Foxfyre
 
  1  
Tue 29 Apr, 2008 07:43 am
nimh wrote:
Diest TKO wrote:
Finn - It has been asked before in this thread, and I'd like ot hear your response.

"Because of Rev Wright's influence, what practical fears do you have about what Obama would do in office?"

Answer specifically about what types of policies you are affraid of that would be directly related to Rev Wright.

Now there's a good question that, throughout all this pompous indignation, I havent seen one conservative poster answer... good luck with that.


Then you haven't read my take on it. I don't see it as a matter of fear at all. I see it as a matter of what one aesthetically wants in a President.

I think a lot of Americans don't want a BLACK president who sees America as Jeremiah Wright seems to see it and who apparently condoned that for more than 20 years. They don't want an angry black man for President.

I think a lot of Americans want a president who loves his country, sees it as basically good, and intends to build from that point of view to make it better. I think very few Americans have any problem with that President being a black man.

I think Obama has yet to convince some folks which one of these he actually is.
0 Replies
 
revel
 
  1  
Tue 29 Apr, 2008 07:54 am
Miller wrote:
FreeDuck wrote:
I agree that it's the media narrative that's troubling.


It's the backlash that's about to come, that's troubling... Cool


I admit i am confused, backlash from what exactly that is about to come?
0 Replies
 
snood
 
  1  
Tue 29 Apr, 2008 07:59 am
revel wrote:
Miller wrote:
FreeDuck wrote:
I agree that it's the media narrative that's troubling.


It's the backlash that's about to come, that's troubling... Cool


I admit i am confused, backlash from what exactly that is about to come?


Well it is pretty vague, but seeing as we're dealing with Miller here...

She prolly means "Obama's fixing to get his comeuppance, and how!!"
0 Replies
 
Thomas
 
  1  
Tue 29 Apr, 2008 08:06 am
sozobe wrote:
For whatever combination of reasons, the media narrative has gotten out of hand and it's very pro-Hillary.

I think at its core, the media narrative isn't so much pro-Hillary as it's pro-whatever-prolongs-the-horse-race. Horse races sell news coverage, decisions don't.

Meanwhile, Obama is the last grown-up standing in McCain's silly debate about the fuel tax moratorium. Hillary has caved in. Good for Obama!
0 Replies
 
FreeDuck
 
  1  
Tue 29 Apr, 2008 08:06 am
Foxfyre wrote:
They don't want an angry black man for President.

I think a lot of Americans want a president who loves his country, sees it as basically good, and intends to build from that point of view to make it better. I think very few Americans have any problem with that President being a black man.

I think Obama has yet to convince some folks which one of these he actually is.


Really? Seriously? You think that Obama is an "angry black man"? Or even that there is any possibility that he is secretly an "angry black man"? If you and some folks have yet to be convinced, doesn't it seem like that's more about your perception than it is about what or who Obama is?
0 Replies
 
sozobe
 
  1  
Tue 29 Apr, 2008 08:08 am
Thomas wrote:
sozobe wrote:
For whatever combination of reasons, the media narrative has gotten out of hand and it's very pro-Hillary.

I think at its core, the media narrative isn't so much pro-Hillary as it's pro-whatever-prolongs-the-horse-race. Horse races sell news coverage, decisions don't.


Yeah, I agree. Bill said that too.

I'm not saying that the media is generally pro-Hillary, btw, I'm saying that this specific media narrative of the last week or so is pro-Hillary (and hurts Obama).

Quote:
Meanwhile, Obama is the last grown-up standing in McCain's silly debate about the fuel tax moratorium. Hillary has caved in. Good for Obama!


Yep!
0 Replies
 
engineer
 
  1  
Tue 29 Apr, 2008 08:14 am
Foxfyre wrote:
nimh wrote:
Diest TKO wrote:
Finn - It has been asked before in this thread, and I'd like ot hear your response.

"Because of Rev Wright's influence, what practical fears do you have about what Obama would do in office?"

Answer specifically about what types of policies you are affraid of that would be directly related to Rev Wright.

Now there's a good question that, throughout all this pompous indignation, I havent seen one conservative poster answer... good luck with that.


