Ticomaya
 
  1  
Wed 2 Apr, 2008 06:02 pm
Roxxxanne wrote:
LOL if you are a lawyer, it is a wonder you haven't been disbarred for malpractice. You said that the quote was from [NBC news There is a world of difference between NBC news and an opnion columnist for MSNBC. Even you should understand that news is different from opinion. Really, I know why you spend so much time wiling away the day here as you obviously don't have any work.

If Keith Olbermann says BOR is an idiot tonight. I can't come on here tomorrow and claim that "NBC news said that Bill O'Reilly is an idiot."

Well, I could but I would be wrong just as you are wrong. But you are either to stupid or too bullheaded and blind to see it.


That's the distinction you were parsing?

Never mind that you blustered into this thread, loudly exclaiming that, "Anyone with a brain would understand that soz meant "projected" to be allocated."

To which I replied: "Anyone with a brain would know I was quoting NBC and not soz." The obvious point being that soz didn't mean anything of the sort.

And you proceeded to shout from the rooftops that "Tico was wrong," and "misogynist Tico this," and "blowhard Tico that" ... begging anyone to see that Tico had made a mistake.

And what is this mistake you were so desperate to trumpet?

That I said soz was quoting NBC when in fact she was quoting "NBC's Domenico Montanaro," a political researcher who works for NBC news. He is not an opinion columnist -- where the hell did you get that?

You're an idiot.
0 Replies
 
Butrflynet
 
  1  
Wed 2 Apr, 2008 06:15 pm
Obama Picks Up Oregon Endorsements

Quote:
PORTLAND - A group of Oregon politicians stood on the capitol steps in Salem Wednesday morning to endorse their candidate for president.

The group of legislators and elected officials gave their endorsement for the senator they want to see in the White House and it was an all-Obama crowd.

Five state senators and 19 state representatives, along with the state superintendent of schools and state treasurer pledged their votes to Barack Obama.

Independent senator Avel Gordly announced she would change her party affiliation and become a registered democrat after meeting Obama at a campaign rally.

"He said to me, I need the help of independent like yourself, and I told him then, he could count on my support. And, let me tell you why: Barack Obama is a unifier," Gordly said.

Representative Mary Nolan told the group she wants her daughter to be able to have a woman as president, but does not believe that Hillary Clinton is the candidate.

Nolan repeated what many others agreed, Obama's message of change is one, they believe, is worth sharing.

None of the legislators are superdelegates for Oregon, but still hope their endorsement encourages others to support their candidate.
0 Replies
 
Butrflynet
 
  1  
Wed 2 Apr, 2008 06:16 pm
Public Policy Polling: Obama OverTakes Clinton In PA

Public Policy Polling: Obama Continues to Hold Large Lead In NC

Politico: Hispanics More Likely To Be Color-Blind in General Election
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Wed 2 Apr, 2008 06:32 pm
Right. OK. So.

One of the things I have fretted about ad nauseam is that I perceive Obama's whole core message to be too postmaterialist. His focus on thinks like post-partisan and racial reconciliation, a change in the "tone" of politics, on political reform and such non-bread and butter issues, I always thought, was a flaw.

Sure, it was perfectly in tune with the hopes, dreams and aspirations of liberal college graduates who have accordingly flocked to him in wild enthusiasm from the start - the kind of people who of course are all for narrowing the income gap and doing something about poverty, but for whom that's an abstract issue, as they themselves can comfortably enjoy or at least dream of a pleasant enough middle class life.

But it was a focus whose main weakness was its narrow reach to only those who do want to dream of change - rather than those who fear it, and for good reason. That part, I always thought, Hillary got right. Not just is she a passionate wonk on bread-and-butter issues, but she knows that most people in the bottom half or third of society justifiably just want some protection against the increasingly wily vagaries of the global economy, unfettered after the decades of liberalisation, deregularisation and globalisation. Forget yearning for a more ethical brand of politics; can you help us weather the looming economic storms?

From Obama's incomplete health insurance plan to all his talk of reaching across the aisle or even his greater willingness to try experimental reform in education (not a bad idea, but a tricky one that could easily be exploited by the anti-government folk), that's something thats worried me, and the reason why I'd much rather have had Edwards. Well, Ive said all that a dozen times.

