My last "second that" post was in reply to nimh's asking Onyx back soon...
onyx I'm always glad to see you too....
onyxelle wrote:First, I teach my children that everyone is entitled to his or her own opinion. Even Rev. Wright.
Second, I teach my children what I believe I right and is wrong and if they hear a message or a phrase or belief that we disagree with as parents, we let them know we disagree and we let them know why.
"subjecting" them sounds like I'd be allowing them to hear whatever someone says and let them go on not understanding the context of what was said and why I agree or disagree with it. That's not so. Everything my girls here is an opportunity for them to learn and grow their minds, and this is no different.
In this, they're aware of the Rev. Wright issue, and some of his opinions and we've all discussed it as a family. They're following the whole politcal race as we are, and ask questions about everything they hear and read about it.
For what it's worth, most churches that I'm aware of have a childrens church (at least the ones I've been to, black or white) and the children don't hear the main sermon anyway.
Both of Obama's children are under 10 years old.
I cannot imagine any parent taking their young children to a church where Jeremiah Wright preaches his brand of racial hatred and anti-American garbage.
Don't tell me you are going to sit down with a very young child and say:
'you know honey, I know that Pastor Wright says the government created AIDS to kill the black people, but let's remember that it's just his opinion.'
or
'now kids, I know that Pastor Wright says that America and al-Qaeda do the same things just under a different flag, but he is just sharing his belief with us.'
Do you seriously think that a US Senator (or anyone) is showing good judgement and acting responsibly by raising his children under such teaching?
Several observations and comments:
Disagreeing with one's pastor on interpretation of scripture is not quite the same as not tolerating crass, ignorant and hateful rants from the pulpit.
Being pro-choice in a Catholic church is not an apt analogy for Obama in a church led by Wright.
Returning every Sunday,for two decades, to a church where the minister makes crude and hateful comments about homosexuals, African-American society, and big nosed Italians is an apt analogy. Somehow I doubt that those who find it so easy to understand Obama's tolerance of Wright, would be so understanding of John McCain attending a church for 20 years where the pastor regularly launched homophobic, sexist, and embarassingly ignorant diatribes.
Interesting to see the prior apologists for Wright (It's a Black Church thing. You don't get it because you don't get the culture. It was a hip shake, not a sexual gyration) lining up to express their disgust with him, now that their guy Obama has finally decided to throw him under the bus.
Why is Wright doing this? First of all, he is Jerimiah Wright. It is totally in keeping with his personality to lash out at anyone who he believes is trying to oppress him. There was no reason to believe he would remain silent. It was amazing he maintained silence as long as he did. Remaining silent, to Wright, is surrender, and that is not something he is willing to contemplate. Remaining silent is to acknowledge that an Uppity N*gger can be silenced by The Man.
As much as I find him, in many ways, pathetic and repulsive, I have some measure of respect for his ferocity and his pride. It would be utterly amazing, and in some way sad, to hear Wright apologize for anything he has said.
The man is not evil incarnate. He is not a traitor or the black equivalent of a Klansman. He is a very angry, very insecure man who discovered that christian ministery could provide him with a.source of respect, a platform upon which to speak, and a means through which he might realize the generous side of his nature.
He has been had by Obama and he now knows it.That's why he said some of the things he said Monday that insinuated Obama talks from both sides of his mouth.
It's also why he will not remain silent, and why Obama made a point today of saying that he cannot control what Wright will say in the future.
Unless Wright can overcome the roiling anger within (and perhaps he can), he will be speaking again and he will not be kind to Obama.
Today's Obama press conference was a pre-emptive strike, but I doubt it was enough to erradicate the foe.
but i thought this wright thing was just a bump in the road... of no consequence and soon to be forgotten?
sorry, can't help it...
snood wrote:My last "second that" post was in reply to nimh's asking Onyx back soon...
Thank God you clarified that!
I was about to surmise....well, that's better left unsaid.
Suffice to say you cleared away all the doubts so many of us had.
Thanks.
chicagotribune.com
By Margaret Ramirez | Tribune reporter
February 11, 2008
In a stirring sermon that weaved the hopefulness of past African generations with dreams for the future, Rev. Jeremiah Wright Jr. preached his final sermon Sunday at Trinity United Church of Christ, leaving a 36-year legacy as pastor and activist in the black community.
Despite the howl of a bitter wind, hundreds packed into Trinity, 400 West 95th Street, to hear Wright, 66, a fiery speaker, preach at the church one last time. Wright had served as spiritual mentor to Sen. Barack Obama. In the late 1980s, Obama joined Trinity and would later base his historic speech at the 2004 Democratic National Convention on a Wright sermon called "Audacity to Hope."
