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Democrats - How Would You Deal with Militant Islam?

 
 
candidone1
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Mar, 2006 02:38 pm
candidone1 wrote:
Since all the token conservatives are demanding an answer from "Democrats" (as if it's only up to them to ddecide) on how to deal with militant Islam....perhaps I'll take a stab at it.
(So-called "militant Islam" in 2001 was of a different kind and quality than the militant Islam of 2006, so we must frame our discussion around how we should have dealt with it then.)

I would have begun first by publicly acknowledging that the United States has had a history of supporting radical/extremist mujahideen fighters in Afghanistan, and that this is potentially a monster that the US created. Perhaps I'm naive in thinking that honesty would have been beneficial in rallying support for a this malignant group. The US militarily funded and ideologically supported the voilent mujahideen in hopes of combatting Russian influence in the middle east. The Taliban was an eventual sconsequence.
The United States created the Taliban, and that needed to be publicly announced.

From there, the administration should have acknowledged the origin of the threat, and perhaps introspected not only the what and the where, but also the why behind the attacks....and not asking "why do they hate us when we're so good." Denial in this respect has proven costly.
Bush predictably decided that making terrorist-like non-negotiable demands of Afghanistan was more effective than diplomacy.

If escalating the level of violence was the only solution, then a mission to seek and destroy al Qaeda would have been appropriate, as the Taliban had fallen into disfavor throughout the region, support would have been almost universal both locally and internationally. The false connection with Iraq was transparent from the beginning, and only proved to be more so later on. Liberating the Iraqi people was not even the original war aim.

**I'll leave this and come back and finish this later, if there are any comments, I'll respond then. I have to get off to work**


I would suspect that had the United States truly wanted to "bring the perpetrators to justice", they would have sought a more legitimate means to their end (what would have most likely garnered unconditional support from the international community). Instead, the Bush administration manufactured evidence of a Saddam/al Qaeda connection and proceeded into Iraq after Saddam with exponentially more manpower than they had into Afghanistan for bin Laden. Suddenly, a regime change in Iraq constituted "justice" for the perpetrators of 9/11...and the American people bought it. It's also unfortunate that the Democrats bought the tripe peddled to them by this administration, because in hindsight, it makes them appear to have supported the invasion, but they supported it under the same false pretenses as the American public.

So, asking how the Dems would deal with militant Islam now is completely unfair. You can't mislead them into a major, and poorly planned conflict and then say "Ok, you guys are taking such pleasure in lamb-basting Bush over Iraq, what would you do...."
The Dems probably wouldn't have had such a hard on for Saddam because last time I checked, he didn't try to kill any of the Democrats' fathers.
This is clearly a carry over of Bush I...and the republicans need to clean up the mess they got in to. IMO, that's why W. got re elected.
0 Replies
 
Brandon9000
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Mar, 2006 03:22 pm
candidone1 wrote:
I would suspect that had the United States truly wanted to "bring the perpetrators to justice", they would have sought a more legitimate means to their end (what would have most likely garnered unconditional support from the international community). Instead, the Bush administration manufactured evidence of a Saddam/al Qaeda connection and proceeded into Iraq after Saddam with exponentially more manpower than they had into Afghanistan for bin Laden. Suddenly, a regime change in Iraq constituted "justice" for the perpetrators of 9/11...

Categorically false. I defy you to find any statement anywhere in which Bush blames Iraq for 9/11. Bush said clearly over and over again that he was invading Iraq to insure that its WMD were gone.
0 Replies
 
candidone1
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Mar, 2006 03:33 pm
Brandon9000 wrote:
candidone1 wrote:
I would suspect that had the United States truly wanted to "bring the perpetrators to justice", they would have sought a more legitimate means to their end (what would have most likely garnered unconditional support from the international community). Instead, the Bush administration manufactured evidence of a Saddam/al Qaeda connection and proceeded into Iraq after Saddam with exponentially more manpower than they had into Afghanistan for bin Laden. Suddenly, a regime change in Iraq constituted "justice" for the perpetrators of 9/11...

