McGentrix
 
  1  
Wed 21 May, 2008 11:43 am
That works.
0 Replies
 
okie
 
  1  
Wed 21 May, 2008 11:53 am
"What it says is that I'm not very well known in that part of the country," Obama said. "Sen. Clinton, I think, is much better known, coming from a nearby state of Arkansas. So it's not surprising that she would have an advantage in some of those states in the middle."

First there were 57 states, and now is he saying Arkansas is closer to Kentucky than Illinois?
0 Replies
 
Thomas
 
  1  
Wed 21 May, 2008 11:54 am
McGentrix, not Sozobe wrote:
Why would a single making 50k care about any of those things? Living single and making 50k those things should be taken care of as health insurance for a single person is very affordable, housing for a single person is cheap and he/she would not have kids worrying about college, would they?

(1) Good for you! Then you as a Republican have nothing to worry about this November, do you?

(2) One thing you forgot: By the same standard you apply in your post, singles making 50K also have enough income to comfortably pay an extra $1,500 in taxes. Add this to the list of non-issues they wouldn't care about.

(3) Although I happen to believe that 50k singles would care about universal health care, college for their kids, safety of their home ownership -- and, yes, higher taxes -- that's not the point I was making. I was simply saying that that's what the deal is. And that taxes by themselves only cover half the deal.
0 Replies
 
real life
 
  1  
Wed 21 May, 2008 03:46 pm
okie wrote:
"What it says is that I'm not very well known in that part of the country," Obama said. "Sen. Clinton, I think, is much better known, coming from a nearby state of Arkansas. So it's not surprising that she would have an advantage in some of those states in the middle."

First there were 57 states, and now is he saying Arkansas is closer to Kentucky than Illinois?


Maybe 'Present' Obama doesn't realize that Illinois borders Kentucky, but Arkansas doesn't.

Hint: hey Barry, Illinois your home state[/i][/u] is 'one of those states in the middle'.
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Wed 21 May, 2008 04:52 pm
woiyo wrote:
Cycloptichorn wrote:
You do realize that the taxes in America - while higher then that 25% you posit, at the upper ends - are at historical lows at this point? And that America has become the most prosperous and richest nation in the world, both in terms of gov't influence in the world at large AND in terms of net personal wealth - during these taxes which you claim are 'too high?'


No. You are wrong. Marginal Rates are NOT at "historical lows".

http://www.taxfoundation.org/files/federalindividualratehistory-20080107.pdf

You do the math, but here is the data.

A quick scan of that data shows that the top tax rate, in any case, is at historical lows. With just a five-year break during Bush Sr.'s administration, the top tax rate has either been higher (1932-1987 and 1993-2002), or the same but applied already from a lower income up (2003-2006) for the last 75 years.

Yep: taxes for the wealthiest people at the lowest rates in postwar history - there's the Bush family's Republicanism for ya.

You also dont address Cyclo's other argument here, of course: during the eras of its greatest economic progress in the last several generations of Americans, tax rates were significantly higher than they are now. Apparently didnt stop anyone from innovating, enterprising and creating wealth...
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Wed 21 May, 2008 04:58 pm
Thank you Nimh. I forgot to respond to that post.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
McGentrix
 
  1  
Wed 21 May, 2008 05:35 pm
You Can't Soak the Rich
By DAVID RANSON
Quote:
May 20, 2008; Page A23

Kurt Hauser is a San Francisco investment economist who, 15 years ago, published fresh and eye-opening data about the federal tax system. His findings imply that there are draconian constraints on the ability of tax-rate increases to generate fresh revenues. I think his discovery deserves to be called Hauser's Law, because it is as central to the economics of taxation as Boyle's Law is to the physics of gases. Yet economists and policy makers are barely aware of it.

Like science, economics advances as verifiable patterns are recognized and codified. But economics is in a far earlier stage of evolution than physics. Unfortunately, it is often poisoned by political wishful thinking, just as medieval science was poisoned by religious doctrine. Taxation is an important example.

The interactions among the myriad participants in a tax system are as impossible to unravel as are those of the molecules in a gas, and the effects of tax policies are speculative and highly contentious. Will increasing tax rates on the rich increase revenues, as Barack Obama hopes, or hold back the economy, as John McCain fears? Or both?

