Roxxxanne
 
  1  
Wed 16 Apr, 2008 07:43 am
Hillary sinking in latest poll

Democrats Willing to Let Battle Continue
Poll Shows Gains in Key Areas for Obama

By Dan Balz and Jon Cohen
Washington Post Staff Writers
Wednesday, April 16, 2008; Page A01

Sen. Barack Obama holds a 10-point lead over Sen. Hillary Rodham Clinton when Democrats are asked whom they would prefer to see emerge as the party's presidential nominee, but there is little public pressure to bring the long and increasingly heated contest to an end, according to a new Washington Post-ABC News poll.


The fierce battle, however, appears to have taken a toll on the image of Clinton, who was once seen as the favorite. And Obama has widened his lead since early February on several key qualities that voters are looking for in a candidate and has narrowed sizable advantages for Clinton on others.

He now has a 2-to-1 edge on who is considered more electable in a general contest -- a major reversal from the last poll -- and has dramatically reduced a large Clinton lead on which of the two is the "stronger leader."

While Clinton retains a big edge over Obama on experience, public impressions of her have taken a sharply negative turn. Today, more Americans have an unfavorable view of her than at any time since The Post and ABC began asking the question, in 1992. Impressions of her husband, former president Bill Clinton, also have grown negative by a small margin.

In the new poll, 54 percent said they have an unfavorable view of Sen. Clinton, up from 40 percent a few days after she won the New Hampshire primary in early January. Her favorability rating has dropped among both Democrats and independents over the past three months, although her overall such rating among Democrats remains high. Nearly six in 10 independents now view her unfavorably.

Obama's favorability rating also has declined over the same period but remains, on balance, more positive than negative.

The findings come as the two contenders prepare to meet tonight in Philadelphia for their first debate in more than a month and their final direct encounter before Tuesday's Pennsylvania primary. The exchange will begin at 8 p.m. Eastern time and will air on ABC News.

A likely centerpiece of the debate will be a controversy over comments Obama made April 6 at a San Francisco fundraiser in which he described residents of economically hard-hit small towns as "bitter" and said they "cling" to guns or religion. The Clinton campaign quickly seized the opportunity to tag Obama as an elitist who is out of touch with the values of rural America.

Obama said that while he may have chosen his words poorly, he was correct in saying that many Americans in these communities are rightly angry about the failure of the government and politicians to do more to improve economic conditions in their areas. His campaign also released an ad yesterday that criticizes Clinton. The spot opens with a narrator saying: "There's a reason people are rejecting Hillary Clinton's attacks. Because the same old Washington politics won't lower the price of gas or help our struggling economy. Barack Obama will represent all Americans."

Overall, 51 percent of Democrats and Democratic-leaning independents said they would prefer to see Obama win the nomination and face Sen. John McCain, the presumptive Republican nominee, in the November general election; 41 percent would rather have Clinton atop the Democratic ticket. Post-ABC polling just before Clinton won the Ohio primary and the popular vote in the Texas primary on March 4 showed nearly the same results.

In hypothetical general-election matchups, Obama holds a slim, five-point lead over McCain, while McCain is three points ahead of Clinton, which is within poll's margin of error. But in the past six weeks, McCain has gained ground on each of his potential rivals.

The closeness of the primary contests and McCain's momentum are a worrisome sign to some Democratic Party officials who fear that an extended and negative contest could hurt their chances of winning back the White House and picking up seats in Congress.

Page 2
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Wed 16 Apr, 2008 07:44 am
okie wrote:
blatham, you illustrate perfectly the elitist liberal mindset.


Of course I do. Axioms are axioms, after all.
0 Replies
 
real life
 
  1  
Wed 16 Apr, 2008 07:59 am
dyslexia wrote:
real life wrote:
dyslexia wrote:
Okie, I suspect your are in for difficult times after Obama is elected by the citizens of the USA.


oh I thought it was going to be good times for all if the Dems were elected.......

you mean Obama really WON'T solve everybody's situation?
You're not keeping up real life, aren't you getting the memos?
Obama in his first 100 days will sign an executive order confiscating all firearms in north America; establish Urdu as the national language; establish the state religion as Transcendentalism; nationalize all fast food hamburger stands to sell only Miniature Poodle meat; double the gasoline tax and relocate all conservatives to Gitmo. It's really going to be difficult times.


No, I guess I don't get any 'memos'.

My comments reflect only my own view, not someone else's.

What concerns me is the liberal disdain and outright hostility for those who say what they think.

If liberals have their way with 'hate speech' laws and other such, scenes like this could be coming soon to a town near you:

Quote:
Brigitte Bardot on trial for Muslim slur

PARIS (Reuters) - French former film star Brigitte Bardot went on trial on Tuesday for insulting Muslims, the fifth time she has faced the charge of "inciting racial hatred" over her controversial remarks about Islam and its followers.

