Obama '08?

TKO You don't understand that God created America for white men to rule.

0 Replies

Diest TKO wrote:

Before my suggestions some observations.

1) You not I refer to assimilation. This mind-set is has many flaws in it. It is to say, come to the US, and when you get here, take off all your clothes. Shed your culture and adopt ours. We aren't interested in letting you influence our culture. This is a one way street.

2) The challenges that Europeans face with integrating into the United States certainly exist, but show me where in our present day nation you see a systemic political what-do-we-do-about-it when more white Christians enter the country. I think that it's about protecting the status quo. See also Chinese Immigration act of 1885. At the time, the thoughts were that if the Chinese immigration wasn't curved, that the country would become primarily Asian.

My suggestions? Stop trying to make the American culture rigid and and pre-defined. When you stop and think about it, why is it such a big deal that we have two strong presidential candidates that are black and female respectively? There just humans right? Why is race and gender even worth talking about? Because in the US, it's not the status quo. Why does the US have a status quo? doesn't it seem to go against what the country inherently stand for?

The Asian vote DOES effect things important to me. Your attitude only illustrates the flaws in the foundation of your beliefs.

If you hold your political beliefs to be sound then that means (or should mean) that you believe your ideas do not just benefit you but instead benefit all. If you don't care about th Asian, Hispanic, etc vote, then it's basically a lame way of saying.

"Screw you."

That's fine. I only expect you to vote in your own interests. I just don't see how you can pretend to have the footing to tell anyone else how to vote etc.

T
K
O

With respect to paragraphs #1 & #2, I think your knowledge of the controversies surrounding European immigration during the late 19th century is seriously deficient. You need to educate yourself a bit more on the real experiences of others if you wish to be heard now.

I don't believe our culture is, or should be, rigid as you say. Indeed in the post to which you apparently object, I made repeated specific references to the evolution of our common culture under the continuing influence of successive waves of immigrants. You are simply off base on this.

I don't know if there is such a thing as "the Asian vote" here. In the first place we have large numbers of immigrants here from the Philippines, China, India, Cambodia, Indonesia, Vietnam and other very diverse places who came here at different times and in distinct waves. I doubt that they are the monolithic group that you suggest, or that you can properly speak for all of them. Frankly, I have no knowledge of the statistics of their voting patterns and no particular interest in learning about it. I prefer to consider them as individual people.

The same is true of "Hispanics" who in fact are a very diverse collection of people, united only by a common language. Americans of Cuban origin are very different (as a group) than those from Puerto Rico, Mexico, El Salvador or others. Confining them all to a single group is merely sloppy thinking.

In all of these cases I prefer to deal with group identities only to the extent that such things emerge as issues before us - issues that are usually the result of human misunderstandings, other failings and unresolved issues attendant to the assimilation process. In general it is better for everyone if we approach each other as individual human beings, and put group identities in a secondary place.

I haven't said "screw you" to anyone here (though I am becoming increasingly tempted), and I haven't told anyone how they should vote - except for suggesting that it is probably better to look at the person rather than focusing on things like race. Moreover, I don't claim to "have the footing" to tell anyone else how to vote.

You appear to be looking for conflict where none exists. This is fairly unproductive behavior and I wonder why you persist in it.

0 Replies

georgeob1 wrote:

Diest TKO wrote:
Before my suggestions some observations.

1) You not I refer to assimilation. This mind-set is has many flaws in it. It is to say, come to the US, and when you get here, take off all your clothes. Shed your culture and adopt ours. We aren't interested in letting you influence our culture. This is a one way street.

2) The challenges that Europeans face with integrating into the United States certainly exist, but show me where in our present day nation you see a systemic political what-do-we-do-about-it when more white Christians enter the country. I think that it's about protecting the status quo. See also Chinese Immigration act of 1885. At the time, the thoughts were that if the Chinese immigration wasn't curved, that the country would become primarily Asian.

My suggestions? Stop trying to make the American culture rigid and and pre-defined. When you stop and think about it, why is it such a big deal that we have two strong presidential candidates that are black and female respectively? There just humans right? Why is race and gender even worth talking about? Because in the US, it's not the status quo. Why does the US have a status quo? doesn't it seem to go against what the country inherently stand for?

The Asian vote DOES effect things important to me. Your attitude only illustrates the flaws in the foundation of your beliefs.

If you hold your political beliefs to be sound then that means (or should mean) that you believe your ideas do not just benefit you but instead benefit all. If you don't care about th Asian, Hispanic, etc vote, then it's basically a lame way of saying.

"Screw you."

That's fine. I only expect you to vote in your own interests. I just don't see how you can pretend to have the footing to tell anyone else how to vote etc.

