Obama '08?

Sorry to interrupt, but I've just bumped into a very sad headline...

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Inventor of Egg McMuffin Dies at 89

A moment of silence, please.

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Ticomaya:

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she calls me a "known bigot" because of the color of my skin.

that ain't why

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Quote:

The Civil Rights battles have been fought and won and it is now time for all people of all races to take advantage of the freedoms and opportunities available to all.

Agreed; which is what Obama has been saying.

But to try and say it was a good thing we did in putting people in chains and then enslaving them because they had it just as bad or worse over there is ridiculous and no credible person could say it without being dishonest about the history of that terrible time in America's history.

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revel wrote:

Quote:
The Civil Rights battles have been fought and won and it is now time for all people of all races to take advantage of the freedoms and opportunities available to all.

Agreed; which is what Obama has been saying.

But to try and say it was a good thing we did in putting people in chains and then enslaving them because they had it just as bad or worse over there is ridiculous and no credible person could say it without being dishonest about the history of that terrible time in America's history.

Revel, NOBODY has said it was a good thing to put people in chains or enslave them. Focus please. Sowell, Williams et al have ALL said there is no way to justify that no matter from what perspective. They have NOT justified it. They have NOT justified any form of slavery, discrimination, segregation.

All they are saying is that they personally have benefitted enormously from the freedoms afforded them through the civil rights initiatives that have been fought and won at high cost in this country and they are no longer required to suffer under any form of discrimination or segregation even though they all grew up in segregated societies.

They ARE saying that they count themselves blessed to be citizens of the USA and are far better off because they were born here instead of as poor, uneducated people under some totalitarian warlord's thumb in Africa. They both know that had their ancesters not been slaves, they personally would likely not have been born here as free men with unlimited opportunities.

They are saying that they are grateful for the opportunities their country now provides them, and that they personally are owed nothing by you or anybody else. They can take it from here.

Anybody can harbor resentments and see themselves as victims of their past. And anybody can look forward and take advantage of the opportunities available to them.

Sowell, Williams and others who have been labeled "Uncle Toms" and worse on this thread are strong supporters of the latter option.

And that is why they see the rhetoric of a Jeremiah Wright as so destructive and counter productive to that.

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Foxy wrote: All they are saying is that they personally have benefitted enormously from the freedoms afforded them through the civil rights initiatives that have been fought and won at high cost in this country and they are no longer required to suffer under any form of discrimination or segregation even though they all grew up in segregated societies.

What a bunch of bull crap!

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Foxfyre wrote:

revel wrote:
Quote:
The Civil Rights battles have been fought and won and it is now time for all people of all races to take advantage of the freedoms and opportunities available to all.

Agreed; which is what Obama has been saying.

But to try and say it was a good thing we did in putting people in chains and then enslaving them because they had it just as bad or worse over there is ridiculous and no credible person could say it without being dishonest about the history of that terrible time in America's history.

Revel, NOBODY has said it was a good thing to put people in chains or enslave them. Focus please. Sowell, Williams et al have ALL said there is no way to justify that no matter from what perspective. They have NOT justified it. They have NOT justified any form of slavery, discrimination, segregation.

All they are saying is that they personally have benefitted enormously from the freedoms afforded them through the civil rights initiatives that have been fought and won at high cost in this country and they are no longer required to suffer under any form of discrimination or segregation even though they all grew up in segregated societies.

They ARE saying that they count themselves blessed to be citizens of the USA and are far better off because they were born here instead of as poor, uneducated people under some totalitarian warlord's thumb in Africa. They both know that had their ancesters not been slaves, they personally would likely not have been born here as free men with unlimited opportunities.

They are saying that they are grateful for the opportunities their country now provides them, and that they personally are owed nothing by you or anybody else. They can take it from here.

Anybody can harbor resentments and see themselves as victims of their past. And anybody can look forward and take advantage of the opportunities available to them.

Sowell, Williams and others who have been labeled "Uncle Toms" and worse on this thread are strong supporters of the latter option.

And that is why they see the rhetoric of a Jeremiah Wright as so destructive and counter productive to that.