Obama was one of the thousands who joined Trinity under Wright's leadership. When Wright became Trinity's pastor in 1972, the church had 85 members. Today, Trinity has a congregation of 8,500, with more than 80 ministries, making it one of the largest and most influential black churches in the nation.
Foxfyre wrote:I've heard it, read it, and looking at it all closely Revel. I've listened to and read Jeremiah Wright sermons until my eyes crossed. I watched the Moyers interview twice. I re-read Obama's 'race speech'. I listened to the National Press Club speech this week.
And none of that helps Obama with those who still have questions about him any more than you would believe a Republican who claimed he didn't agree with the message of his church and pastor when he had been an active member for 20+ years.
Jeremiah Wright is a problem for Obama and currently seems to be intentionally trying to be a problem for Obama.
It is a stretch but here and there are suggestions that Jeremiah Wright may be deliberating trying to hurt Obama for criticizing the message and/or because he doesn't want Obama elected President. After all it's tougher to preach a message of "rich white people keeping a brother down" when that brother is elected President of the United States.
You already had your mind made up before this dust up about his pastor came up, so now you can whine about why you can't vote for him! Sp DON'T already!
real life, Rev. Wright would say you may not have read Horowitz's book as he said at the Press Club. I think Wright would not say what he says about AIDS if the DOD had not requested and received an appropriation from Congress to develope a biological weapon that would attack and destroy the human immune system. Wright has made no accusations without enough evidence to at least raise legit questions. Americans seem horrified by the history Wright brings up. What stands out to me is this happens even while we're fighting an unjust, unneeded war of choice in Iraq. A war built on lies. A war of which nearly 6 out of 10 Americans say Bushie deliberately lied us into. A war in which up to a million are dead and countless maimed. But truely it wasn't really Bushie who lied us into war. There are higher powers. It was Judith Miller and the New York Times who spread Bushie's lies and Tim Russert, Wolf Blixer, Fox, NBC, ABC, CBS who followed suit. Of course they would crucify a guy like Wright who has courage enough to stand up to that and speak truth. They cant stand up to the truth Wright brings to the table. No more than than they could tolerate MLK calling America the, greatest purveyor of violence on earth" during the Vietnam war. America has never faced up to Vietnam which was built on lies and dont appear to be ready to face up to the horrors of an Iraq war fought for no good reason and built on lies. There was no outcry when Hillary claimed we brought freedom to Iraq when the truth is we brought massive death and destruction to Iraq. Rev. Wright is a threat to those who have abused their authority and betrayed Americas into war. His God daughter just got deployed to Iraq. Not Bushie's or Cheney's God daughter. The networks will ignore that. They'll continue in their complicity in American atrocities and instead attack the Marine Wright who fights for America in the only way that could truely set us free. By speaking truth to a superpower long ago run amok.
Finn dAbuzz wrote:Several observations and comments:
Disagreeing with one's pastor on interpretation of scripture is not quite the same as not tolerating crass, ignorant and hateful rants from the pulpit.
Being pro-choice in a Catholic church is not an apt analogy for Obama in a church led by Wright.
Returning every Sunday,for two decades, to a church where the minister makes crude and hateful comments about homosexuals, African-American society, and big nosed Italians is an apt analogy. Somehow I doubt that those who find it so easy to understand Obama's tolerance of Wright, would be so understanding of John McCain attending a church for 20 years where the pastor regularly launched homophobic, sexist, and embarassingly ignorant diatribes.
Interesting to see the prior apologists for Wright (It's a Black Church thing. You don't get it because you don't get the culture. It was a hip shake, not a sexual gyration) lining up to express their disgust with him, now that their guy Obama has finally decided to throw him under the bus.
Why is Wright doing this? First of all, he is Jerimiah Wright. It is totally in keeping with his personality to lash out at anyone who he believes is trying to oppress him. There was no reason to believe he would remain silent. It was amazing he maintained silence as long as he did. Remaining silent, to Wright, is surrender, and that is not something he is willing to contemplate. Remaining silent is to acknowledge that an Uppity N*gger can be silenced by The Man.
As much as I find him, in many ways, pathetic and repulsive, I have some measure of respect for his ferocity and his pride. It would be utterly amazing, and in some way sad, to hear Wright apologize for anything he has said.
The man is not evil incarnate. He is not a traitor or the black equivalent of a Klansman. He is a very angry, very insecure man who discovered that christian ministery could provide him with a.source of respect, a platform upon which to speak, and a means through which he might realize the generous side of his nature.
He has been had by Obama and he now knows it.That's why he said some of the things he said Monday that insinuated Obama talks from both sides of his mouth.
It's also why he will not remain silent, and why Obama made a point today of saying that he cannot control what Wright will say in the future.
