nimh
 
  1  
Fri 4 Apr, 2008 06:25 pm
Talking of which...

Quote:
Obama inspires racial dialogue in churches

Matthai Kuruvila, Chronicle Religion Writer
Sunday, March 30, 2008

Sen. Barack Obama's historic speech earlier this month in Philadelphia on race relations has elevated the discussion about the issue to the point where it has worked itself into the pews and pulpits of Bay Area churches. Local ministers say they gave sermons about it on Easter, the holiest day of the year for Christians, and others plan to do so in the future.

These ministers - Pentecostals, Episcopalians and Baptists, Republican and Democrat, white, black and Asian - say Obama's honesty offers a steppingstone to wade into the volatile waters of race relations. They said his speech, which called for an honest dialogue about race, offered an opportunity to be open to others' experiences without automatically triggering the shame, guilt and strife such conversations usually entail.

"Obama is such a gift right now [..]," said Allan Collister, 64, who is white and is the pastor of New Church Berkeley, a nondenominational and heavily Asian church that's within the evangelical Protestant umbrella. "He treats with respect people he doesn't agree with. [..]"

In his speech, Obama spoke of the history of race in America, explaining the sources of anger and resentment by whites and blacks. He said these resentments are too often stifled in private conversation, and disregarded as illegitimate or racist despite seeds of truth. Obama said that has to change. [..]

'The most segregated hour'

Several ministers said there is no more appropriate place for the conversation about race to occur than the place where believers search for their greatest meaning. That churches themselves often exemplify some of the racial ills of the nation only emphasizes the need, several ministers said.

"The most segregated hour in America is 11 o'clock on Sunday morning," said the Rev. Arelious Walker, 77, pastor of True Hope Church of God in Christ, a Bayview district congregation of Pentecostals, primarily black. "That, to me, is unacceptable. ... It is not the plan or the will of God that a church be exclusive to one ethnic group."

Walker, who has a goal of raising the nonblack members of his congregation by 5 percent this year, said the speech "helps church people to confront their problems with race. I know some blacks don't even try to bring whites into their congregation, and I know some whites, they don't want to welcome blacks." [..]

Black, white and Asian ministers said the fact that many were shocked by Wright's comments speaks to the racial divide and unfamiliarity with anger and resentment in the black community.

Black churches play a unique role for a community historically disenfranchised from power - political, economic and otherwise. Wright gained national renown for the social services his church provides. Andrew Park said he would have not used Wright's language or examples. But he and others said the underlying issues can't be conveniently ignored by creating a caricature.

Affirming different cultures

Listening to Wright on YouTube, "I was saying 'Amen,' " said Park, 32, a Korean American and a Baptist seminarian who leads Oakland Mosaic Project. "The struggle of what race you are is huge in America, especially in an urban environment. ... As an Asian American, I could totally resonate with that."

Park said his sermon today, inspired by Obama's speech, would be about the story of Jesus engaging with a Samaritan woman at a well - a parable affirming acceptance of different cultures.

The Rt. Rev. Marc Andrus, the Episcopal bishop of California, said the Bay Area's diversity "already calls us beyond the dimensions of that speech" [..]. Andrus said people don't see others' hurts as easily as they see their own.

"I've become aware that each self-identified group within the diocese tends to suffer in isolation," he said. If it's segregated public schools, it's mostly black people who come to meetings. If it's about immigration, it's immigrants. If it's about sexuality, it's largely gays and lesbians. "St. Paul says that when any member of the family suffers, all suffer. Or when one rejoices, all rejoice. But we as a people live as if that weren't true."

Andrus, 51, said the largely white diocese is moving toward greater inclusiveness. Once every three months, for example, the diocese invites all the varied groups to provide prayers for their needs. Those are then woven together as one prayer in "services of reconciliation." It sounds simple, but it requires openness to others' pain.