Mr. Hauser uncovered the means to answer these questions definitively. On this page in 1993, he stated that "No matter what the tax rates have been, in postwar America tax revenues have remained at about 19.5% of GDP." What a pity that his discovery has not been more widely disseminated.

http://s.wsj.net/public/resources/images/ED-AH556B_ranso_20080519194014.gif

The chart nearby, updating the evidence to 2007, confirms Hauser's Law. The federal tax "yield" (revenues divided by GDP) has remained close to 19.5%, even as the top tax bracket was brought down from 91% to the present 35%. This is what scientists call an "independence theorem," and it cuts the Gordian Knot of tax policy debate.

The data show that the tax yield has been independent of marginal tax rates over this period, but tax revenue is directly proportional to GDP. So if we want to increase tax revenue, we need to increase GDP.

What happens if we instead raise tax rates? Economists of all persuasions accept that a tax rate hike will reduce GDP, in which case Hauser's Law says it will also lower tax revenue. That's a highly inconvenient truth for redistributive tax policy, and it flies in the face of deeply felt beliefs about social justice. It would surely be unpopular today with those presidential candidates who plan to raise tax rates on the rich - if they knew about it.

Although Hauser's Law sounds like a restatement of the Laffer Curve (and Mr. Hauser did cite Arthur Laffer in his original article), it has independent validity. Because Mr. Laffer's curve is a theoretical insight, theoreticians find it easy to quibble with. Test cases, where the economy responds to a tax change, always lend themselves to many alternative explanations. Conventional economists, despite immense publicity, have yet to swallow the Laffer Curve. When it is mentioned at all by critics, it is often as an object of scorn.

Because Mr. Hauser's horizontal straight line is a simple fact, it is ultimately far more compelling. It also presents a major opportunity. It seems likely that the tax system could maintain a 19.5% yield with a top bracket even lower than 35%.

What makes Hauser's Law work? For supply-siders there is no mystery. As Mr. Hauser said: "Raising taxes encourages taxpayers to shift, hide and underreport income. . . . Higher taxes reduce the incentives to work, produce, invest and save, thereby dampening overall economic activity and job creation."

Putting it a different way, capital migrates away from regimes in which it is treated harshly, and toward regimes in which it is free to be invested profitably and safely. In this regard, the capital controlled by our richest citizens is especially tax-intolerant.

The economics of taxation will be moribund until economists accept and explain Hauser's Law. For progress to be made, they will have to face up to it, reconcile it with other facts, and incorporate it within the body of accepted knowledge. And if this requires overturning existing doctrine, then so be it.

Presidential candidates, instead of disputing how much more tax to impose on whom, would be better advised to come up with plans for increasing GDP while ridding the tax system of its wearying complexity. That would be a formula for success.
0 Replies
 
mysteryman
 
  1  
Wed 21 May, 2008 05:48 pm
Well this is interesting.

It seems that the Obama camp intentionally left out part of the story concerning his Portland rally that drew 75, 000 people.

It seems there was a free rock concert preceding the event, by a group called "The Decemberists".

If they had not performed first, I do wonder how many would have showed up.

http://newsbusters.org/blogs/robert-knight/2008/05/20/free-concert-popular-band-preceded-obama-s-big-rally
0 Replies
 
Brand X
 
  1  
Wed 21 May, 2008 05:52 pm
Well well. Isn't that interesting.
0 Replies
 
eoe
 
  1  
Wed 21 May, 2008 05:57 pm
They were hired to perform specifically for the rally.
0 Replies
 
mysteryman
 
  1  
Wed 21 May, 2008 05:58 pm
Forgive me for posting the entire article, but its an interesting read.
Its from Yahoo news...

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ibd/20080520/bs_ibd_ibd/20080520issues01

Quote:
Mideast: He views Iran's nuclear threat as "tiny." He'd meet with its leader, who is pledged to Israel's destruction. His adviser wants Israel to disarm. Clearly, Barack Obama is running for Jimmy Carter's second term.

If we've been particularly hard on Sen. Obama in recent days, it's because he's a gift that keeps on giving. He consistently demonstrates his lack of qualifications to be commander in chief based on experience, worldview and judgment.

His latest foray into dangerous naivete came while campaigning Sunday in Pendleton, Ore. He told the assembled multitude: "Iran? Cuba? Venezuela? -- these countries are tiny compared to the Soviet Union. They don't pose a threat to us the way the Soviet Union posed a threat to us."