Prosecutors asked that the Paris court hand the 73-year-old former sex symbol a two-month suspended prison sentence and fine her 15,000 euros ($23,760) for saying the Muslim community was "destroying our country and imposing its acts".

from http://www.reuters.com/article/entertainmentNews/idUSL1584799120080415?feedType=RSS&feedName=entertainmentNews&rpc=22&sp=true


Quote:
CANADA'S THOUGHT POLICE

December 16, 2007 -- Celebrated author Mark Steyn has been summoned to appear before two Canadian judicial panels on charges linked to his book "America Alone."

The book, a No. 1 bestseller in Canada, argues that Western nations are succumbing to an Islamist imperialist threat. The fact that charges based on it are proceeding apace proves his point.

Steyn, who won the 2006 Eric Breindel Journalism Award (co-sponsored by The Post and its parent, News Corp), writes for dozens of publications on several continents. After the Canadian general-interest magazine Maclean's reprinted a chapter from the book, five Muslim law-school students, acting through the auspices of the Canadian Islamic Congress, demanded that the magazine be punished for spreading "hatred and contempt" for Muslims.

The plaintiffs allege that Maclean's advocated, among other things, the notion that Islamic culture is incompatible with Canada's liberalized, Western civilization. They insist such a notion is untrue and, in effect, want opinions like that banned from publication.
from http://www.nypost.com/seven/12162007/postopinion/editorials/canadas_thought_police_72483.htm
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Wed 16 Apr, 2008 08:06 am
sozobe wrote:
(Hi Rockhead, good to see you here.)

I missed this last page when I posted, didn't see nimh's posts about Hillary's handling of the situation perhaps backfiring, I just said something about that on the Polls thread.


Poor Hillary. It seems that just about every tactic she has tried has backfired and, while I think she is deserving of sinking poll numbers, I actually understand how it must feel to her to see her one shot at the big prize slipping away.

How often, however, have we seen a politician get a little 'crazy' trying to pull their fat out of the fire?

Assuming that Obama will be annointed as the Democratic candidate, it will be interesting to see if both he or McCain will be able to maintain their respective composure should one start slipping badly in the polls. Right now they share similar approval ratings and there is no clear leader in a one on one matchup so both can afford to be gracious and magnanimous.
0 Replies
 
FreeDuck
 
  1  
Wed 16 Apr, 2008 08:12 am
Well, we've seen what Obama does when he's behind, as he currently is in PA and as he started out. He's pretty even tempered.
0 Replies
 
dyslexia
 
  1  
Wed 16 Apr, 2008 08:22 am
okie wrote:
blatham, you illustrate perfectly the elitist liberal mindset.
Well probably because Bernie is an elitist as am I and many others on this forum and across the world. it sure beats the hell out of being vulgar (lacking in cultivation, perception, or taste : coarse morally crude, undeveloped, or unregenerate : gross ostentatious or excessive in expenditure or display : pretentious) I'm guessing Okie that you havelittle or no regard for education or any other form of distinction such as skills or talents or insights and are thereby frightened of "elitiests." McCain and the entire Bush family are major elitists, probably the best know elitist with a conservative bent in america was William F Buckley, On the other hand, Richard Nixon was no elitist. From the liberal bench we have the elitist FDR and the non-elitist Harry S Truman.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Wed 16 Apr, 2008 08:23 am
FreeDuck wrote:
Well, we've seen what Obama does when he's behind, as he currently is in PA and as he started out. He's pretty even tempered.


Yes but he doesn't HAVE to win PA and he knows it. Once he took the lead, he has kept it and improved on it, so we don't have any way of knowing how he would handle it if he should find himself unexpectedly losing. I suspect he would retain his unruffled demeanor though.
0 Replies
 
sozobe
 
  1  
Wed 16 Apr, 2008 08:26 am
Foxfyre wrote:
FreeDuck wrote:
Well, we've seen what Obama does when he's behind, as he currently is in PA and as he started out. He's pretty even tempered.


Yes but he doesn't HAVE to win PA and he knows it. Once he took the lead, he has kept it and improved on it, so we don't have any way of knowing how he would handle it if he should find himself unexpectedly losing. I suspect he would retain his unruffled demeanor though.


Unexpectedly losing -- like in New Hampshire?

Remember, everyone had that called for him, and his own staff thought he'd win. That's when the race abruptly shifted from a possible early romp to the nomination (Iowa, then NH, then everything else) to the long, drawn-out slog we're dealing with now.