Quote:

But he fully acknowledges that he personally has benefitted enormously because somebody dragged his ancesters over here as slaves. If they had not he would most likely be an relatively uneducated, impoverished nobody living in constant terror under threat by some savage warlord.

see above

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revel wrote:

Quote:
The Civil Rights battles have been fought and won and it is now time for all people of all races to take advantage of the freedoms and opportunities available to all.

Agreed; which is what Obama has been saying.

But to try and say it was a good thing we did in putting people in chains and then enslaving them because they had it just as bad or worse over there is ridiculous and no credible person could say it without being dishonest about the history of that terrible time in America's history.

You still don't get it. Nobody said it was a good thing to put people in chains and enslave them.

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revel wrote:

Foxfyre wrote:
revel wrote:
Quote:
The Civil Rights battles have been fought and won and it is now time for all people of all races to take advantage of the freedoms and opportunities available to all.

Agreed; which is what Obama has been saying.

But to try and say it was a good thing we did in putting people in chains and then enslaving them because they had it just as bad or worse over there is ridiculous and no credible person could say it without being dishonest about the history of that terrible time in America's history.

Revel, NOBODY has said it was a good thing to put people in chains or enslave them. Focus please. Sowell, Williams et al have ALL said there is no way to justify that no matter from what perspective. They have NOT justified it. They have NOT justified any form of slavery, discrimination, segregation.

All they are saying is that they personally have benefitted enormously from the freedoms afforded them through the civil rights initiatives that have been fought and won at high cost in this country and they are no longer required to suffer under any form of discrimination or segregation even though they all grew up in segregated societies.

They ARE saying that they count themselves blessed to be citizens of the USA and are far better off because they were born here instead of as poor, uneducated people under some totalitarian warlord's thumb in Africa. They both know that had their ancesters not been slaves, they personally would likely not have been born here as free men with unlimited opportunities.

They are saying that they are grateful for the opportunities their country now provides them, and that they personally are owed nothing by you or anybody else. They can take it from here.

Anybody can harbor resentments and see themselves as victims of their past. And anybody can look forward and take advantage of the opportunities available to them.

Sowell, Williams and others who have been labeled "Uncle Toms" and worse on this thread are strong supporters of the latter option.

And that is why they see the rhetoric of a Jeremiah Wright as so destructive and counter productive to that.

Quote:

But he fully acknowledges that he personally has benefitted enormously because somebody dragged his ancesters over here as slaves. If they had not he would most likely be an relatively uneducated, impoverished nobody living in constant terror under threat by some savage warlord.

see above

Yes. What problem do you have with that? Do you think he would be better off if he was an angry black man accusing every white person for every problem he has because his ancesters were slaves? Or is it more profitable (and accurate) to acknowledge that he is blessed to be an American and has been able to prosper and achieve goals and dreams that would have been impossible to him as a poor black person in Africa?

It's like saying that my parents took me away from my beloved childhood home and lifelong beloved friends and moved me to a strange place where I didn't know anybody and felt unwanted and unloved by just about everybody. But in that new place I was able to do X which opened up a whole new world of opportunity to me that I would never have had in the old place.

One can condemn the process quite thoroughly while still acknowledging one's personal benefit that resulted from it. That is in no way saying the the end justifies the means. It only acknowledges something good that is good.

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Foxy wrote: Yes. What problem do you have with that? Do you think he would be better off if he was an angry black man accusing every white person for every problem he has because his ancesters were slaves?

.
.Another bull crap.

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snood wrote:

Ticomaya:

Quote:
she calls me a "known bigot" because of the color of my skin.

that ain't why

That's the only reason she's given, as far as I know. Have you read her mind, or just been exchanging PMs with her?

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revel wrote:

okie wrote:
Thomas Sowell is one of my favorite columnists, a very bright man, a great man, and one who has the ability to analyze what may appear to be complex problems and break them down to explain them in very simple terms. Evidently, folks like Roxxi can't even understand them in simple terms.

Sowell is not a racist, no way, and that is why he demands and deserves respect. If he were to run for office, such as Congress, I would vote for him no question. One of his strong areas is the ability to understand the common sense basics of the economy and free enterprise, and that would put him head and shoulders above most of today's Democratic congressmen.