He went on to defend his policy of "aggressive personal diplomacy" and called for "tough, disciplined and direct diplomacy. That's what Kennedy did. That'd what Reagan did."

Well, not quite.

Kennedy in his inaugural address pledged that "we shall pay any price, bear any burden, meet any hardship, support any friend, oppose any foe, in order to assure the survival and the success of liberty." That doesn't sound like Obama's policy on Iraq or anywhere else.

Yes, Kennedy talked to Khrushchev. But the Soviet leader came away from that summit so unimpressed with the young and untested American president that the following year he put nuclear missiles in Cuba targeted on American cities. Kennedy was forced to blockade Cuba and risk nuclear war.

We can't risk that with Iran. As John McCain points out, Iran, unlike the Soviet Union, is directly and daily involved in the killing of Americans through training of Iraqi insurgents and arming them with deadly improvised explosive devices. It is a state sponsor of terror that supports Hezbollah in its attempt to turn democratic Lebanon into an Islamofascist state.

Obama said that Reagan's "direct negotiation" with Gorbachev "over time allowed the kind of opening that brought down the Berlin Wall." What brought down the Berlin Wall, and the Soviet Union, was Reagan's unrelenting resistance to and confrontation with the "evil empire" based on his strategy of "we win, they lose." That was how Reagan "negotiated" with Gorbachev.

Yes, Reagan talked with Gorbachev. But he resisted the Soviet advance from Nicaragua to Grenada to Afghanistan. He put Pershing missiles in Europe. He launched the Strategic Defense Initiative and said "nyet" when Gorbachev wanted us to deal it away. When Reagan said, "Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall," the end of the Cold War already was a fait accompli.

Would Obama have done or said any of this?

Obama wants to talk with Iran. But the question he refuses to answer is what he'd tell Mahmoud Ahmadinejad. Obama dislikes being called an appeaser. But would he say to Iran: No deal unless you disown and disarm Hezbollah? We doubt it. More likely he'd sacrifice a country such as Lebanon to Tehran's ambitions in a modern-day Munich.

In his book, "Bomb Scare: The History and Future of Nuclear Weapons," Obama adviser Joseph Cirincione, director of nuclear policy at the center for American Progress, says he favors Israel giving up its nuclear weapons to ensure Iran doesn't obtain nukes. That's called appeasement.

Cirincione also was quoted in 2006 calling Israel's 1981 raid on Iraq's nuclear reactor a "failure." But the raid on Saddam Hussein's Osirak nuclear reactor was an unqualified success that kept the Iraqi dictator from having a nuclear weapon when he invaded Iran a decade later.

McCain said that Obama's view of Iran as a "tiny" threat, a view not shared by the Israelis, "betrays the depth of Sen. Obama's inexperience and reckless judgment. These are very serious deficiencies for an American president to possess." Indeed they are.

Obama responded during a campaign stop Monday in Billings, Mont.: "The Soviet Union had thousands of nuclear weapons, and Iran doesn't have one." And he'll probably believe that right up to the moment the phone rings at 3 a.m. and he hears: "Mr. President, Tel Aviv has been nuked."


The author isnt listed, but it does raise some interesting questions.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Wed 21 May, 2008 06:01 pm
Okay, 75,000 people: one person for every six residents of Portland to hear a band play and a politician speak.

A fact, most media didn't find interesting ...
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Wed 21 May, 2008 06:05 pm
mysteryman wrote:
Well this is interesting.

It seems that the Obama camp intentionally left out part of the story concerning his Portland rally that drew 75, 000 people.

It seems there was a free rock concert preceding the event, by a group called "The Decemberists".

If they had not performed first, I do wonder how many would have showed up.

http://newsbusters.org/blogs/robert-knight/2008/05/20/free-concert-popular-band-preceded-obama-s-big-rally


The Decemberists, a band who I am quite well acquainted with, put on great shows all the time - in front of crowds of 500-1000 people. The idea that dozens of thousands of folks showed up to see them that day, and just happened to catch Obama too, is laughable.

And even more laughable are the attempts of the Right Wing to tear him down, make him less, display that he is false. It's fear. Coming through loud and clear. You all know what's headed your way this Fall and desperately are looking for something which will change the calculus.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Wed 21 May, 2008 06:10 pm
mysteryman wrote:
Forgive me for posting the entire article, but its an interesting read.
Its from Yahoo news...

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ibd/20080520/bs_ibd_ibd/20080520issues01

Quote:
Mideast: He views Iran's nuclear threat as "tiny."