Then you haven't read my take on it. I don't see it as a matter of fear at all. I see it as a matter of what one aesthetically wants in a President.

I think a lot of Americans don't want a BLACK president who sees America as Jeremiah Wright seems to see it and who apparently condoned that for more than 20 years. They don't want an angry black man for President.

I think a lot of Americans want a president who loves his country, sees it as basically good, and intends to build from that point of view to make it better. I think very few Americans have any problem with that President being a black man.

I think Obama has yet to convince some folks which one of these he actually is.

But why is that? Obama has never presented himself as other than a man who "loves his country, sees it as basically good, and intends to build from that point of view to make it better." If you feel that Rev. Wright doesn't feel that way, then don't vote Wright for President. Obama has never said anything in any forum that would suggest that he doesn't meet your stated requirement.
0 Replies
 
Thomas
 
  1  
Tue 29 Apr, 2008 08:22 am
sozobe wrote:
Yeah, I agree. Bill said that too.

That's how I fake intelligence on A2K. I figure out what Bill thinks, then copy&paste.
0 Replies
 
snood
 
  1  
Tue 29 Apr, 2008 08:24 am
Isn't it funny how this works? Obama has never said anything that anyone can show anywhere at any time that would make him appear other than a hardworking, decent man who believes in America and wants to make it better. But to some he still has a long way to go to prove he's NOT an america-bashing, militant, closet muslim with perverted ideas and ideology.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Tue 29 Apr, 2008 08:34 am
engineer wrote:
Foxfyre wrote:
nimh wrote:
Diest TKO wrote:
Finn - It has been asked before in this thread, and I'd like ot hear your response.

"Because of Rev Wright's influence, what practical fears do you have about what Obama would do in office?"

Answer specifically about what types of policies you are affraid of that would be directly related to Rev Wright.

Now there's a good question that, throughout all this pompous indignation, I havent seen one conservative poster answer... good luck with that.


Then you haven't read my take on it. I don't see it as a matter of fear at all. I see it as a matter of what one aesthetically wants in a President.

I think a lot of Americans don't want a BLACK president who sees America as Jeremiah Wright seems to see it and who apparently condoned that for more than 20 years. They don't want an angry black man for President.

I think a lot of Americans want a president who loves his country, sees it as basically good, and intends to build from that point of view to make it better. I think very few Americans have any problem with that President being a black man.

I think Obama has yet to convince some folks which one of these he actually is.

But why is that? Obama has never presented himself as other than a man who "loves his country, sees it as basically good, and intends to build from that point of view to make it better." If you feel that Rev. Wright doesn't feel that way, then don't vote Wright for President. Obama has never said anything in any forum that would suggest that he doesn't meet your stated requirement.


Well now even if he was one--I am absolutely not saying that he is--would Obama or any other candidate present himself as an angry black man? I mean Obama is quite well educated, obviously quite intelligent, and politically astute. He would know better than to do that.

But nobody.....and I do mean NOBODY.....would believe that a candidate sat in Jerry Falwell's church or John Hagee's church or some other controversial preacher's church for 20+ years without feeling comfortable there and NOBODY would believe that the candidate had never heard the more outrageous rhetoric of such pastors and/or didnt know about it. Especially when he described the pastor as his spiritual mentor and put that pastor on his campaign staff.

Can you honestly say that this would not color your perceptions of the candidate especially as controversial sound bites were aired and printed again and again?

And once it became a problem for the candidate, to THEN say that he disagreed with his pastor and had he known about all that he would have left would ring a bit hollow don't you think? Would you believe him?

And that is the problem that Jeremiah Wright is for Barack Obama. Especially since it is obvious Wright has no intention of shutting up and letting the issue die.
0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  1  
Tue 29 Apr, 2008 08:45 am
snood wrote:
Isn't it funny how this works? Obama has never said anything that anyone can show anywhere at any time that would make him appear other than a hardworking, decent man who believes in America and wants to make it better. But to some he still has a long way to go to prove he's NOT an america-bashing, militant, closet muslim with perverted ideas and ideology.