I am not saying he is a racist; I said he was a conservative with views I would call a bit radical. Like answering the slave reparation question with "Their descendants would have been worse off today if born in Africa instead of America."

Not to you, but the last 5 or 6 posts are so off topic. As far as slave reparations, my ancestors would see no problem with it, since the japanese and some Jews, not all, have received some reparations for all of the treasures STOLEN, from them by the Nazis and some American GI's, tried and jailed for it, when caught, after WWII!

These reparations were granted for the last 60 years, so what about the 250 years, my people were held as slaves? Nothing for building Washington DC? Nothing for rebuilding New Orleans after the great fire in the 1700's , for the rape of my female ancestors, that make me almost as white looking, as anyone calling themselves white? Maybe I should have passed, but self define myself as Black, so where's my money?

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Jesus Christ you people are all so far up your high horses, battling it out for the moral high ground it's hilarious.... I'm having a wonderful time...

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Bi-Polar Bear wrote:

Jesus Christ you people are all so far up your high horses, battling it out for the moral high ground it's hilarious.... I'm having a wonderful time...

Total agreement.

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Foxfyre wrote:

revel wrote:
Quote:
The Civil Rights battles have been fought and won and it is now time for all people of all races to take advantage of the freedoms and opportunities available to all.

Agreed; which is what Obama has been saying.

But to try and say it was a good thing we did in putting people in chains and then enslaving them because they had it just as bad or worse over there is ridiculous and no credible person could say it without being dishonest about the history of that terrible time in America's history.

Revel, NOBODY has said it was a good thing to put people in chains or enslave them. Focus please. Sowell, Williams et al have ALL said there is no way to justify that no matter from what perspective. They have NOT justified it. They have NOT justified any form of slavery, discrimination, segregation.

All they are saying is that they personally have benefitted enormously from the freedoms afforded them through the civil rights initiatives that have been fought and won at high cost in this country and they are no longer required to suffer under any form of discrimination or segregation even though they all grew up in segregated societies.

They ARE saying that they count themselves blessed to be citizens of the USA and are far better off because they were born here instead of as poor, uneducated people under some totalitarian warlord's thumb in Africa. They both know that had their ancesters not been slaves, they personally would likely not have been born here as free men with unlimited opportunities.

They are saying that they are grateful for the opportunities their country now provides them, and that they personally are owed nothing by you or anybody else. They can take it from here.

Anybody can harbor resentments and see themselves as victims of their past. And anybody can look forward and take advantage of the opportunities available to them.

Sowell, Williams and others who have been labeled "Uncle Toms" and worse on this thread are strong supporters of the latter option.

And that is why they see the rhetoric of a Jeremiah Wright as so destructive and counter productive to that.

Who do you personally know, who has benefited? And if they did, why does the white media act like they GAVE something to someone Black when they are good at what they do, in spite of the stereotypes, heaped on Blacks, in general. Why? Because they too, are biased and racist! Hell, damned if we do and sure damned if we don't! See Tiger Woods!

You see Jeremiah Wright the way you WANT to see him. If I could, I'd join his church, because he's speaking the truth about the way Blacks ARE treated, WERE treated and now condemned for it!

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Chauvinism seems almost as characteristic of humans as is language, tools and war. People almost instinctively hold a preference for their own, over the "other". At the dawn of civilization chauvinism may have served a purpose as tribes engaged in a brutal competition for survival. Almost without exception, every tribe describes itself as "The People" and the "others" are something less. The People, know and properly practice the necessary taboos to insure divine support and stave off the magical hexes of the enemy and for hunter-gatherers or primitive farmers, the "enemy" was a constant threat. Generation after generation, chauvinism was so prevalent that virtually no one even questioned whether it was a valid proposition. That which was forbidden to do to one's own, The People, was often regarded as the highest virtue when done to the "others".

That simple tools and machinery powered by animal muscles, slavery was regarded as the smart alternative to simply wiping out the "others" at every opportunity. Slavery was almost universally practiced everywhere that resources weren't super-abundant. Slavery persisted without being regarded as immoral until the 19th century C.E., and still exists today in parts of Africa and southern Asia. We tend to forget that slavery only became immoral as the Industrial Revolution and the Enlightenment altered Western values.