But yeah, he's remained unruffled throughout. Steady Eddie, No-drama Obama.
0 Replies
 
eoe
 
  1  
Wed 16 Apr, 2008 09:19 am
No-drama Obama. LOVE IT! Very Happy
0 Replies
 
Bi-Polar Bear
 
  1  
Wed 16 Apr, 2008 09:22 am
sozobe wrote:
Foxfyre wrote:
FreeDuck wrote:
Well, we've seen what Obama does when he's behind, as he currently is in PA and as he started out. He's pretty even tempered.


Yes but he doesn't HAVE to win PA and he knows it. Once he took the lead, he has kept it and improved on it, so we don't have any way of knowing how he would handle it if he should find himself unexpectedly losing. I suspect he would retain his unruffled demeanor though.


Unexpectedly losing -- like in New Hampshire?

Remember, everyone had that called for him, and his own staff thought he'd win. That's when the race abruptly shifted from a possible early romp to the nomination (Iowa, then NH, then everything else) to the long, drawn-out slog we're dealing with now.

But yeah, he's remained unruffled throughout. Steady Eddie, No-drama Obama.



right.... he has people to make accusations and statements while he stands behind the screen door and then comes out to say that's not how he really feels in a calm measured tone..... but the attack has been made..... classic passive aggressive behavior...
0 Replies
 
sozobe
 
  1  
Wed 16 Apr, 2008 09:25 am
Not original, eoe!

Quote:


http://thecaucus.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/03/12/obama-meets-with-retired-admirals-generals/

Re: the recent thing with Geoff Davis, for example, the guy said "boy" but he also said that Obama was a "snake-oil salesman" and "unqualified to be president." You don't think that earned the response it got from Bill Burton? (Obama's spokesman.)
0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  1  
Wed 16 Apr, 2008 09:42 am
blatham wrote:
nimh wrote:
georgeob1 wrote:
It was truly insulting to those who were the subject of the remarks

Says someone speaking with the expertise about the lives of blue-collar, small-town Pennsylvania folk that a former government and business executive naturally would have... :wink:

In the meantime, the polls are not showing Obama's remarks to have any effect at all, on balance. So it looks like the only offense taken is by elitist, richly paid professional media pundits and politicians, in their role-playing of how they imagine yer typical blue-collar heartland to feel. Maybe they should get out more.


Average americans ought to get down on their knees and thank George Will, Bill Kristol, Sean Hannity, Charles Krauthammer, Fred Barnes and georgeob...all with their fingers and lives so closely tuned to the simple folk of Pennsylvania. And each with their personal histories so rich in dedicated and selfless, shirtsleeves-rolled-up community outreach programs too. Precisely the fellows to interpret the spirit and daily lives and thoughts of troubled small town Americans. Nothing...nothing at all...elitist about these boys in their presumptions of how small town americans think or ought to think because of their (almost too close for comfort) connections to them average folks who, it is hoped, have better personal hygiene habits that in the old days.


Sad to see Nimh & Blatham resorting to personal attacks in response to an obvious interpretation of the Obama remarks and a restrained forecast about their likely effect.

I'm flattered by the association with Kristol & Krauthammer, but I'm not too keen on the rest.

The fact is I was brought up in a Democrat household - my father was a long-term Democrat Congressman from Michigan (Detroit) - truly the apex of what is now the blue collar rust belt. I don't suggest that necessarily makes me a member of the tribe, but rather that I do have close knowledge of what I was talking about. I too was insulted by Obama's foolish remarks, and saddened to see him toadying up to a bunch of San Francisco loonie liberals.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Wed 16 Apr, 2008 09:43 am
Bi-Polar Bear wrote:
sozobe wrote:
Foxfyre wrote:
FreeDuck wrote:
Well, we've seen what Obama does when he's behind, as he currently is in PA and as he started out. He's pretty even tempered.


Yes but he doesn't HAVE to win PA and he knows it. Once he took the lead, he has kept it and improved on it, so we don't have any way of knowing how he would handle it if he should find himself unexpectedly losing. I suspect he would retain his unruffled demeanor though.


Unexpectedly losing -- like in New Hampshire?

Remember, everyone had that called for him, and his own staff thought he'd win. That's when the race abruptly shifted from a possible early romp to the nomination (Iowa, then NH, then everything else) to the long, drawn-out slog we're dealing with now.

But yeah, he's remained unruffled throughout. Steady Eddie, No-drama Obama.



right.... he has people to make accusations and statements while he stands behind the screen door and then comes out to say that's not how he really feels in a calm measured tone..... but the attack has been made..... classic passive aggressive behavior...