Anyway, touring Pennsylvania, Obama seems to either have gotten the message (in a way that he failed to credibly do in Ohio), or at least have adopted more of it. Maybe just for now, but hopefully the intensity of this need will sink in for good. I wanted to quote a NYT article about that, but foremost, I wanted to lift a paragraph from it that made the underlying point, briefly but in a way I havent seen elsewhere:

Quote:
Voters here, as in neighboring Ohio, where Mr. Obama lost the white and aging blue-collar vote, tend to elect politicians whose language rarely soars and whose policy prescriptions come studded with detail.

"The problem with talking about hope all the time is that these are not hopeful lands; Obama is talking change to people who equate change with life getting worse," said Hank Sheinkopf, a Democratic Party consultant who has studied the political culture of these working-class states [..].


OK, so anyway, here's some excerpts overall from the article - it's a good one.

0 Replies
 
Butrflynet
 
  1  
Wed 2 Apr, 2008 06:56 pm
We've had almost a year of this plain talk from Obama in town hall meetings in this same style and substance, but no one was paying much attention. It is good to see that people are starting to listen.

The question is, are they listening to what he says because he has caught their attention with his ideas and philosophy or are they listening for "gotchas" now that the nominating convention is getting closer?
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Wed 2 Apr, 2008 07:04 pm
Prolly some of both.
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Wed 2 Apr, 2008 07:13 pm
Butrflynet wrote:
We've had almost a year of this plain talk from Obama in town hall meetings in this same style and substance, but no one was paying much attention. It is good to see that people are starting to listen.

Hmm... we have a different interpretation. When I read that article above, for example, I still see a candidate who's only just halfway there. (And I realise of course that that's also how the report puts it; but then I chose this report because it closely matches my own impression.)

I'm glad he's making an effort, though, and changing the main focus of his campaign thematically too. Because for sure, he's not necessarily saying anything entirely new; but there is a distinct shift in where the main focus and priority lies, in comparison to his speeches and debate performances in December through at least early February. It's not enough to my taste, but then I'm not going to get my Progressive firebrand (and he might not be electable in America anyway).
0 Replies
 
Roxxxanne
 
  1  
Wed 2 Apr, 2008 07:14 pm
Ticomaya wrote:
Roxxxanne wrote:
LOL if you are a lawyer, it is a wonder you haven't been disbarred for malpractice. You said that the quote was from [NBC news There is a world of difference between NBC news and an opnion columnist for MSNBC. Even you should understand that news is different from opinion. Really, I know why you spend so much time wiling away the day here as you obviously don't have any work.

If Keith Olbermann says BOR is an idiot tonight. I can't come on here tomorrow and claim that "NBC news said that Bill O'Reilly is an idiot."

Well, I could but I would be wrong just as you are wrong. But you are either to stupid or too bullheaded and blind to see it.


That's the distinction you were parsing?

Never mind that you blustered into this threaoudly exclaiming that, "Anyone with a brain would understand that soz meant "projected" to be allocated."

To which I replied: "Anyone with a brain would know I was quoting NBC and not soz." The obvious point being that soz didn't mean anything of the sort.

And you proceeded to shout from the rooftops that "Tico was wrong," and "misogynist Tico this," and "blowhard Tico that" ... begging anyone to see that Tico had made a mistake.

And what is this mistake you were so desperate to trumpet?

That I said soz was quoting NBC when in fact she was quoting "NBC's Domenico Montanaro," a political researcher who works for NBC news. He is not an opinion columnist -- where the hell did you get that?

You're an idiot.


LOL who is the idiot? You still can't see that a columnist for MSNBC is not the same as "NBC news." Regardless of the degree of the error, YOU MADE A MISTAKE! (And irrespective of that, you have proved yourself a blowhard and a misogynist) Why can't you just admit you erred? I ahve admitted erring several times on this forum. Have you?

And how come you have so much time to engage in mindless stuff like this? I know a lot of attorneys and not one of them would waste their time tryign to prove themselves right on an internet forum ESPECIALLY WHEN THEY ARE WRONG. OTOH, it can understand the need to lessen the anguish of constantly being punked by judges and lawyers on the winning side.
0 Replies
 
Roxxxanne
 
  1  
Wed 2 Apr, 2008 07:16 pm
Butrflynet wrote:
We've had almost a year of this plain talk from Obama in town hall meetings in this same style and substance, but no one was paying much attention. It is good to see that people are starting to listen.

The question is, are they listening to what he says because he has caught their attention with his ideas and philosophy or are they listening for "gotchas" now that the nominating convention is getting closer?