"We have to build on the kind of openings that a speech like this gives us, and forgive each other," Andrus said. "Forgiveness is hard work. Reconciliation is also hard work."
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Fri 4 Apr, 2008 06:38 pm
Hard work is right; amen.
0 Replies
 
Ramafuchs
 
  1  
Fri 4 Apr, 2008 06:45 pm
nimh
alliteration is artful aid and not annoying american aristocracy.
My view is this
American way of life and thinking
is no more fashionable for the future generation.
0 Replies
 
mysteryman
 
  1  
Fri 4 Apr, 2008 07:30 pm
nimh wrote:
Snippet from the news:

Quote:
Presidential candidate Barack Obama [..] ridiculed likely Republican nominee John McCain on Wednesday for offering "not one single idea" to help hard-pressed homeowners facing foreclosure.

"George Bush called this the ownership society, but what he really meant was 'you're-on-your-own' society," Obama told a town hall meeting here [..]. "John McCain apparently wants to continue this."


Then please tell us why the govt (you and me) should bail out those people that made bad decisions.
Those people that couldnt afford the house they bought, those people that bought houses hoping to make a profit, and anyone else that made their own bad decisions.

If I buy a car I cant afford, will you pay it off for me, or bail me out?
If someone makes a bad decision, they need to learn from their mistake.If we bail them out, they will have learned nothing.
0 Replies
 
Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Fri 4 Apr, 2008 08:29 pm
revel wrote:
Finn dAbuzz wrote:
revel wrote:
Feel good capitalizing and coloring that Finn buzz?


Whoahhh...revel gets salty!

Actually it comes with that color, and no the act of capitalizing doesn't affect my mood one way or the other. However,the sight and sounds of Gin Blossom Teddy making a fool of himself always puts a bounce in my step.

This little episode was a classic and far the worse gaffe than Ashcrofts. Funny though, you can't hear any boos in the background of Aquaman's clip, and I certainly don't recall anyone suggesting that his slip was intentional.

I do look forward to the continued public spectacle of The Hayannis Port Sybarite's further decent into dotage.I'm betting that he will provide us with even better theater than gnarled old Strom Thurmond admonishing a witness during the Clarence Thomas hearings to "TALK INTO THE MACHINE!"

(You know that capitalization didn't give me a thrill either. Am I missing something? A technique you can recommend?)


Embarrassed Didn't realize it was a link. Just thought you felt the need to Spell that out in colors and captitalize it.

When one side has made a topic of his name and have made much of where he attended school; it can be forgiven if Obama supporters are quick to judge a mistake like that from someone of Ashcroft political side than Kennedy's side and given the fact that he was supporting Obama at the time that he made the mistake.


Whoaah...that's rather tortured.

You misunderstood it was a link - understandable, as I've done the same thing myself. No need for all the other bilge though, you don't need an excuse, and certainly not a feeble one such as you've offered.

Take another look at the Kennedy clip. In point of fact, it was well before he endorsed him and he was actually quite perturbed that someone introducing him didn't give him the due he felt was his. He was annoyed.

I don't for a second believe that he intentionally botched Obama's name, but it was very funny that he did.
0 Replies
 
Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Fri 4 Apr, 2008 10:02 pm
nimh wrote:
Talking of which...

Quote:
Obama inspires racial dialogue in churches

Matthai Kuruvila, Chronicle Religion Writer
Sunday, March 30, 2008

Sen. Barack Obama's historic speech earlier this month in Philadelphia on race relations has elevated the discussion about the issue to the point where it has worked itself into the pews and pulpits of Bay Area churches. Local ministers say they gave sermons about it on Easter, the holiest day of the year for Christians, and others plan to do so in the future.

These ministers - Pentecostals, Episcopalians and Baptists, Republican and Democrat, white, black and Asian - say Obama's honesty offers a steppingstone to wade into the volatile waters of race relations. They said his speech, which called for an honest dialogue about race, offered an opportunity to be open to others' experiences without automatically triggering the shame, guilt and strife such conversations usually entail.

"Obama is such a gift right now [..]," said Allan Collister, 64, who is white and is the pastor of New Church Berkeley, a nondenominational and heavily Asian church that's within the evangelical Protestant umbrella. "He treats with respect people he doesn't agree with. [..]"

In his speech, Obama spoke of the history of race in America, explaining the sources of anger and resentment by whites and blacks. He said these resentments are too often stifled in private conversation, and disregarded as illegitimate or racist despite seeds of truth. Obama said that has to change. [..]

