ebrown p
 
  1  
Fri 13 Jun, 2008 10:24 am
Okie, I got two pieces of homework for you....

First, go to that hardware store and ask them what they do with the IDs they receive (hint: they don't use it record the information).

Second, find out how this profiling works. Has it stopped graffiti?
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Fri 13 Jun, 2008 10:27 am
H2O_MAN wrote:
okie wrote:
I thought he quit? He tried at least once.

Besides, H2OMan, there you go stereotyping again. Profiling! That is not politically correct.


Yes - Obama fits a profile - he's weak.

The whole PC thing has caused the pussyfication of out country.


Tobacco addiction is not a 'weakness'. It is an addiction, and one that is damn hard to break. I know since I probably quit 30 times before it actually stuck--non smoker now for going on 18 years, but I know that one cigarette could have me chain smoking again. And, without a good support system, stress can wear down the strongest person's defenses and I can't imagine many things more stressful than a Presidential campaign.

I can forgive Obama for falling off the tobacco wagon. If he is still smoking, however, it will make his life more uncomfortable when he is unable to smoke for prolonged periods.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Fri 13 Jun, 2008 10:31 am
Yes, the way this campaign is "regressing," it'll be about stained teeth; we can't have that in our president.
0 Replies
 
H2O MAN
 
  1  
Fri 13 Jun, 2008 11:16 am
Foxfyre wrote:


Tobacco addiction is not a 'weakness'. It is an addiction, and one that is damn hard to break.


If he's is too weak to break the addiction, he is too weak to be CIC.
0 Replies
 
okie
 
  1  
Fri 13 Jun, 2008 11:22 am
ebrown_p wrote:
Okie, I got two pieces of homework for you....

First, go to that hardware store and ask them what they do with the IDs they receive (hint: they don't use it record the information).

Second, find out how this profiling works. Has it stopped graffiti?


It could if the lawyers probably haven't placed so many roadblocks in the way. Lawyers and bleeding heart liberals have tied the hands of the law in many different ways, that I know, but as far as doing your research for you, I am not interested. I imagine the mere fact of having the flier in the store may be a deterrent. What they can actually do with the information, they probably wouldn't even tell me even if I asked, and if I asked you, you would charge me $250 per hour to tell me, if you are a lawyer, or ripoff artist. I am not interested.

By the way, graffiti may seem to be a fairly innocent crime, but it causes millions in destruction, and is a violation of property ownership and rights. It has gone beyond the casual and occasional incident by a dumb teenager to organized efforts by gangs and criminals to mark out their territory and so forth.
0 Replies
 
okie
 
  1  
Fri 13 Jun, 2008 11:25 am
H2O_MAN wrote:
Foxfyre wrote:


Tobacco addiction is not a 'weakness'. It is an addiction, and one that is damn hard to break.


If he's is too weak to break the addiction, he is too weak to be CIC.


You could be wrong, because there are other examples of CIC that smoke. Example, Fidel Castro smoked cigars all of his life didn't he?
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Fri 13 Jun, 2008 11:26 am
okie wrote:
ebrown_p wrote:
Okie, I got two pieces of homework for you....

First, go to that hardware store and ask them what they do with the IDs they receive (hint: they don't use it record the information).

Second, find out how this profiling works. Has it stopped graffiti?


It could if the lawyers probably haven't placed so many roadblocks in the way. Lawyers and bleeding heart liberals have tied the hands of the law in many different ways, that I know, but as far as doing your research for you, I am not interested. I imagine the mere fact of having the flier in the store may be a deterrent. What they can actually do with the information, they probably wouldn't even tell me even if I asked, and if I asked you, you would charge me $250 per hour to tell me, if you are a lawyer, or ripoff artist. I am not interested.

By the way, graffiti may seem to be a fairly innocent crime, but it causes millions in destruction, and is a violation of property ownership and rights. It has gone beyond the casual and occasional incident by a dumb teenager to organized efforts by gangs and criminals to mark out their territory and so forth.


You didn't actually answer his questions...

To say that it is the 'lawyers' who are somehow getting in the way of stopping vandalism... I mean, is there any argument which you won't answer with a tried and true anti-Liberal trope?

Vandals are typically young and do not have much in the way of what you would call 'legal representation.' Exactly what roadblocks do you think the 'lawyers' for these folks have thrown up?

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
cjhsa
 
  1  
Fri 13 Jun, 2008 11:27 am
http://logicophilosophicus.org/cigar_news/images/gangster-churchill.jpg
0 Replies
 
okie
 
  1  
Fri 13 Jun, 2008 11:44 am
Cycloptichorn wrote:

Vandals are typically young and do not have much in the way of what you would call 'legal representation.' Exactly what roadblocks do you think the 'lawyers' for these folks have thrown up?

Cycloptichorn

Where have you been the last 50 years, cyclops? Laughing Laughing Laughing
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Fri 13 Jun, 2008 11:47 am
Answer the question, Okie, instead of dodging it.

If you can. See, I don't think you know what you are talking about on this issue.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
McGentrix
 
  1  
Fri 13 Jun, 2008 12:13 pm
Obama, Liberalism and the Challenge of Reform

By DAVID BROOKS

Is Barack Obama really a force for change, or is he just a traditional Democrat with a patina of postpartisan rhetoric?

That question is surprisingly hard to answer. When you listen to his best speeches, you see a person who really could herald a new political era. But when you look into his actual policies, you often find a list of orthodox liberal programs that no centrist or moderate conservative would have any reason to support.

To investigate this question, I looked more closely into Obama's education policies. Education is a good area to probe because Obama knows a lot about it, and because there are two education camps within the Democratic Party: a status quo camp and a reform camp. The two camps issued dueling strategy statements this week.