Unless Wright can overcome the roiling anger within (and perhaps he can), he will be speaking again and he will not be kind to Obama.
Today's Obama press conference was a pre-emptive strike, but I doubt it was enough to erradicate the foe.
I don't know when Wright became spokesperson for ALL Black people! He is NOT! Just as all Whites are not Protestant, neither are Blacks! He incorrectly spoke! All Blacks aren't Protestant! I answered that several pages ago! I'm Roman Catholic and I know Blacks who are Methodists, Episcopalians, Agnostic and non-believers!
teenyboone wrote:You already had your mind made up before this dust up about his pastor came up, so now you can whine about why you can't vote for him!
Yep, sums it up really...
Finn dAbuzz wrote:Thank God you clarified that!
I was about to surmise....well, that's better left unsaid.
Suffice to say you cleared away all the doubts so many of us had.
Thanks.
Good God, why do you need to be such an ass?
Real life:
Of course no explanation could be as simplistic as that, but whether you believe it or not has no bearing on what i would or wouldn't do with my child. And if I have to explain to them why they've read some of the things that have been said about black people by white racists, I'm certainly obligated to explain why black people would say some of the things he said.
If you think that makes me a bad parent, well....quite honestly it doesn't matter. It's your ... opinion
And...I haven't been at Trinity every sunday for the past 20 years to hear Rev Wright say those things in each sermon, have you?
Finn:
nevermind.
nimh wrote:Finn:
Finn dAbuzz wrote:Returning every Sunday,for two decades, to a church where the minister makes crude and hateful comments about homosexuals
David Mendell:
Quote:Wright remains a maverick among Chicago's vast assortment of black preachers. He will question Scripture when he feels it forsakes common sense; he is an ardent foe of mandatory school prayer; and he is a staunch advocate for homosexual rights, which is almost unheard-of among African-American ministers. Gay and lesbian couples, with hands clasped, can be spotted in Trinity's pews each Sunday.
This is not at all unusual in any UCC congregation most of which also ordain gay clergy, participate in anti-war protests, and are pro-illegal immigration. Jeremiah Wright's anti-American racist message is not typical of your typical UCC congregation, however, and probably would not be tolerated in any UCC congregations other than TUCC.
Foxfyre, I see nothing anti-American or racist in what Wright has said in the last few days. I watched Moyers, the NAACP and Press Club speeches and saw a man bent on reconciliation. Barack can talk of change and Hillary can pretend we brought freedom to Iraq and McCain can sing bomb bomb bomb Iran. Rev. Wright knows only facing up to the cold, hard truth can ever set us free. Obama will make no significant change without embracing the truth Rev. Wright talks about. Without admitting how badly betrayed we have been for generations we'll be doomed to repeating the history of betrayal and the next generation will be lied into a needless war. The Gulf of Tonkin lies, the WMD lies any lies are better than facing up to the truth. We seem to be much more willing to kill innocent people and be killed in needless wars than to admit we simply are not a moral force but a rogue superpower that will go to war for no good reason. God damn that please otherwise there's no escape from the madness that awaits our next generation.
I do Blueflame. And, according to Barack Obama earlier today, so does he.
Foxfyre, Obama was doing what he had to do politically. Hillary did the same when she said we brought freedom to Iraq and McCain when he sings bomb Iran. In my lifetime America has killed many. many millions in wars of choice built on lies. Many more millions than any other nation. We've armed and funded madmen like Saddam, bin Laden, Pol Pot and many others. The human race has suffered immensely due to American policy. But America's merchants of war have profitted immensely. Show me where what I said in this post is wrong.
blueflame1 wrote:Foxfyre, Obama was doing what he had to do politically. Hillary did the same when she said we brought freedom to Iraq and McCain when he sings bomb Iran. In my lifetime America has killed many. many millions in wars of choice built on lies. Many more millions than any other nation. We've armed and funded madmen like Saddam, bin Laden, Pol Pot and many others. The human race has suffered immensely due to American policy. But America's merchants of war have profitted immensely. Show me where what I said in this post is wrong.
So you're saying that Obama is now denouncing Wright out of political expediency? That he doesn't really mean it?
If that catches on it sure is good news for Hillary.
And McCain.
I don't actually think it was just politically motivated. I think Obama was personally offended and upset at what Wright did yesterday (was it just yesterday?) I think that the things that attracted Obama to Wright were pretty well undermined by what Wright has been doing lately -- the stuff Obama said today about not being able to do anything constructive with this. It's just plain DEstructive.
Obama liked the inclusive, hopeful, nuanced stuff in Wright -- and lately Wright has been divisive, negative, and extremist.