'The most segregated hour'

Several ministers said there is no more appropriate place for the conversation about race to occur than the place where believers search for their greatest meaning. That churches themselves often exemplify some of the racial ills of the nation only emphasizes the need, several ministers said.

"The most segregated hour in America is 11 o'clock on Sunday morning," said the Rev. Arelious Walker, 77, pastor of True Hope Church of God in Christ, a Bayview district congregation of Pentecostals, primarily black. "That, to me, is unacceptable. ... It is not the plan or the will of God that a church be exclusive to one ethnic group."

Walker, who has a goal of raising the nonblack members of his congregation by 5 percent this year, said the speech "helps church people to confront their problems with race. I know some blacks don't even try to bring whites into their congregation, and I know some whites, they don't want to welcome blacks." [..]

Black, white and Asian ministers said the fact that many were shocked by Wright's comments speaks to the racial divide and unfamiliarity with anger and resentment in the black community.

Black churches play a unique role for a community historically disenfranchised from power - political, economic and otherwise. Wright gained national renown for the social services his church provides. Andrew Park said he would have not used Wright's language or examples. But he and others said the underlying issues can't be conveniently ignored by creating a caricature.

Affirming different cultures

Listening to Wright on YouTube, "I was saying 'Amen,' " said Park, 32, a Korean American and a Baptist seminarian who leads Oakland Mosaic Project. "The struggle of what race you are is huge in America, especially in an urban environment. ... As an Asian American, I could totally resonate with that."

Park said his sermon today, inspired by Obama's speech, would be about the story of Jesus engaging with a Samaritan woman at a well - a parable affirming acceptance of different cultures.

The Rt. Rev. Marc Andrus, the Episcopal bishop of California, said the Bay Area's diversity "already calls us beyond the dimensions of that speech" [..]. Andrus said people don't see others' hurts as easily as they see their own.

"I've become aware that each self-identified group within the diocese tends to suffer in isolation," he said. If it's segregated public schools, it's mostly black people who come to meetings. If it's about immigration, it's immigrants. If it's about sexuality, it's largely gays and lesbians. "St. Paul says that when any member of the family suffers, all suffer. Or when one rejoices, all rejoice. But we as a people live as if that weren't true."

Andrus, 51, said the largely white diocese is moving toward greater inclusiveness. Once every three months, for example, the diocese invites all the varied groups to provide prayers for their needs. Those are then woven together as one prayer in "services of reconciliation." It sounds simple, but it requires openness to others' pain.

"We have to build on the kind of openings that a speech like this gives us, and forgive each other," Andrus said. "Forgiveness is hard work. Reconciliation is also hard work."


"Historic" speech? Perhaps, but only if it opens the door to a truly balanced discussion of racial issues in America.

This quoted tripe is hardly evidence of such an open discussion. Instead it is just more of the tiresome and all too familiar scripted spew of White liberals suffering from an unwarranted burden of racial guilt.

I think Obama skirted the issue a bit, but he deserves considerable credit for addressing the issue of race with not only a monolithic condemnation of White America, but an attempt to express the perspective of the average White Joe and Jane. If anyone else tried to do so, imagine the scorn the Left would have heaped upon them. (Nixon goes to China?)

The reality is that while African-Americans have quite a lot of reasons to bitch and moan about their place in America, the entire issue of race is truly not black and white.

Resolving disputes has been a fairly significant portion of the career I have built. I know with certainty that no dispute is resolved when one side insists that in all ways the other is not only wrong but immoral in its position.

There are a hundred cliches that relate the basic message informed by "There are two sides to every coin," and "It takes two to tango." Cliches form from traditional wisdom which, while not in all cases correct, enjoy a broad accuracy.

The truly exciting (and perhaps ultimately historic) aspect of Obama's speech is that he has entertained the notion that white perspectives on the issue of race are not necessarily unfathomable and immoral.

Up until now African-American "advocates" have pursued a game plan of aggressive equalization and relied upon Liberal White Guild to assist them.

The former is understandable, and in their shoes I would be as aggressive. The latter, though, is a short term, and ultimately inadequate means to achieve their goals.

The number of liberals with White Guilt is not likely to climb much beyond what it is, and so from a purely practical standpoint of dispute resolution, there is no profit in maintaining this approach, unless stasis is desired outcome (more on this later).

