supposed Newbie, has been here for just a few days -- and has already complained a half dozen times (that I've seen) about the way people respond to what he/she has to say.

Hey, an Internet discussion forum is no place for the thin skinned -- unless they realize that most people are not going to play some silly game that involves being very kind and careful with wording -- to the point where ideas and passion become diluted and, quite frankly, the conversations become boring.
0 Replies
 
Craven de Kere
 
  1  
Reply Thu 15 May, 2003 02:58 pm
But discussion would be very limited if mere positions are considered not civil even if they are stated in a way meant to avoid animosity.
0 Replies
 
mamajuana
 
  1  
Reply Thu 15 May, 2003 03:15 pm
Craven, I am not clear about what you mean in your sentence above.

Frank - I agree with you. Thin-skinned is what it is. Scrat, what appears to be the case is that you say what your opinions are, but do not take kindly to an opposing one. In other words, if one dishes it out, one has to expect that one will be dished. And for you to imply that one has to be around longer than you in order to be treated courteously is nonsense. We all started out here as newbies (except Craven who, despite his youthful appearance, is actually senior from the start). And I can't recall an instance when I was treated discourteously, even by those who didn't agree with me. That's been one of the good things about able. As a matter of fact, that very statement "Yeah, I'm currently perusing the A2K manual to find out how long I have to be here before I am entitled to courteous treatment by the oldies" is inflamatory. I hope it wasn't meant to be.
0 Replies
 
Craven de Kere
 
  1  
Reply Thu 15 May, 2003 03:38 pm
mamajuana,

I mean that if someone decides that simply holding a certain political opinion, in this case a large and common one, is uncivil despite that person's attempts at conversational civility it is not possible for that person to be civil under that criteria and makes for quite a boring conversation.
0 Replies
 
 

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