JFK had the same problem, though probably a milder version.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Tue 29 Apr, 2008 08:47 am
georgeob1 wrote:
snood wrote:
Isn't it funny how this works? Obama has never said anything that anyone can show anywhere at any time that would make him appear other than a hardworking, decent man who believes in America and wants to make it better. But to some he still has a long way to go to prove he's NOT an america-bashing, militant, closet muslim with perverted ideas and ideology.

JFK had the same problem, though probably a milder version.


JFK also didn't have soundbites of his priest being aired over and over on the evening news reminding everybody how CATHOLIC he was.
0 Replies
 
revel
 
  1  
Tue 29 Apr, 2008 08:49 am
If you had ever bothered read or listen to Obama's many conversations concerning this you would know Obama addressed all the issues and questions you raised. He said he didn't hear about the main inflamatory remarks until the start of his compaign but he heard other inflamatory remarks he didn't agree with. Yes; he went to that church for twenty years and Wright has been his spirtual mentor for twenty years and was instrumental in his spirtual beliefs. He also admired Wright for his work for the poor and his other such things. Obama has said that there have been some things he heard in sermons from Wright which he didn't agree with and some that even raised his eyebrows; but that his ties to his communty church and his ties to Wright which involved other than just those few snippets which have thrown around in the media kept him involved with the Church and with Wright. He agreed with him on many issues such as Jesus and helping the poor. I can understand all of this and I accept it if you and some other "folks" don't; so be it.
0 Replies
 
Bi-Polar Bear
 
  1  
Tue 29 Apr, 2008 09:00 am
http://www.nypost.com/seven/04292008/news/regionalnews/sharpton_raps_obama_108577.htm
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Tue 29 Apr, 2008 09:02 am
I've heard it, read it, and looking at it all closely Revel. I've listened to and read Jeremiah Wright sermons until my eyes crossed. I watched the Moyers interview twice. I re-read Obama's 'race speech'. I listened to the National Press Club speech this week.

And none of that helps Obama with those who still have questions about him any more than you would believe a Republican who claimed he didn't agree with the message of his church and pastor when he had been an active member for 20+ years.

Jeremiah Wright is a problem for Obama and currently seems to be intentionally trying to be a problem for Obama.

It is a stretch but here and there are suggestions that Jeremiah Wright may be deliberating trying to hurt Obama for criticizing the message and/or because he doesn't want Obama elected President. After all it's tougher to preach a message of "rich white people keeping a brother down" when that brother is elected President of the United States.
0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  1  
Tue 29 Apr, 2008 09:28 am
Foxfyre wrote:

Then you haven't read my take on it. I don't see it as a matter of fear at all. I see it as a matter of what one aesthetically wants in a President.

I think a lot of Americans don't want a BLACK president who sees America as Jeremiah Wright seems to see it and who apparently condoned that for more than 20 years. They don't want an angry black man for President.

I think that is accurate. However, we must also recognize that the Wright issue itself has been distorted and overplayed by partisan politicians and a media always eager to jump on a "good story".

Wright appears to be a serious man who probably reflects the attitudes of a substantial fraction of our Black population. Though I don't pretend to fully understand his ideas and his motivation for them, I doubt seriously that he is a revolutionary, bent on the destruction of our system and way of life. There really is enough of a gulf between the life experiences of Blacks & Whites in this country to make it difficult for either group to fully understand the perspective of the other. I also believe that gulf is disappearing fast enough so that there are real generational gaps among both Blacks and Whites in their perceptions of these issues. It is noteworthy that Obama and Wright are of decidedly different generations and backgrounds. It isn't hard for me to believe that Obama might have valued his experience at the Trinity church, and, at the same time, discounted some of the perceptions of older leaders in it, including Wright. In fact, Obama has already said as much himself.