T
K
O

With respect to paragraphs #1 & #2, I think your knowledge of the controversies surrounding European immigration during the late 19th century is seriously deficient. You need to educate yourself a bit more on the real experiences of others if you wish to be heard now.

blah blah blah. You're dismissive nature is boring. On top of that you assume too much about my knowledge base.

georgeob1 wrote:

I don't believe our culture is, or should be, rigid as you say. Indeed in the post to which you apparently object, I made repeated specific references to the evolution of our common culture under the continuing influence of successive waves of immigrants. You are simply off base on this.

Prove to me that the US is being progressive with it's identity, and then prove to me that the republican party isn't putting up hurdles.

georgeob1 wrote:

I don't know if there is such a thing as "the Asian vote" here. In the first place we have large numbers of immigrants here from the Philippines, China, India, Cambodia, Indonesia, Vietnam and other very diverse places who came here at different times and in distinct waves. I doubt that they are the monolithic group that you suggest, or that you can properly speak for all of them. Frankly, I have no knowledge of the statistics of their voting patterns and no particular interest in learning about it. I prefer to consider them as individual people.

Why can't you consider blacks and white as individual voters then? I make no suggestion that the asian vote is either monolithic nor homogeneous, only that it exists and is just as important as any other vote in the country.

georgeob1 wrote:

The same is true of "Hispanics" who in fact are a very diverse collection of people, united only by a common language. Americans of Cuban origin are very different (as a group) than those from Puerto Rico, Mexico, El Salvador or others. Confining them all to a single group is merely sloppy thinking.

I'm not engaged in group think, I'm just trying to invite them to the table. Whether you can admit it or not, the issue of race is treated as being exclusively black and white.

georgeob1 wrote:

In all of these cases I prefer to deal with group identities only to the extent that such things emerge as issues before us - issues that are usually the result of human misunderstandings, other failings and unresolved issues attendant to the assimilation process. In general it is better for everyone if we approach each other as individual human beings, and put group identities in a secondary place.

Prove to me that assimilation is a good idea. If American culture isn't the mean of it's citizens diverse values and backgrounds then we've failed the mission. What we have now that needs to change is an indentity that is being treated as if it was stock. The majority stock holder is deciding what the culture is, and while the remainder of stock is divided up over smaller groups the culture itself is not representative of those minority shareholders.

georgeob1 wrote:

I haven't said "screw you" to anyone here (though I am becoming increasingly tempted), and I haven't told anyone how they should vote - except for suggesting that it is probably better to look at the person rather than focusing on things like race. Moreover, I don't claim to "have the footing" to tell anyone else how to vote.

Good to know you understand where you're standing.

georgeob1 wrote:

You appear to be looking for conflict where none exists. This is fairly unproductive behavior and I wonder why you persist in it.

You appear to be looking away from the conflict you wish didn't exist. I thought that liberals were the idealistic ones?

T
K
O

0 Replies

Not a Soccer Mom wrote:

TKO You don't understand that God created America for white men to rule.

Welcome to A2K NaSM, I wish you were wrong.

T
K
O

0 Replies

Thank you, well a lot of people do think that way but most of them will be dying out in the next twenty years (or be too old to have any influence)

Quote:

blah blah blah. You're dismissive nature is boring. On top of that you assume too much about my knowledge base.

Well you are an Asian, I am a woman, he apparently is a white man so naturally he knows more than we do.

The great thing is that we are about to elect our first African-American president. The times, they are a changin'.

0 Replies

Not a Soccer Mom & Diest -- You are both swinging your fists at the air, looking for a fight in the absence of any stated issues or even expressed disagreement. OK by me if you derive some satisfaction from this curious, unproductive behavior, but I can see no reason for it, and certainly no reason why you should either address it to me or use it in reference to me.

I did not defend the internment of the Japanese in 1942 - it was an unjust event, one of many shortcomings of a country that stated such high aspirations for itself. However, It wasn't nearly as bad - not even comparable - to the horrors the army of Japan was then visiting on the Chinese, the Vietnamese and the Philippinos. And these things helped prompt the irrational fears that set the internment in motion.

I note that Diest himself never experienced any of these injustices - he is instead reliving the experiences of his grandparents. What then is his point?

Soccer Mom appears to be looking hard for contradictions wherever she can find them. What exactly is your point? I take it you harbor some resentment for white males. How do you justify such a broad mindless prejudice??

0 Replies

georgeob1 wrote:

I did not defend the internment of the Japanese in 1942 - it was an unjust event, one of many shortcomings of a country that stated such high aspirations for itself. However, It wasn't nearly as bad - not even comparable - to the horrors the army of Japan was then visiting on the Chinese, the Vietnamese and the Philippinos. And these things helped prompt the irrational fears that set the internment in motion.