Categorically false. I defy you to find any statement anywhere in which Bush blames Iraq for 9/11. Bush said clearly over and over again that he was invading Iraq to insure that its WMD were gone.


Quote:
In the aftermath of Sept. 11, President Bush ordered his then top anti-terrorism adviser to look for a link between Iraq and the attacks, despite being told there didn't seem to be one


Source

Quote:
The Sept. 11 commission reported yesterday that it has found no "collaborative relationship" between Iraq and al Qaeda, challenging one of the Bush administration's main justifications for the war in Iraq


Source

Quote:
WASHINGTON - The commission investigating the Sept. 11 attacks reported Wednesday that Osama bin Laden met with a top Iraqi official in 1994 but found "no credible evidence" of a link between Iraq and al-Qaida in attacks against the United States.


Source

<waits for Brandon to spin this in his usual fashion>
0 Replies
 
freedom4free
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Mar, 2006 03:38 pm
Stop U.S. Support of Israeli War on the Palestinians.

it's a good start.
0 Replies
 
candidone1
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Mar, 2006 03:41 pm
Brandon9000 wrote:
Cycloptichorn wrote:
Do you think it is a problem, Brandon, that the US and Israel are both in violation of treaty agreements?

SHouldn't we be cleaning our own house, as well?

Cycloptichorn


First of all, if you're going to accuse anyone of anything, e.g. treaty violations, you should be specific. However, we were so concerned with Iraq's violation of it's Gulf War 1 surrender treaty, not because we see it as our duty to enforce every treaty anyone signs, but because it involved preventing a partiuclarly dangerous dictator from ammassing nuclear and biological weapons.


Following the debacle in Nicaragua, Nicaragua took the US to the World Court, where the ruling went in favor of Nicaragua. The US flat out ignored paying reparations, or anything of that sort as determined by the decision.
The US then went on to veto security council resolution that told states that they needed to follow international law....so yes, some minor housekeeping is in order.
The US has a long history of vetoing security council resolutions that are supported overwhelmingly by the international community. Unfortunately, there is no bully above the US that can ensure they are in compliance. That's the responsibility of the so called beacon of freedom and democracy--to respect the rules of law in the same ways you expect others to adhere to them.
0 Replies
 
Brandon9000
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Mar, 2006 03:51 pm
candidone1 wrote:
Brandon9000 wrote:
Cycloptichorn wrote:
Do you think it is a problem, Brandon, that the US and Israel are both in violation of treaty agreements?

SHouldn't we be cleaning our own house, as well?

Cycloptichorn


First of all, if you're going to accuse anyone of anything, e.g. treaty violations, you should be specific. However, we were so concerned with Iraq's violation of it's Gulf War 1 surrender treaty, not because we see it as our duty to enforce every treaty anyone signs, but because it involved preventing a partiuclarly dangerous dictator from ammassing nuclear and biological weapons.


Following the debacle in Nicaragua, Nicaragua took the US to the World Court, where the ruling went in favor of Nicaragua. The US flat out ignored paying reparations, or anything of that sort as determined by the decision.
The US then went on to veto security council resolution that told states that they needed to follow international law....so yes, some minor housekeeping is in order.
The US has a long history of vetoing security council resolutions that are supported overwhelmingly by the international community. Unfortunately, there is no bully above the US that can ensure they are in compliance. That's the responsibility of the so called beacon of freedom and democracy--to respect the rules of law in the same ways you expect others to adhere to them.