Relax. Barring something disastrous, Obama will be taking the oath of office come January.
0 Replies
 
FreeDuck
 
  1  
Wed 2 Apr, 2008 07:19 pm
Butrflynet wrote:
We've had almost a year of this plain talk from Obama in town hall meetings in this same style and substance, but no one was paying much attention. It is good to see that people are starting to listen.

The question is, are they listening to what he says because he has caught their attention with his ideas and philosophy or are they listening for "gotchas" now that the nominating convention is getting closer?


I think, and I read that Obama himself said something like this, that he got to do a lot of this kind of thing in Iowa because of the amount of time he had, but that he couldn't do it in many of the subsequent primaries because of distance and time restraints. But this is what he's good at and he seems happy to be able to be back to it. I'll try the quote from him.
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Wed 2 Apr, 2008 07:23 pm
nimh wrote:
but then I'm not going to get my Progressive firebrand (and he might not be electable in America anyway).

Although - however ridiculed it was by the media elites - Al Gore's "People vs the Powerful" campaigning was actually very successful. It helped him close what at one point had become a big gap in popular preference in the polls.

Anyway, more on the nature of Obama's trek through Pennsylvania - interesting sidenotes on both the strategy and the tone of it:

Quote:
Obama dons a blue collar

Baltimore Sun

<snipped>

Obama [..] blames his defeat in Ohio, at least in part, on a lack of time to introduce himself to voters, an excuse he won't be able to use in Pennsylvania [..]. To promote his regular-guy themes, Obama is midway through a six-day bus tour that is taking him from one end of the commonwealth to the other, his longest campaign swing in a single state this year.

Rolling across the steep hills and narrow valleys of the western Pennsylvania countryside, his bus does not advertise its presence. There is not so much as an Obama bumper sticker, much less a campaign banner, on the outside of the rented luxury liner [..].

The unmarked bus and somewhat stealthy nature of his campaign swing - many stops aren't announced in advance - also reflect the highly nuanced Obama effort in this state. He is trying to lay the groundwork for a Pennsylvania comeback, while keeping expectations in check, something his campaign has been less effective in doing than Clinton's. [..]

There will be fewer big rallies and more dialogue with voters at campaign events, he said, though yesterday Obama spoke to more than 10,000 people at Penn State University, his first mass event in the state.

Already, on his "road to change" tour, he's dropped into sports bars [..] and mingled with steelworkers at plants outside Pittsburgh and in Johnstown. He's also made himself available for interviews with many, if not most, of the state's local TV and radio stations and daily papers, while spending millions more than Clinton on an intensive ad campaign.

Interviews with voters illustrate both the progress he's making and the challenge he faces against Clinton [..]. Obama supporter Frank Kovach, 64, of Vinco, a retired union electrician, likes Clinton but thinks "she's beholden to the lobbyists." He gave the first campaign contribution of his life to Obama and likes "the idea that it's not big corporations that support him. It's ordinary people."

But Andy Peretin, 65, a retired steelworker from Johnstown, said he's leaning toward Clinton, along with "most people my age," because of her experience in Washington. "She can probably get more things done." [..] David Swain, 58, who works part-time for the county, said he'd like to see an African-American president but favors Clinton because of her health care expertise. [..]

Obama's Pennsylvania strategy could generate a primary election surprise - not a victory, according to politicians and analysts in the state, but a closer finish than the polls are showing now. [..] It seems hard to believe that he can win this state, but he might be able to get it into single digits," he added, which could be interpreted as a victory.
0 Replies
 
Roxxxanne
 
  1  
Wed 2 Apr, 2008 07:27 pm
Every sound bite coming out of Hardball is impressive, really impressive. And this was Hardball. Hillary won't even face Larry King's softballs.

This sounds like I am gushing but this guy makes the Clintons look like pikers as politicians. Hillary even had the primary season stacked in her favor. And he still BEAT them.

I mean. He f***ing beat the Clintons!

And there are those who think a doddering mental defective with the baggage of the Bush administration has a chance against him?
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Wed 2 Apr, 2008 07:30 pm
Also from the above article - and I'm just going to drop this in here - this quote:

Quote:
Ron Burkett, 45, of Quecreek, said he changed his registration from Republican to Democrat so he could vote for Obama in the primary. But he says that racial prejudice will hurt Obama's chances. "People say they don't know a lot about Barack Obama," he said. "That's because they're afraid to say they won't vote for a black man."