I'll give you one post to make this relevant to race relations in the US. Otherwise you're just being inflammatory and ignorant. One post to make your case on how what the Japanese did is relavant.

georgeob1 wrote:

I note that Diest himself never experienced any of these injustices - he is instead reliving the experiences of his grandparents. What then is his point?

I only interjected my family's experience because the topic was brought up and you seemed to think that it had nothing to to with immigrants naturalizing or as you put it "assimilating."

Don't pretend to know what I have experienced in my life.

T
K
O

0 Replies

Diest, I believe you have an inadequate appreciation of your own limitations. You repeatedly reveal serious gaps in your understanding of otherwise well-known events and facts, and engage in useless disputes over non-existant issues. This kind of argumentative behavior isn't likely to do you much good in life, and I hope you can get over it.

The truth is I have made no assumptions about your "knowledge base": instead you yourself have offered ample evidence of its limitations.

I want to make clear what I have already clearly stated and what you inexplicably appear to be unable to grasp --- I do not believe people should make their voting decisions on issues like race, and I believe it is unfortunate when such voting patterns emerge: unfortunate, because it is wrong in itself and it usually begets only a similarly wrongful response on the other side. I don't "exclude" other racial groups from any table, because I believe their members should be looked on as individuals and not by any such group label.

You have responded to these repeated assertions with mindless, unsupported accusations of prejudice that are self-contradictory in the extreme (first you resent the treatment of your grandparents as a separate group; next you express resentment because others apparently don't give primacy to that same group identity "at the table"; then you assert that assimilation and the adoption of a common culture is not in your opinion a desirable goal; and finally castigate Whites for (I assume ) discrimination).

You punctuate your postings with wierd demands you are not entitled to make and unable to enforce; "I'll give you one post to..." ; "Prove to me that...". stc.

All this suggests a confused mind preoccupied with a good deal of misplaced aggression. Your problem, not mine.

0 Replies

I was giving you the benefit of the doubt ob1. You chose to bring up the acts of a completely different country when discussion was circulating around the naturalization of different groups of immigrants. It's obvious that the acts of the Japan are not relevant to the discussion of the US.

If you can't see the difference in European immigrants experience in the US as opposed to non-whites, it's not me who is limited.

Yes "prove it to me." If you can't back up your ideas then don't say them. Further, if you don't plan on proving it, don't point fingers at me and claim that my assertions are unsupported.

George, I don't know if you stand for anything. Anything other than your own personal struggle to never let yourself be cornered.

You say that you don't make a claim about my knowledge base, yet your posts are here for anyone to read. You make claims about my knowledge of 1900s European immigration and you assume my relation to racial strife is felt only second hand. I'd rather be belittled than lied to. You do in fact make assumptions on my knowledge base.

If you are going to say that my ideas are...

limited
useless
mindless
self-contradictory

...then you'd better back it up. Prove it. And if you are going to prove it, stop it with the strawman.

Your posts address perhaps 25% of what I say, 70% of what I don't say and then it's garnished with 5% about what I can understand because of my age/experience/etc. My fists may be in the air, but your head is buried in the dirt.

My favorite trick of yours is to simply state how you have clearly done/established/defended something. It's crap.

T
K
O

0 Replies

Final note: I apologize to the other readers of this thread. A lot of Obama related news happened last night, and I'm sorry you have to read through the race stuff. It's relevant to politics, but perhaps it deserved it's own thread.

One way I know I am limited is in my ability to restrain my passion in the face of ignorance. I'm working on it.

T
K
Oyasuminasai

0 Replies

rabel22 wrote:

Teeneyboone
How about an address for your post so I can read it myself.

Sorry about that; I thought I had. I have to go back to the nytimes.com. There is a catalog/archive of the articles, okay? Be back!
S.
Cool

0 Replies

Here's one link to the theory that aids was created in a laboratory:

http://www.africa.upenn.edu/Urgent_Action/AIDS_Contract.html

and this one, for starters!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AIDS_conspiracy_theories

There are others, but this is but 2 of many. I don't make this stuff up!
I investigated this years ago, after hearing a lecture during a Black History Month lecture, given by Dick Gregory, in the late 80's. I had never heard of this theory, until HE mentioned it in his talk on how Blacks should empower and safeguard themselves against government intrusion.
It had long been thought that Blacks were being used for illegal experiments, for different diseases, but when the cover was blown off the Iexperiment at Tuskegee Institute, in the labs at Aberdeen, Md., where most clandestine experiments are funded by the US government, on germ warfare and other ways, like the gas, Sarrin, (don't know if this is the correct spelling), was used in the subways of NY, unbeknownst to the users of the subway system. Now, I can only write on what I've heard and investigated through this internet.

