Comma wars

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I'm sure this topic has been discussed before, but when I did a search the resulting list was just too long for impatient me.

A friend and I are having a disagreement about the placement of the comma in this sentence:

Quote:

The many diverse forms their statements have taken reflect the origin of the word satire, which is derived from the Latin satura, meaning meaning "dish of mixed fruits," hence a medley.

She says that it is used correctly; that where a comma and quotation marks are used together, the comma is always contained within the quotation marks.

I say that the comma should be outside the quotation marks in this case, because the quotes are used to define a term (which happens to be multi-word) and the comma is used to modulate the overall sentence.

Our arguments were becoming ridiculous, so I thought I would bring it to the experts. What say you?

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I had been taught, both in secondary school and university, that a comma in such a situation should always appear within the quotation marks. I have no doubt that you will find people who will be willing to argue your point of view, however. I suggest to you that if this is so important to you, you might consult the MLA Style Manual, which you sould be able to find at the Library at the U of T.

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I also think it belongs within the quotation marks. It's the American Way... The British think differently and put punctuation outside the marks, unless the punctuation belongs to the quoted material.

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HA! I thought this said "Coma Wars" and was very interested in what the hell a coma war was....

Sorry.....

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Inside, yep.

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Must be an engineer. I tried to convince people of the same thing for a while, but gave it up.

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A brief look around the www and I've discovered yet another difference between American and British customs:

Quote:

In American usage, punctuation that goes inside the closing quotation mark includes a period or comma (but not a colon or semicolon). In British usage, the period and the comma go outside the quotation mark. The dash, question mark, and exclamation point fall inside quotation marks if they belong with the quoted matter but outside if they punctuate the sentence as a whole.

and

Quote:

Some writers leave periods and commas outside of quoted material if that punctuation belongs to the sentence as a whole.

from here

.... and from a New Yorker book review of Eats, Shoots and Leaves:

Quote:

So both are correct, depending on nationality. Here's a little game based on the book: punctuation game

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It's not only the difference between US-English and British English - other languages do the same like the English: commata outside.

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Yeah, what Walter said. And I believe that Canadian English, which seems to be relevant since you live in Toronto, follows the British convention here.

(Comma rules in the US are yet another demonstration of what a silly idea it was to declare independence.)

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Canadian here - outside the quotation marks.

The inside way <to me> always looks like the editor missed something.

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I'm afraid that I follow my own rules on some matters of grammar, punctuation, and, sometimes, of spelling; I've found that if I hold on long enough some newly unearthed or newly made rule will come along to support my instincts. I'm from the US and would put the comma outside the parentheses in that example because it makes sense relative to the sentence.

In the US, rules can vary depending on whether the material is printed in a magazine, a newspaper, or a book. Use of the serial comma is an example of such a situation. I don't know if the use of comma within parentheses varies by where the sentence is published though.

I think Roberta, who is a longtime book editor, had a good old thread on the use of the comma. I'll try to find a link for that.

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http://www.able2know.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=8001&start=0

Here's a thread by Roberta that's to the point, and corroborates what others have said about US usage. I must have British instincts...

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Sorry, I meant to say quotation marks, not parentheses.

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Thanks, Ossobucco.

Well, I think I'll stick to my British-based Canadian ways. Cool

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I'm always wondering if I'm putting my commas in the right place, but in this situation, I always put them outside the quotation marks because I feel that the quote needs to end before anything else begins.

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Quote:

I had been taught, both in secondary school and university, that a comma in such a situation should always appear within the quotation marks. I have no doubt that you will find people who will be willing to argue your point of view, however. I suggest to you that if this is so important to you, you might consult the MLA Style Manual, which you sould be able to find at the Library at the U of T.

Quote:

HA! I thought this said "Coma Wars" and was very interested in what the hell a coma war was....

Sorry.....

Laughing

Well done. Well done indeed!

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In the example "a dish of mixed fruits," which is used to define a word, the comma is not part of the definition, and therefore belongs outside the quotation marks. The comma's purpose is to aid in understanding the sentence.

I'm not convinced that this is standard American practice.

Roberta's thread--which ossobuco linked--is a different matter, IMO.

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Comma wars

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