Wow, right off the first sentence in that article is a lie. Is that some kind of record? You might want to look up what Obama actually said -- it was posted in this thread just a couple of pages ago.


mysteryman wrote:
Well this is interesting.

It seems that the Obama camp intentionally left out part of the story concerning his Portland rally that drew 75, 000 people.

It seems there was a free rock concert preceding the event, by a group called "The Decemberists".


You think 75,000 people would have shown up to see The Decemberists play? Had you even heard of the Decemberists? Even their very best-selling album never broke the top 30 in the Billboard charts...

Seriously. I like that band, but these tens of thousands of people did not come to see an indie band play. Talk about grasping...
0 Replies
 
eoe
 
  1  
Wed 21 May, 2008 06:12 pm
Sad, isn't it?
0 Replies
 
mysteryman
 
  1  
Wed 21 May, 2008 06:12 pm
Cycloptichorn wrote:
mysteryman wrote:
Well this is interesting.

It seems that the Obama camp intentionally left out part of the story concerning his Portland rally that drew 75, 000 people.

It seems there was a free rock concert preceding the event, by a group called "The Decemberists".

If they had not performed first, I do wonder how many would have showed up.

http://newsbusters.org/blogs/robert-knight/2008/05/20/free-concert-popular-band-preceded-obama-s-big-rally


The Decemberists, a band who I am quite well acquainted with, put on great shows all the time - in front of crowds of 500-1000 people. The idea that dozens of thousands of folks showed up to see them that day, and just happened to catch Obama too, is laughable.

And even more laughable are the attempts of the Right Wing to tear him down, make him less, display that he is false. It's fear. Coming through loud and clear. You all know what's headed your way this Fall and desperately are looking for something which will change the calculus.

Cycloptichorn


Since I have never heard of The Decemberists (not being a rock fan), I have no idea how big the venues are they play in or how many they draw.
I just thought it interesting that the media didnt report that little fact.
After all, there is always the chance that more showed up BECAUSE of who the band was then would have showed up otherwise.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Wed 21 May, 2008 06:17 pm
mysteryman wrote:
Cycloptichorn wrote:
mysteryman wrote:
Well this is interesting.

It seems that the Obama camp intentionally left out part of the story concerning his Portland rally that drew 75, 000 people.

It seems there was a free rock concert preceding the event, by a group called "The Decemberists".

If they had not performed first, I do wonder how many would have showed up.

http://newsbusters.org/blogs/robert-knight/2008/05/20/free-concert-popular-band-preceded-obama-s-big-rally


The Decemberists, a band who I am quite well acquainted with, put on great shows all the time - in front of crowds of 500-1000 people. The idea that dozens of thousands of folks showed up to see them that day, and just happened to catch Obama too, is laughable.

And even more laughable are the attempts of the Right Wing to tear him down, make him less, display that he is false. It's fear. Coming through loud and clear. You all know what's headed your way this Fall and desperately are looking for something which will change the calculus.

Cycloptichorn


Since I have never heard of The Decemberists (not being a rock fan), I have no idea how big the venues are they play in or how many they draw.
I just thought it interesting that the media didnt report that little fact.
After all, there is always the chance that more showed up BECAUSE of who the band was then would have showed up otherwise.


The media didn't report on the rally much at all. So why they would report on the fact that a small band played on the same day, I have no idea.

You read some post on a right-wing site and decided to run with it, and that's fine, but your position is not tenable.

The speed with which Brand X bit on it is also, just delicious.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
Brand X
 
  1  
Wed 21 May, 2008 06:19 pm
I don't think that band could draw that many people on their own...nor could Obama in that setting.

But in that area where the left of the left dwell I can certainly see the buzz getting to fever pitch about that band and being free...the weather looked perfect too.

Still mostly misleading that it was an Obama draw.
0 Replies
 
snood
 
  1  
Wed 21 May, 2008 06:21 pm
It really is very sad, eoe.
0 Replies
 
dyslexia
 
  1  
Wed 21 May, 2008 06:22 pm
yes indeed, It is quite fascinating to see that Obama had a band precede a campaign speech. Probably never happened before in america; might be a violation of campaign rules unless the media exposes the bass guitar player as a communist/terrorist and the drummer as an atheist. Do you think, Mysteryman, there might have been drugs in use as Obama was speaking?
0 Replies
 
 

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