Something to keep in mind. NOT that every single person who says he cant vote for Obama because he feels he doesnt know enough about him (not enough of a record, etc) must be a racist.

But yeah, there are those who wont vote for Obama because he's black, and they're not going to openly say it's because he's black. So it seems fair enough to predict that there will be a little more of that kinda vague, seemingly hard to pin down reluctance than in other races - you know, the kind that doesnt ever seem to get specific or concrete and that no debunking of doubts or new answers to questions seems to have any effect on.
0 Replies
 
snood
 
  1  
Wed 2 Apr, 2008 07:37 pm
uh, yup.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Wed 2 Apr, 2008 07:38 pm
nimh, That's to be expected in this day and age in the USA, but I'm encouraged by the younger generation - especially college students - who will vote for the candidate based on anything other than race.

I'm also encouraged, because of the advances we have made in race relations during my generation on this planet. To think we suffered discrimination before, during, and after WWII, but we now have integrated almost 100 percent including family members. Something I've never dreamed would ever happen while I was a very young man.
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Wed 2 Apr, 2008 07:57 pm
More interesting info still about Obama's MO in Pennsylvania.

Does anybody remember that anti-Obama talking point that he wouldnt take any questions? That was never true -- but it's true that Obama's "tweaked" his campaign somewhat now to make it even less true:

Quote:
Obama's uphill climb in Pennsylvania

PENNSYLVANIA | Uses grass-roots campaigning as underdog


Chicago Sun-Times
March 31, 2008

In Pennsylvania, where Sen. Barack Obama is still the underdog, smaller crowds are supposed to be better. [..] During his bus tour, Obama has concentrated on the grits and gravy of politicking -- personal contact.

Before rolling out of Pittsburgh, Obama visited with workers outside a U.S. Steel plant. In Johnstown, he toured a wire factory. In Altoona, he ate hot dogs at a local restaurant and went bowling. And at Penn State in University Park, he toured the agricultural facilities [..].

Obama told reporters during a press briefing that the personal interaction represented a tweak of his campaign strategy. "We were having these huge rallies, and it's just hard to get questions and have a lot of interaction," Obama told reporters after the Johnstown rally where about 1,200 people showed up, a small crowd compared with some of his other rallies.

"We're having an event a week, and so you couldn't really take time for the retail politics that I enjoy and think helps people know me better," he said. "We're gonna be doing more town hall meetings, fewer rallies." [..]

At the Penn State rally, an estimated 22,000 people showed up [..]. A few hours later, Obama spoke before a standing-room-only crowd in the Forum Auditorium in the State Capitol Complex in Harrisburg, where he took questions.

The crowd was so enthusiastic, Obama had to ask them to settle down. Among the questions posed were concerns about Medicaid fraud, the lack of care for the mentally ill, education and universal health care. [..]


I read another, much more detailed piece somewhere too, describing how Obama kept his speech to just 20 mins, and then exhaustively answered every question that came up for something like double that time. Signs and placards were kindly encouraged to be left out, and chants were similarly quietly discouraged; instead, just questions and answers, questions and questions and answers. Cant find it back tho.
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Wed 2 Apr, 2008 08:11 pm
And to wrap up the Pennsylvania tour d'horizon ( :wink: ):

  • It's two weeks old now, but someone at OpenLeft had an interesting overview of how the local media in the state are covering the race. I think most of us political junkies tend to focus on the national media with all their pundits and horse race coverage, but most people get their news from the local daily, so in reality its at least as important what they focus on, whereas you never hear much about that.

    Here it is: Obama-Clinton in PA: How is Local Media Covering It?

    Pretty rudimentary, but worth a glance over.

  • And talking of local media, there's this encouraging news of how Obama is still winning the fundraising race and is winning it thanks to small, grassroots donors -- even in Hillary's bulwark of Western Pennsylvania:

    [quote]Obama first in W.Pa. money, thanks to small donors

    Pittsburgh Tribune-Review
    March 31, 2008

    Small donors have propelled Sen. Barack Obama into first place in the race for money in Western Pennsylvania.

    The Illinois senator has more donors than rival Sen. Hillary Clinton and Republican Sen. John McCain combined, according to the Federal Election Commission. They have given more than $411,000 to Obama's campaign, compared with $249,000 to Clinton and $233,000 to McCain, as of Feb. 29. Campaign finance reports for this month are due April 20, two days before the primary.

