Obama '08?

No argument out of me in regard to McCain, ci.

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On pinning Obama down, his supporters probably need to worry about what might get pinned. . . .

http://media.townhall.com/Townhall/Car/b/mrz070408dAPR.jpg

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Foxfyre, hopefully Obama can help restore the Constitution and Bill of Rights Bushie and the GOP have left in tatters. What makes America great among nations is the Constitution and Bill of Rights. Obama can start by restoring habeas corpus and the 4th Amendment. If he fails to act on that he fails. http://www.aclu.org/safefree/detention/commissions.html

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okie wrote:

... I had to conclude his political strategy was to triangulate all of the political persuasions, to be above the fray, to see them all as good because they all have their redeeming qualities, and morph them into one all knowing correct policy. And only the all knowing arbiter of all of this was Mr. Obama. He alone has the wisdom and political ability to bring change to the political world, to end all the partisanship, all the in fighting, and end up with the perfect world with all the correct answers.

Ignoring the sarcasm, are you saying that Obama's strategy is to review opposing positions without preconceptions, take the good parts from each side and form a new policy that has optimum solutions even if it ignores political boundaries? That sounds like a more reasonable strategy than saying "I'm going to push for policies that have failed or where data exists to say they won't work because they will work this time. I will ignore ideas from the other side because they're idiots or evil, probably both. I will rely on rhetoric and hyperbole so that even if I lose, I will win in the next election."

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I understand your post, engineer, the concept you are using, but I think the problem is more one of not taking a position or declaring one way is right and another wrong. We live in a world that avoids black and white, and has embraced the whole concept of shades of gray, which is what I think Obama is doing. Thus, the further he gets into the details, the more confusing an issue becomes.

I prefer a leader that has firm principles on core issues. Yes we can negotiate on the details, but there are certain principles that are right and others that are wrong. And I think that is where Obama is failing us, he doesn't have a set of core principles that I can see.

Reagan had the philosophy that behind complex problems were simple principles, and by understanding and asserting a simple principle, many problems can be solved. I like that way of thinking. You must first understand the principle behind a problem, and I think that is what we are missing big time.

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And the fact that the pundits and cartoonists are zeroing in on Obama's multiple positions on numerous issues lately suggests that he has not arrived at a core philosophy yet. "Change" should not be sufficiently compelling to anybody without a more concise definition.

http://media.townhall.com/Townhall/Car/b/lb0708cd.jpg

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okie wrote:

Cycloptichorn wrote:
'Told who to vote for?'

You presume knowledge where you have none, Fox. How do you know these people are told who to vote for? Or that they actually vote for these people, once in the booth?

It's just another tired Republican trope, oft repeated but little verified.

FD is right - you don't know what you are talking about, in the slightest. I've done plenty of voter registration work myself, much of it in what would accurately be described as slums and ghettos, and we never told anyone who to vote for, ever. In fact, we weren't legally allowed to even talk about it with them unless they asked us direct questions about the candidate, iirc.

Cycloptichorn

Did you ask for ID's cyclops, and did you verify if they were already registered either there or somewhere else? How did you know you didn't sign up a bunch of people illegally? Or did you care?

In my precinct, you walk up to the registrar, state your name and that's it!
If you are registered, your name is in the book! Anything else is illegal!
If your name has been deleted, you can ask for a provisional ballot! That's it! Apparently no one has asked YOU to verify YOURSELF, so why should anyone else be asked? You've got a lot of nerve! These are the tactics used by "Jim Crow", throughout the South, before the Voting Rights Act was passed! Rolling Eyes

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It's because okie is ignorant of not only the history of the south, but anything to do with the Civil Rights Act of 1967.

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I bet Okie knows there wasn't a Civil Rights Act of 1967. I think that was the year they dealt with age discrimination though. It hasn't worked out too well.

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Oh yeah, I should have said Civil Rights Act of 1964. Thanks for bringing it to my attention.

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teenyboone wrote:

okie wrote:
Cycloptichorn wrote:
'Told who to vote for?'

You presume knowledge where you have none, Fox. How do you know these people are told who to vote for? Or that they actually vote for these people, once in the booth?

It's just another tired Republican trope, oft repeated but little verified.

FD is right - you don't know what you are talking about, in the slightest. I've done plenty of voter registration work myself, much of it in what would accurately be described as slums and ghettos, and we never told anyone who to vote for, ever. In fact, we weren't legally allowed to even talk about it with them unless they asked us direct questions about the candidate, iirc.

Cycloptichorn

Did you ask for ID's cyclops, and did you verify if they were already registered either there or somewhere else? How did you know you didn't sign up a bunch of people illegally? Or did you care?

In my precinct, you walk up to the registrar, state your name and that's it!
If you are registered, your name is in the book! Anything else is illegal!
If your name has been deleted, you can ask for a provisional ballot! That's it! Apparently no one has asked YOU to verify YOURSELF, so why should anyone else be asked? You've got a lot of nerve! These are the tactics used by "Jim Crow", throughout the South, before the Voting Rights Act was passed!

I wasn't referring to voting, I was referring to becoming registered to vote. It has been a long time since I registered, but I think I had to provide an I.D. to prove I was who I said I was, and that I was a resident of the county. Sheesh, what is so terrible about that, and unreasonable?