I don't work for, are is interested in, clandestine operations of the US government, but much has been chronicled over the decades on similar operations. The stories haven't varied much over the decades, but new information on whether it was a lone Frenchmen, who had sex in Africa, heaven forbid, somehow got transferred to african monkeys, go figure, and wound up in the US! Sounded farfetched to me, like a crazed person wrote this crap. With me, anything's possible, as far as I know.

If a man can go to the moon, the sky's the limit, so I don't discount anything. A lot of undercover experimentations are done with our tax dollars and we are lulled into a sense of security by catch phrases! I an still a sucker for American jingoisms, because I want to believe that this is basically a good country, with good people in it; that everyone, given a decent chance, can make it here! That we are inherently free, whatever free, is. I was taught to love and honor this country! A country that has treated my people to a history of enslavement! Freedom for everyone, but US! So, if I hear theories of this type, why should I sit on my hands?

Okay, here's 2 links. Don't know if they are true or fiction. Believe what you want, all you "doubting Thomases", out there!

Cool

0 Replies

Damn, I wish I could have stayed up last night... anyone see Obama's speech? How was it?

This seems to have actually finally maybe have been a game-changer, instead of the slow creep we've had. Hillary on Friday:

Quote:

Today, Clinton stressed the importance of the North Carolina contest.

"This primary election on Tuesday is a game changer. This is going to make a huge difference in what happens going forward. The entire country - probably even a lot of the world is looking to see what North Carolina decides."

http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalradar/2008/05/clinton-tuesday.html

0 Replies

Obama's North Carolina Victory Speech

I didn't really watch it so I don't have an impression of how it went over or the tone he took yet.

0 Replies

Exit polls suggest Limbaugh minions turned out for Clinton link

0 Replies

The whole Limbaugh factor in this compaign has been so disheartening in the way it reveals how unethical our elections cycles have become. Why isn't there something we can do about it?

0 Replies

revel wrote:

The whole Limbaugh factor in this compaign has been so disheartening in the way it reveals how unethical our elections cycles have become. Why isn't there something we can do about it?

This sort of thing is going to become more popular as more and more states switch over to open primaries. The obvious solution is to revert to the closed primary system - which has some drawbacks as well...

0 Replies

revel wrote:

The whole Limbaugh factor in this compaign has been so disheartening in the way it reveals how unethical our elections cycles have become. Why isn't there something we can do about it?

What is unethical about it?

0 Replies

sozobe wrote:

This seems to have actually finally maybe have been a game-changer, instead of the slow creep we've had. Hillary on Friday:

Quote:
Today, Clinton stressed the importance of the North Carolina contest.

"This primary election on Tuesday is a game changer. This is going to make a huge difference in what happens going forward. The entire country - probably even a lot of the world is looking to see what North Carolina decides."

http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalradar/2008/05/clinton-tuesday.html

Yeah, and now the game has changed. Now the game is, "Why can't Florida and Michigan count? It's not fair! Waah, waah, waah!!!"

Be prepared to hear that desperate bullshit whine for the next few weeks.

0 Replies

kickycan wrote:

sozobe wrote:
This seems to have actually finally maybe have been a game-changer, instead of the slow creep we've had. Hillary on Friday:

Quote:
Today, Clinton stressed the importance of the North Carolina contest.

"This primary election on Tuesday is a game changer. This is going to make a huge difference in what happens going forward. The entire country - probably even a lot of the world is looking to see what North Carolina decides."

http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalradar/2008/05/clinton-tuesday.html

Yeah, and now the game has changed. Now the game is, "Why can't Florida and Michigan count? It's not fair! Waah, waah, waah!!!"

Be prepared to hear that desperate bullshit whine for the next few weeks.

If these numbers are correct, Mrs. Bill Clinton can not even make that BS argument. I would love to see her try though!

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2008/president/democratic_vote_count.html

2008 Democratic Popular Vote

Popular Vote Count

State Date Obama Clinton Spread
Popular Vote Total 15,928,114 49.6% 15,216,337 47.3% Obama +711,777 +2.3%

Estimate w/IA, NV, ME, WA* 16,262,198 49.6% 15,440,199 47.1% Obama +821,999 +2.5%

Popular Vote (w/FL) 16,504,328 48.7% 16,087,323 47.5% Obama +417,005 +1.2%

Estimate w/IA, NV, ME, WA* 16,838,412 48.8% 16,311,185 47.2% Obama +527,227 +1.6%

Popular Vote (w/FL & MI)** 16,504,328 47.9% 16,415,632 47.6% Obama +88,696 +0.26%

0 Replies

Related Topics

Quick Links

My Account

able2know