    Obama's list of 672 donors in Beaver, Butler, Armstrong, Allegheny, Westmoreland, Washington, Green and Fayette counties includes people from flight attendants to fund managers and pastors to professors.

    Former Pirates owner Kevin McClatchy donated the legal maximum of $2,300 to Obama's campaign. Penguins board Chairman Mario Lemieux gave an identical amount to Clinton, who has benefited from the longtime support of the Penguins' billionaire co-owner Ron Burkle.

    Obama maintains a money-raising edge despite numerous polls showing Clinton leading him in popularity among Pennsylvania Democrats by double-digits. Western Pennsylvania, with its older, working class population, mirrors the areas that have voted for Clinton in past primaries, and the region is expected to do the same April 22.

    Obama's biggest asset might be that his campaign has the highest percentage of donors who haven't yet reached the $2,300 limit for federal campaign donations, said Moe Coleman, director emeritus of the University Pittsburgh Institute of Politics.

    "The money situation has shifted from large donors at the top to large numbers of smaller donors at the bottom," Coleman said. "The Obama campaign seems to have an organization that gets those small donors effectively."

    Most of Obama's donations came during January and February, when he broke national records for raising money. He's raised more than $227,000 in Western Pennsylvania in the first two months of 2008. That more than doubled Clinton's $110,000. [..][/quote]

Also in that latter article though, a rare sighting of that less common, but certainly not non-existent species: Republicans or Independents who are sincerely drawn to the Dem race to support Hillary:

Quote:
Hillary Clinton continues to enjoy strong support among people in the region, including those who look back on the Clinton years fondly. Cesar Prado, a manager at Century III Chevrolet in West Mifflin, said Hillary Clinton was a trusted adviser to her husband. Prado, who switched his registration from Republican to Democrat so he could vote for Clinton, said she's best equipped to get the economy back on track.

"If you spend eight years around Alan Greenspan, you're going to learn something," Prado said, referring to the former Federal Reserve chairman who served during the longest period of sustained economic growth in U.S. history during Clinton's administration. "If she doesn't get the nomination, I will change (my registration) back."

Something to keep in mind when tempted to reduce each and every Republican switcher to the Dem race voting for Hillary to "Limbaugh voters".
0 Replies
 
echi
 
  1  
Wed 2 Apr, 2008 08:40 pm
Quote:
Something to keep in mind. NOT that every single person who says he cant vote for Obama because he feels he doesnt know enough about him (not enough of a record, etc) must be a racist.

But [...]


But nothing. All I ever hear from Hillary fans is that Obama doesn't have enough of a track record. If I give them the benefit of the doubt then I can only conclude that they are misinformed, which gets harder to believe every day. I think they are either afraid of "change", as is likely the case for some older Hispanic voters, or they are simple racists, like many lower income white people, or (and this is the one that pisses me off the most) they are sexist and merely want to elect our first female president.

And I also think Hillary's strategists are aware of all of this and are tailoring her message to try to resonate with these prejudices. It's disgusting.

I know we're supposed to say that we'll vote for the Democratic nominee, no matter... but I wouldn't piss on that bitch if she was on fire.





(sorry y'all had to read that...I feel better now)
0 Replies
 
echi
 
  1  
Wed 2 Apr, 2008 08:49 pm
And another thing...

I've been hearing complaints that if it were the other way around -- if Hillary was ahead and people were calling for Barack to drop out -- that there would be charges of racism. But this is another example of their dishonest, win at any cost tactics. Hilliary should drop out because she has run an unbelievably negative, nasty campaign against a genuinely good candidate (no one can deny that, and no one can make the same charge against Obama). It's unforgivable, and it should stop.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Wed 2 Apr, 2008 08:57 pm
echi wrote:
And another thing...

I've been hearing complaints that if it were the other way around -- if Hillary was ahead and people were calling for Barack to drop out -- that there would be charges of racism. But this is another example of their dishonest, win at any cost tactics. Hilliary should drop out because she has run an unbelievably negative, nasty campaign against a genuinely good candidate (no one can deny that, and no one can make the same charge against Obama). It's unforgivable, and it should stop.


I would never have considered Hillary no matter under what circumstances; her campaign has been negative against her own party member, and her "35 years of experience" means absolutely nothing. Many have 50 years of experience, and they've learned nothing.
0 Replies
 
 

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