Dispute resolution requires an acceptance, to some degree, of the legitimacy of the other party's position.

(Of course one can be entirely Machiavellian and not care at all about the validity of the positions, but, from experience, this is much easier said than done. Those who can are formidable, as was Machiavelli, but it's a rare characteristic.)

If there is no willingness to accept that the other side might be justified in its position, there will be no reconciliation.

Obama has, at least, broached this truth, and, while he has hedged as best he can for political reasons, he deserves credit for the effort.

Unfortunately, there are any number of powerful people who prefer stasis (see above) to reconciliation. It is unfortunate that the Left seems to have x-ray vision in identifying venal white capitalist opportunists, but cloudy cataracts when it comes to the same variety of swine with a dark colored skin.

If we truly wish to resolve the issue of race in American than we have to stop providing opportunistic, venal, and/or racist African-Americans like Al Sharpton, Jesse Jackson, and Jeremiah Wright with a Free Pass, and actually engage in a truly honest debate about their actions.

No more horse-sh*t about how the Tawana Bradley fraud was Ok for metaphorical reasons.

No more turning a blind eye towards the tactics of extorsion practiced by Jesse Jackson.

No more pathetic attempts to tell us that Wright's inflammatory spew was A-OK when viewed through a black lens.

From a purely objective perspective of dispute resolution, African-Americans, clearly, have the better argument, but the fact remains that if they insist on dictating the terms of resolution, there will be none.

Unfortunately there is a very powerful group of African-Americans whose personal interests are advanced by never-ending, unresolved dispute. Even more unfortunately, these modern day Othellos are seen as racial heroes.

The legitimately wronged will always maintain a certain sense of righteousness, but, as always, absolute positions never, without violence, result in resolution. The reality is that today, as we speak and write, there may be less than a hundred people alive who have directly experienced the degradation of slavery. How many people, today, are alive who suffered the humiliation of Jim Crow? And all the rest? Have they not experienced some negative impact of lingering racism? Of course they have but perspective is required.

African-Americans advocates should continue to remain in the face of White Society until true equality is achieved, however they retard their efforts by insisting on Manichean notions of race, where they are always The Good Guy.

I doubt Obama has the cajones to take this discussion to the next level, but I applaud him for taking it to level one.
0 Replies
 
Roxxxanne
 
  1  
Fri 4 Apr, 2008 10:53 pm
mysteryman wrote:
nimh wrote:
Snippet from the news:

Quote:
Presidential candidate Barack Obama [..] ridiculed likely Republican nominee John McCain on Wednesday for offering "not one single idea" to help hard-pressed homeowners facing foreclosure.

"George Bush called this the ownership society, but what he really meant was 'you're-on-your-own' society," Obama told a town hall meeting here [..]. "John McCain apparently wants to continue this."


Then please tell us why the govt (you and me) should bail out those people that made bad decisions.


First, you tell US who is proposing that we bail out people who made bad decisions?


Quote:
Those people that couldnt afford the house they bought, those people that bought houses hoping to make a profit


Who is proposing that we bail out speculators or people who bought houses they couldn't afford? If everyone in your neighborhood is foreclosed on, (since you always take the extreme positon yourself, it is always ALL THOSE PEOPLE that did X) what do you think that is going to do to the value of your home? Even with the Bear Sterns bailout, it should have never been allowed to get to that point (more regs needed) but once it happened, had they not been bailed out, it could have caused a bank panic. As much as I hate corporate welfare, sometimes there is no other solution. You need to understand that the economy depends on more than your own selfish interests. We are all in this together.

Quote:
If I buy a car I cant afford,


This would be relevant, if you live in your car. Do you?
0 Replies
 
Roxxxanne
 
  1  
Fri 4 Apr, 2008 11:01 pm
Finn sniffs;

Quote:
Instead it is just more of the tiresome and all too familiar scripted spew of White liberals suffering from an unwarranted burden of racial guilt.