And providing I.D. to vote is not a bad idea as well, to show you are the person on the voter registration rolls.

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Foxfyre wrote:

I bet Okie knows there wasn't a Civil Rights Act of 1967. I think that was the year they dealt with age discrimination though. It hasn't worked out too well.

The irony.
K
O

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By the way, I see Obama is really into conservation. The Pepsi Center isn't good enough by itself, he has to fire up Invesco Field, the stadium, too. I would like to see the bill for wiring these places for all of this confusion, and the electric bill for all of that, and this after we already know who is the nominee. Do we have to witness thousands of people waving change signs for how many days, and then listen to his speech saying "uh, ah, oom, ah," etc., and does it take a stadium to say it?

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okie wrote:

By the way, I see Obama is really into conservation. The Pepsi Center isn't good enough by itself, he has to fire up Invesco Field, the stadium, too. I would like to see the bill for wiring these places for all of this confusion, and the electric bill for all of that, and this after we already know who is the nominee. Do we have to witness thousands of people waving change signs for how many days, and then listen to his speech saying "uh, ah, oom, ah," etc., and does it take a stadium to say it?

Your fear is showing. Pretty funny Laughing

He's going to kick McCain's ass, and you Conservatives are going to be faced with a choice: learn to go along or be even further marginalized. My guess is that you will choose the hard road and have to learn some hard lessons.

Cycloptichorn

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You got it wrong, cyclops. This is supposed to be a free country, so I don't have to go along just to get along. I am perfectly happy with what I believe, so just because something else is a fad doesn't mean I have to join in. Have your fun, but please don't step on the rest of our toes in doing it, as that is not the American way.

I was just pointing out hypocrisy when I see it, cyclops.

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okie wrote:

You got it wrong, cyclops. This is supposed to be a free country, so I don't have to go along just to get along. I am perfectly happy with what I believe, so just because something else is a fad doesn't mean I have to join in. Have your fun, but please don't step on the rest of our toes in doing it, as that is not the American way.

I was just pointing out hypocrisy when I see it, cyclops.

No, you weren't. You were attempting to get a dig in at the guy who is currently winning. He can fill that stadium; He's already packed the arena that McCain will get the nomination in, has to move on to something bigger.

You're going for digs, b/c you can see that he is likely to win.

And yes, your side - that is, Republicans - are going to have to learn to go along. You guys aren't very good at that. This term your team did everything they can to stall and delay every piece of legislation that they didn't like; part of the result is that you are going to lose many more seats in the Congress and likely the presidency as well, the current occupant being so unpopular he can't even campaign with your fore-runner openly for fear of tarnishing him.

Universal Health Care? Not a fad.
Paying for College? Not a fad.
Responsible foreign policy? Not a fad.

You group can go along with these things or get left behind, it's up to you. Two terms of extremely bad election results will act as a lesson, whether you want to learn it, or not.

Cycloptichorn

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Ask not what Obama can do for you, ask what you can do for yourself without any involvement from big government.

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Cycloptichorn wrote:

Universal Health Care? Not a fad.
Paying for College? Not a fad.
Responsible foreign policy? Not a fad.

Cycloptichorn

Translation, I pay for your health care and I pay for you going to college? Responsible foreign policy, huh, we are winning in Iraq, cyclops, the war that your congress voted for, and even Obama is now saying he must listen to the commanders in the field, which is what Bush has been doing, it is a Bush policy. And if a responsible foreign policy includes bombing Pakistan, uh, well, we will just have to wait and see, won't we.

But bottom line, Obama is the fad, and I have not much clue about what he will actually do, although I have a few suspicions, and it won't be pretty in my opinion.

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okie wrote:

Cycloptichorn wrote:

Universal Health Care? Not a fad.
Paying for College? Not a fad.
Responsible foreign policy? Not a fad.

Cycloptichorn

Translation, I pay for your health care and I pay for you going to college?

Yes, and I pay for your health car and for you or your kids to go to college. It works out nicely.

Quote:

Responsible foreign policy, huh, we are winning in Iraq, cyclops, the war that your congress voted for, and even Obama is now saying he must listen to the commanders in the field, which is what Bush has been doing, it is a Bush policy.

No, that is how you Republicans would like to describe it. He's been consistent about pulling out of Iraq when he enters office.

Quote:

And if a responsible foreign policy includes bombing Pakistan, uh, well, we will just have to wait and see, won't we.

Sure, if that's where AQ leaders are. Was it responsible foreign policy to go after Afghanistan? Bet your ass it was. To do the same in Pakistan would be finishing the job that your bunch abandoned, for they never really cared about catching Bin Laden or stopping AQ; it was just an excuse to start other wars which were profitable for their friends and donors.

Quote:

But bottom line, Obama is the fad, and I have not much clue about what he will actually do, although I have a few suspicions, and it won't be pretty in my opinion.

Well, that's because you are on the wrong side of public opinion on a wide variety of issues. Your pronouncement that it 'won't be pretty' is what every political party who is about to lose says about the other guys. It's not a substantive criticism.

Cycloptichorn

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Cycloptichorn wrote:

Yes, and I pay for your health car and for you or your kids to go to college. It works out nicely.

Sweet! What kind of health car?

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