I'm kind of curious as to what treaties we may have signed regarding an agreement to abide by World Court decisions, and, frankly, I don't know much about it. Do you? Anyway, my primary point in that post was that the fact the we enforced Iraq's compliance with a treaty was not because we are obsessed with treaty compliance, but because we were, in that case, deeply concerned about the underlying issue - doomsday weapons in the hands of a monster.
0 Replies
 
Brandon9000
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Mar, 2006 03:53 pm
candidone1 wrote:
Brandon9000 wrote:
candidone1 wrote:
I would suspect that had the United States truly wanted to "bring the perpetrators to justice", they would have sought a more legitimate means to their end (what would have most likely garnered unconditional support from the international community). Instead, the Bush administration manufactured evidence of a Saddam/al Qaeda connection and proceeded into Iraq after Saddam with exponentially more manpower than they had into Afghanistan for bin Laden. Suddenly, a regime change in Iraq constituted "justice" for the perpetrators of 9/11...

Categorically false. I defy you to find any statement anywhere in which Bush blames Iraq for 9/11. Bush said clearly over and over again that he was invading Iraq to insure that its WMD were gone.


Quote:
In the aftermath of Sept. 11, President Bush ordered his then top anti-terrorism adviser to look for a link between Iraq and the attacks, despite being told there didn't seem to be one


Source

Quote:
The Sept. 11 commission reported yesterday that it has found no "collaborative relationship" between Iraq and al Qaeda, challenging one of the Bush administration's main justifications for the war in Iraq


Source

Quote:
WASHINGTON - The commission investigating the Sept. 11 attacks reported Wednesday that Osama bin Laden met with a top Iraqi official in 1994 but found "no credible evidence" of a link between Iraq and al-Qaida in attacks against the United States.


Source

<waits for Brandon to spin this in his usual fashion>

Sure, well if you'll just cite the quotation in which the president says that Iraq participated in 9/11, I'll admit that you're right.
0 Replies
 
Montana
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Mar, 2006 04:58 pm
Laughing
0 Replies
 
cjhsa
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Mar, 2006 05:05 pm
Well, I for one have not forgotten the events of 9/11. Never forget.
0 Replies
 
Montana
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Mar, 2006 05:11 pm
None of us will, CJ :-(
0 Replies
 
Anon-Voter
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Mar, 2006 05:22 pm
cjhsa wrote:
Well, I for one have not forgotten the events of 9/11. Never forget.


We're not asking anyone to forget CJ, we're asking that we all be smart as to how we deal with it.

Anon
0 Replies
 
cjhsa
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Mar, 2006 05:24 pm
I think you're saying we need to pay them off.
0 Replies
 
Anon-Voter
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Mar, 2006 05:38 pm
Sunnis Denounce Plan by U.S. and Iran to Hold Talks on Iraq

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/03/17/international/middleeast/17cnd-iraq.html?hp&ex=1142658000&en=7872b8bd00fc9b9f&ei=5094&partner=homepage

Meanwhile, Iran and the U.S. talk about Iraq! I'm talking about being smart Idea

Anon
0 Replies
 
cjhsa
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Mar, 2006 05:48 pm
I trust the NY Times about as much as I trust you. Yet I read it, twice, and still don't see where the U.S. has agreed to talks with Iran. Nada.

That said, I would expect the government of the most powerful nation in the world to hold regular talks with just about any and every nation. I'm quite sure it's in the budget somewhere. You just don't hear about it. In this case, a liberal rag picked up on a story leaked by Iran. Kinda hard to accept as pure fact if you ask me.
0 Replies
 
Anon-Voter
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Mar, 2006 06:24 pm
From Fox News!


Iran: We're Ready to Talk With U.S. About Iraq


http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,188067,00.html

Quote:


We've gone from no talks, to talking. We have to start somewhere. This is as good as any!

Anon
0 Replies
 
Montana
 
  1  
Reply Sat 18 Mar, 2006 12:10 am
CJ
You mentioned 9/11 and I wonder sometimes if you're at all worried about the fact that the people who are responsible for 9/11 are still out there and very free.
I know I'm extremely concerned about that.
0 Replies
 
 

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