Talk about tiresome. There is nothing more tiresome than listening to a self-important white man whine that white folks with compassion and a sense of community with all their brothers and sisters are suffering from some kind of guilt. Just because you lack soul, don't try to paint those who have it as being burdened with anything. In fact, you and your ilk are merely projecting your own shame at not being able to feel true compassion.
0 Replies
 
Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Fri 4 Apr, 2008 11:12 pm
Roxxxanne wrote:
Finn sniffs;

Quote:
Instead it is just more of the tiresome and all too familiar scripted spew of White liberals suffering from an unwarranted burden of racial guilt.


Talk about tiresome. There is nothing more tiresome than listening to a self-important white man whine that white folks with compassion and a sense of community with all their brothers and sisters are suffering from some kind of guilt. Just because you lack soul, don't try to paint those who have it as being burdened with anything. In fact, you and your ilk are merely projecting your own shame at not being able to feel true compassion.


Go Sister (or is it Brother?), Soul Sister (or is something altogether different?)?

I don't imagine you feel guilt about anything.

For someone who lives in a mansion of glass, you really love to throw stones.

BTW - Thank you so much for your new, stylistic, avatar. The Roxxy photos were creeping me out big time.
0 Replies
 
Roxxxanne
 
  1  
Fri 4 Apr, 2008 11:20 pm
Finn dAbuzz wrote:
Roxxxanne wrote:
Finn sniffs;

Quote:
Instead it is just more of the tiresome and all too familiar scripted spew of White liberals suffering from an unwarranted burden of racial guilt.


Talk about tiresome. There is nothing more tiresome than listening to a self-important white man whine that white folks with compassion and a sense of community with all their brothers and sisters are suffering from some kind of guilt. Just because you lack soul, don't try to paint those who have it as being burdened with anything. In fact, you and your ilk are merely projecting your own shame at not being able to feel true compassion.


Go Sister (or is it Brother?), Soul Sister (or is something altogether different?)?

I don't imagine you feel guilt about anything.

For someone who lives in a mansion of glass, you really love to throw stones.

BTW - Thank you so much for your new, stylistic, avatar. The Roxxy photos were creeping me out big time.



Well I imagine it doesn't take much for a creep like you to get creeped out. Yes, in Hunter's Point and Bayview, I was known as Homegirl Roxanne. In Texas, they used to say (referring to my singing) You got more soul than a thousand n****ers. Lovely those Texans with cutesy racist compliments.

Oh, I will be in Dallas the weekend of April 30, in fact I have seats for the game right behind the dugout for the Royals. Wanna hook up?

MC, Visa Amex, Paypal
0 Replies
 
okie
 
  1  
Fri 4 Apr, 2008 11:31 pm
Obama seems to capture the modern liberal way of thinking, that is to not condemn anything, to ride the fence, to have dialogue, blah blah blah. There is no such thing as right or wrong, or black and white, we are all just products of our experience, and understanding is the key to enlightenment and the path to hope, not condemnation of anything. The Jeremiah Wrights are okay, we just need to listen to them, after all there is a reason he or they feel that way? Terrorists, we just need to talk to them, perhaps they have real greviences? The folks that made bad decisons on loans, hey it perhaps was not their fault, we should bail them out? Whites have reasons to be racists, hey my own grandmother was an example of that, we just need to talk about it? Maybe 911 was our fault, at least in part, understanding this is the key to enlightenment, at least my pastor believes this. My daughters, to suggest to them that to have a baby could be punishment, or it may not be, I'm not real sure? The Palestinians make bombs and kill people, it could be because the Jews are evil too, lets talk? I will pull all troops out of Iraq right away, but hey my advisors may have a point, they could be there a few years. Even Ronald Reagan was an agent of change, even though my supporters think Ronald Reagan was the biggest jerk of all time. And by the way even though I am the hero of the anti-military establishment, I want to rebuild the military in the fashion of FDR, Truman, and JFK, so even though many of you may think my philosophy is 180 degrees out of phase with those guys, do not let that bother you. I represent everyone, no matter how wrong or right, the rich and poor, the disenfranchised, the angry, the happy. I am everything to everybody, do you get the picture?