This is a page right out of the Bill Clinton playbook, however. Clinton was so successful in deflecting all the stuff that kept flying at him by not allowing anything to fester but hitting it head on; no charge goes unanswered, etc. etc. The theory was that even if you don't make a solid case for your own defense, your base will agree with whatever you say and take up the mantra of the day. As a candidate, Clinton usually let others speak for him on controversial issues too.

Obama, as a campaigner, is as charming and engaging and pleasant as Bill Clinton was and seems to appeal to the same kinds of people.

I think Hillary has missed the boat not because she is less qualified or capable or skilled or experienced or has a worse game plan than Obama, but she simply has been unable to be consistently convincing as a charming, engaging, and pleasant person. Even if the evidence isn't always conclusive, Obama makes people believe he is wonderful and Hillary hasn't been able to accomplish that. It is easy to dismiss a person's weaknesses once you've decided they are wonderful.

It is unfortunate that we elect our candidates based on popular appeal far more than we elect candidates based on ability.
0 Replies
 
sozobe
 
  1  
Wed 16 Apr, 2008 09:44 am
And when we find one with both ability and popular appeal, we post 1,500 pages about him! :-D
0 Replies
 
H2O MAN
 
  1  
Wed 16 Apr, 2008 09:47 am
Re: Obama '08?
sozobe wrote:
Obama '08?


Obama will be nominated to run against McCain and McCain will be elected president.
0 Replies
 
kickycan
 
  1  
Wed 16 Apr, 2008 09:49 am
Foxfyre wrote:
It is unfortunate that we elect our candidates based on popular appeal far more than we elect candidates based on ability.


Yeah, you're right. Just think, if we didn't do that, we could have avoided this whole George W. Bush situation.
0 Replies
 
sozobe
 
  1  
Wed 16 Apr, 2008 09:52 am
Re: Obama '08?
H2O_MAN wrote:
sozobe wrote:
Obama '08?


Obama will be nominated to run against McCain


Hope so!

Quote:
and McCain will be elected president.


Don't think so!

Obama's doing fine against McCain now -- and now is about when he'd do worst, given the attacks from two fronts and the lack of a decision re: the Dem nominee. Obama is likely to a) get a big bump once the nomination is decided (if it's decided in his favor) and b) do really well against McCain in a head-to-head campaign.
0 Replies
 
Butrflynet
 
  1  
Wed 16 Apr, 2008 10:02 am
real life wrote:

No, I guess I don't get any 'memos'.

My comments reflect only my own view, not someone else's.

What concerns me is the liberal disdain and outright hostility for those who say what they think.

If liberals have their way with 'hate speech' laws and other such, scenes like this could be coming soon to a town near you...


Real life, aren't you one of the people who have been preaching "disdain and outright hostility" for Obama because of Reverend Wright's "saying what he thinks" during his sermons because they were full of "hate speech?"

You're one of the people who have been pointing to Obama in disbelief when he says his ideology reflects his own views and not someone elses.

Have you become one of those liberal elitists?
0 Replies
 
Butrflynet
 
  1  
Wed 16 Apr, 2008 10:14 am
Foxfyre wrote:
sozobe wrote:
(Hi Rockhead, good to see you here.)

I missed this last page when I posted, didn't see nimh's posts about Hillary's handling of the situation perhaps backfiring, I just said something about that on the Polls thread.


Poor Hillary. It seems that just about every tactic she has tried has backfired and, while I think she is deserving of sinking poll numbers, I actually understand how it must feel to her to see her one shot at the big prize slipping away.

How often, however, have we seen a politician get a little 'crazy' trying to pull their fat out of the fire?

Assuming that Obama will be annointed as the Democratic candidate, it will be interesting to see if both he or McCain will be able to maintain their respective composure should one start slipping badly in the polls. Right now they share similar approval ratings and there is no clear leader in a one on one matchup so both can afford to be gracious and magnanimous.


I was listening this morning to one of the few talk radio stations I can get on my clock radio in the bedroom, it's one of those Clear Channel "Independent Thinker" stations with lots of Ron Paul fans. The morning hosts were bantering back and forth with their usual disdain for Democrats, Republicans and the debate tonight. They said they were eager for the Obama/McCain match ups so the debates would be more entertaining. They predicted that after tonight's debate Hillary would get the nomination, only it would be as running mate for John McCain as his VP.
0 Replies
 
H2O MAN
 
  1  
Wed 16 Apr, 2008 10:15 am
Re: Obama '08?
sozobe wrote:
Obama is likely to a) get a big bump once the nomination is decided (if it's decided in his favor) and b) do really well against McCain in a head-to-head campaign.


No doubt he will get a bounce and he will do well in a head-to-head
campaign, but neither of these will be enough to win on election day.

The Obama ~ McCain debates are going to be must see TV Cool
0 Replies
 
 

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