The status quo camp issued a statement organized by the Economic Policy Institute. This report argues that poverty and broad social factors drive high dropout rates and other bad outcomes. Schools alone can't combat that, so more money should go to health care programs, anti-poverty initiatives and after-school and pre-K programs. When it comes to improving schools, the essential message is that we need to spend more on what we're already doing: smaller class sizes, better instruction, better teacher training.

The reformist camp, by contrast, issued a statement through the Education Equality Project, signed by school chiefs like Joel Klein of New York, Michelle Rhee of Washington, Andres Alonso of Baltimore as well as Al Sharpton, Mayor Cory Booker of Newark and experts like Andrew Rotherham, the former Clinton official who now writes the Eduwonk blog.

The reformists also support after-school and pre-K initiatives. But they insist school reform alone can make a big difference, so they emphasize things the status quo camp doesn't: rigorous accountability and changing the fundamental structure of school systems.

Today's school systems aren't broken, the reformers argue. They were designed to meet the needs of teachers and adults first, and that's exactly what they are doing. It's time, though, to put the interests of students first.

The reformers want to change the structure of the system, not just spend more on the same old things. Tough decisions have to be made about who belongs in the classroom and who doesn't. Parents have to be given more control over education through public charter schools. Teacher contracts and state policies that keep ineffective teachers in the classroom need to be revised. Most importantly, accountability has to be rigorous and relentless. No Child Left Behind has its problems, but it has ushered in a data revolution, and hard data is the prerequisite for change.

The question of the week is: Which camp is Barack Obama in?

His advisers run the gamut, and the answer depends in part on what month it is. Back in October 2005, Obama gave a phenomenal education speech in which he seemed to ally with the reformers. Then, as the campaign heated up, he shifted over to pure union orthodoxy, ripping into accountability and testing in a speech in New Hampshire in a way that essentially gutted the reformist case. Then, on May 28 in Colorado, he delivered another major education speech in which he shifted back in a more ambiguous direction.

In that Colorado speech, he opened with a compelling indictment of America's school systems. Then he argued that the single most important factor in shaping student achievement is the quality of the teachers. This seemed to direct him in the reformist camp's direction, which has made them happy.

But when you look at the actual proposals Obama offers, he's doesn't really address the core issues. He's for the vast panoply of pre-K and after-school programs that most of us are for. But the crucial issues are: What do you do with teachers and administrators who are failing? How rigorously do you enforce accountability? Obama doesn't engage the thorny, substantive matters that separate the two camps.

He proposes dozens of programs to build on top of the current system, but it's not clear that he would challenge it. He's all carrot, no stick. He's politically astute ?- giving everybody the impression he's on their side ?- but substantively vague. Change just isn't that easy.

Obama endorses many good ideas and is more specific than the McCain campaign, which hasn't even reported for duty on education. But his education remarks give the impression of a candidate who wants to be for big change without actually incurring the political costs inherent in that enterprise.

In Washington, Mayor Adrian Fenty has taken big risks in supporting a tenacious reformer like Rhee. Would President Obama likewise take on a key Democratic interest group in order to promote real reform? We can hope. But so far, hope is all we can be sure of.
0 Replies
 
okie
 
  1  
Fri 13 Jun, 2008 12:23 pm
Libs and probably Obama, want to just throw more money at the failed educational system, not reform it. No change here except how much more money can be thrown in the direction of the NEA.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Fri 13 Jun, 2008 12:25 pm
You didn't answer the question, Okie

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Fri 13 Jun, 2008 12:28 pm
The "failed educational system" can be credited to Bush with his NCLB mandate without funding it. Over half of Hispanic and black children are dropping out of school, because the teachers are now emphasizing passing the state's standardized tests that proves nothing; it's failing the students who they should helping to educate.

There's also been a disturbing drop in math and science students during the same period; our students rank below most developed countries.

Just because Bush's daddy bought him his sheepskin from Yale and Harvard, not all parents can "afford" to buy their children's diplomas.
0 Replies
 
McGentrix
 
  1  
Fri 13 Jun, 2008 12:35 pm
If they are teaching the kids to pass the test and they still can't pass it, what does that say about both the teachers and the students? Especially considering the questions being tested. It's not obscure historical facts and ancient literature being tested, it's basic skills. Reading writing and arithmatic.

NCLB is not the problem. It's the solution to the broader problem which no amount of money will solve.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Fri 13 Jun, 2008 12:40 pm
McG wrote: If they are teaching the kids to pass the test and they still can't pass it, what does that say about both the teachers and the students?

Precisely! That's the reason why NCLB is a big failure.
0 Replies
 
McGentrix
 
  1  
Fri 13 Jun, 2008 12:41 pm
cicerone imposter wrote:
McG wrote: If they are teaching the kids to pass the test and they still can't pass it, what does that say about both the teachers and the students?

Precisely! That's the reason why NCLB is a big failure.


No.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Fri 13 Jun, 2008 12:41 pm
Local school boards should be in charge of their local schools, not the federal government.
0 Replies
 
cjhsa
 
  1  
Fri 13 Jun, 2008 12:41 pm
cicerone imposter wrote:
McG wrote: If they are teaching the kids to pass the test and they still can't pass it, what does that say about both the teachers and the students?

Precisely! That's the reason why NCLB is a big failure.


A. They test poorly (and some do)
B. The parents are irresponsible douchebags (say "liberal")
0 Replies
 
FreeDuck
 
  1  
Fri 13 Jun, 2008 12:42 pm
McGentrix wrote:
If they are teaching the kids to pass the test and they still can't pass it, what does that say about both the teachers and the students?


It says the students have lost interest because of the rote and passive curriculum and teachers are not trying to engage them because engagement and curiosity are not on the test.
0 Replies
 
 

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