So if some of you do not understand "change," it means anything and everything, talk is all important, dialogue is the name of the game, and "collectivism" is again a credible way to approach the whole ball of wax. Whatever group we belong to, you belong to, that is what I care about, we will bring all of those groups together to talk talk talk, and together we will all sing hail to the chief, as a group, not as an individual, got that?
0 Replies
 
Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Fri 4 Apr, 2008 11:31 pm
Roxxxanne wrote:
Finn sniffs;

Quote:
Instead it is just more of the tiresome and all too familiar scripted spew of White liberals suffering from an unwarranted burden of racial guilt.


Talk about tiresome. There is nothing more tiresome than listening to a self-important white man whine that white folks with compassion and a sense of community with all their brothers and sisters are suffering from some kind of guilt. Just because you lack soul, don't try to paint those who have it as being burdened with anything. In fact, you and your ilk are merely projecting your own shame at not being able to feel true compassion.


A stylistic piece of advise:

Repetition of a word or phrase is never to be encouraged. Misuse is always to be condemned.

Obviously, somewhere along the line you have latched on to "Sniffed" as respects your replies to me.

No doubt you find this a clever usage, but with repetition it becomes less effective.

For example:

One time I reply to Roxxy with:

"How did a man ever achieve such cleavage?"

Humorous or not, if I repeat it every time I respond to you it tends to lose its zest.

Like wise your silly and sadly pretentious use of "sniffed." Where, by the way did you find the term? A copy of Punch, a work of Oscar Wild?

In the final analysis, you are too easy and I debase myself every time I respond to you in kind. I am, nevertheless, an imperfect sinner and so I suspect I will be dragging your (let's not go there) ass through the streets one or more times in the future.

Retreat Roxxy for you are too inviting a target.
0 Replies
 
Roxxxanne
 
  1  
Fri 4 Apr, 2008 11:33 pm
A little something to warm up Finn's lonely world:


http://i213.photobucket.com/albums/cc302/Constantly_Constance/boobs.jpg


I only seem inviting. LOL
0 Replies
 
okie
 
  1  
Fri 4 Apr, 2008 11:35 pm
You are sickening.
0 Replies
 
Roxxxanne
 
  1  
Fri 4 Apr, 2008 11:39 pm
Late at night when your sleeping
The real creeps come out creeping along.
What's the matter, your Craig's List "date" didn't show?
0 Replies
 
real life
 
  1  
Fri 4 Apr, 2008 11:52 pm
Roxxxanne wrote:

Who said that Obama or myself didn't understand what McCain said.It is very clear that he would be content to stay in Iraq for a hundred years. The problem is that neither you nor McCain understand why that would be a problem.


We have been in Japan for over 60 years.

When do you think we should have left?

Give a date please.

-----------

We have been in Germany for over 60 years.

When do you think we should have left?

Give a date please.

-----------

We have been in Korea for over 50 years.

When do you think we should have left?

Give a date please.
0 Replies
 
Diest TKO
 
  1  
Sat 5 Apr, 2008 12:31 am
RL - Are you kidding me!?

Sure we are still in those countries... but we're running the show. We aren't policing the streets.

No.

Those countries stand on their own feet.
K
O
0 Replies
 
OCCOM BILL
 
  1  
Sat 5 Apr, 2008 01:37 am
That was McCain's point... which was easily understood by intelligent beings. Why strike such an easy target with such nonsense?
0 Replies
 
old europe
 
  1  
Sat 5 Apr, 2008 02:50 am
real life wrote:
We have been in Japan for over 60 years.

When do you think we should have left?

Give a date please.

-----------

We have been in Germany for over 60 years.

When do you think we should have left?

Give a date please.

-----------

We have been in Korea for over 50 years.

When do you think we should have left?

Give a date please.



Well, notify us once the situation in "post-war" Iraq is even remotely comparable to post-WWII Germany or Japan, or to South Korea after the war.

(What? Only 468 US soldiers died since the surge is in full effect? Ah. Maybe we're almost there, then....)
0 Replies
 
maporsche
 
  1  
Sat 5 Apr, 2008 07:11 am
OCCOM BILL wrote:
That was McCain's point... which was easily understood by intelligent beings. Why strike such an easy target with such nonsense?


Of course it was McCain's point. Good post O'Bill, you're proving that you don't see EVERYTHING through liberal colored glasses.
0 Replies
 
 

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