I come from a background of first generation Irish immigrants, intensely Catholic in their religion and world view and preoccupied with old injustices. There too was found a generational effect with significant differences between the perceptions and life expectations of fathers and sons, mothers and daughters. I can recall many things said among my elders that, taken out of context and broadcast loudly, would appear decidedly anti American, even revolutionary to the WASP society that we despised so much (and imitated so assiduously). I don't think it ever amounted to a danger and subsequent events have absolutely confirmed the wonderfulness of the Irish and everything about them. :wink:

These aren't the only such stories. and there is something central to the human condition about them. I believe that, seen in this context, the Obama - Wright matter is easily understood, and not at all representative of anything dangerous to our system of governance, values or traditions.

Foxfyre wrote:

I think a lot of Americans want a president who loves his country, sees it as basically good, and intends to build from that point of view to make it better. I think very few Americans have any problem with that President being a black man.

I think Obama has yet to convince some folks which one of these he actually is.
I don't see anything in Obama, or the Wright story, that violates any of these assumed attributes. Seeing America as "basically good" doesn't require rose colored glasses. All of our elections are about improving things and correcting issues that have gone wrong. The habit of finding such defects in political opponents has a long association with the worst forms of demagoguery in our politics.
0 Replies
 
FreeDuck
 
  1  
Tue 29 Apr, 2008 09:30 am
Foxfyre wrote:

And none of that helps Obama with those who still have questions about him any more than you would believe a Republican who claimed he didn't agree with the message of his church and pastor when he had been an active member for 20+ years.


And here's the core problem. You're conflating some controversial statements of a pastor with the message of his church.
0 Replies
 
FreeDuck
 
  1  
Tue 29 Apr, 2008 09:36 am
georgeob1 wrote:

Wright appears to be a serious man who probably reflects the attitudes of a substantial fraction of our Black population. Though I don't pretend to fully understand his ideas and his motivation for them, I doubt seriously that he is a revolutionary, bent on the destruction of our system and way of life. There really is enough of a gulf between the life experiences of Blacks & Whites in this country to make it difficult for either group to fully understand the perspective of the other. I also believe that gulf is disappearing fast enough so that there are real generational gaps among both Blacks and Whites in their perceptions of these issues. It is noteworthy that Obama and Wright are of decidedly different generations and backgrounds. It isn't hard for me to believe that Obama might have valued his experience at the Trinity church, and, at the same time, discounted some of the perceptions of older leaders in it, including Wright. In fact, Obama has already said as much himself.


Really, really well said. All of it was, actually, but this part especially.
0 Replies
 
okie
 
  1  
Tue 29 Apr, 2008 09:48 am
snood wrote:
Isn't it funny how this works? Obama has never said anything that anyone can show anywhere at any time that would make him appear other than a hardworking, decent man who believes in America and wants to make it better. But to some he still has a long way to go to prove he's NOT an america-bashing, militant, closet muslim with perverted ideas and ideology.

Actions speak louder than words, snood. We already know what his wife has been saying. We also know that Obama spoke of Wright as his political father and even surrogate father, according to some things I've read. Snood, I don't think one would say that about someone that you disagree with very much.

For a man that we really know very little about, what we are learning now is not very comforting, not to me anyway. I am not at all convinced that Obama does not harbor some pretty revolutionary, America bashing ideas. I doubt the Muslim tag, but Wright speaks very affectionately of Farrakhan, and we know Obama attended the million man march. Whether he verbalizes them or not, he certainly has been associated with some people that have fringe ideas. I don't know how anyone could listen to Wright and claim he is not a political figure, 100% contrary to what he claims. His sermons are 90% politics, and 10% religion, at least the ones I've listened to on the web.

Here we have Obama claiming to be a uniter, and even before being elected, the man is causing more divisiveness than anyone has seen for a long while, simply by virtue of his associations with very divisive, controversial, and marginal people.
0 Replies
 
engineer
 
  1  
Tue 29 Apr, 2008 09:52 am
okie wrote:
Here we have Obama claiming to be a uniter, and even before being elected, the man is causing more divisiveness than anyone has seen for a long while, simply by virtue of his associations with very divisive, controversial, and marginal people.

So if he is willing to sit down with lepers and prostitutes as well as upstanding religious folk, he is a divider? It sounds like he's willing to talk to everyone and listen to others opinions on their merits instead of shunning them because of their backgrounds.
0 Replies
 
 

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