However, we no longer live in that world where chauvinism had a practical role. The United States is founded upon the idea of pluralism, and no group is to be considered superior to the "others". It is not politically correct in the 21st century United States for Men to be superior to Women, and all cultural/ethnic/"racial" groups are expected to be equal and without antagonism for one another. There has been a long and bitter struggle for political equality in this country. Many have shed blood and been imprisoned in pursuit of that goal, and great strides toward political and social equality have been made since the middle of the 20th century.

Chauvinism hasn't gone extinct. Africa and Asia have made little progress in curbing prejudice and bigotry. Europe has come a long way, especially since the previously common anti-Semitism of that whole region reached its nadir in the death camps of WWII. I don't believe that any other nation has so diligently worked to erase the injustices associated with chauvinism, as has the United States. And, I believe those efforts have removed legal barriers, made the public expression of chauvinism taboo, and opened doors of opportunity that previously had been closed on the basis of mere prejudice. In a sincere effort to level the "playing field", we have enacted Affirmative Action programs that give special preference to virtually anyone who may have been victimized by past discrimination. Government is required to set aside a certain proportion of its largess for minority firms who would not otherwise qualify to bid for jobs. Universities enroll minorities with low grade-point averages, while excluding others with straight "A's". If any group doesn't have some proportionate representation by a people within one of the many "protected classes", they are at risk of being sued and made a mockery of. We, as a nation, have institutionalized prejudice as a means of opening doors of opportunity that were once closed.

Has chauvinism, within the United States, been reduced? No one can say for sure, because no one can read the secret hearts of men. People still seem to prefer associating with people pretty much like themselves. Devout Christians seldom hang out with dedicated atheists. A wealthy person of property isn't very likely to be found on the soup line. Laborers don't generally spend their evenings with bankers at the opera. When was the last time a Rap artist made a point of his/her association with the Salvation Army? Cops may deal with criminals' everyday, but they don't often have them home for dinner. Some ask whites, how many Black friends they have, but the question works both ways, how many times do Black people reach-out in friendship to strange Whites? These are, of course all stereotypes and that is what chauvinism fosters. In the United States, Whites, especially White men of property are THE stereotypical bad guys whose prejudices still lie at the heart of inequality, and; inequality is equated with evil even though it is the most natural state of nature.

Obama has been touted as the first post-racial candidate for the Presidency. He has campaigned on the notion that he can bring a shattered nation together in harmony. "Change" has been his mantra, though the sort of change he seems to represent is focusing the Federal Government almost exclusively on more entitlement programs and social experimentation. Both Democratic candidates decry the size of the National Debt and cite that as their reason to surrender to the supporters of Radical Islam by withdrawing U.S. forces back into CONUS. But neither, it seems have the slightest problem with adding to the National Debt for the pursuit of Utopia.

This business with Rev. Jeremiah Wright, is a "big deal". If nothing else it has made public the intense chauvinism, prejudices, bigotry and hatred that exist in at least some primarily Black Churches. The hostility and determination to strike out against main-stream American society of the Symbionese Liberation Army and Black Panthers lives on in the Black Theology Movement. In Rev. Wright's theology, our mind's eye returns to Black neighborhoods on fire. We are reminded of rioting mobs looting businesses because their owners "exploit" Blacks. We are told repeatedly that these attitudes are common in the Black community, and that justifies bigoted preachers. Injustices that occurred 150 years ago are still being cited as THE reason that young Black men drop out of school to become gang members who steal and kill other Blacks. Black predators steal and kill other Blacks far more commonly than White criminals, but we are told from the pulpit that the United States government is to blame. Whites who fought and bled and were jailed in Civil Rights Cause are called racists and are expected to compensate "victims" for injustices that occurred before they were even born.

We are told that Blacks can't be racists, or bigots and that there is no end, no expiation of guilt for White America. White America is collectively guilty for slavery, prejudice and chauvinism. Blacks are entitled to more than just equality, they must be compensated for past wrongs indefinitely. No criticism by Whites is acceptable, and will be denounced as racist. What we hear from the pastor of Obama's church of twenty years is that Blacks should hate the United States, that Whites are the source of every problem within the Black Community. The church preaches chauvinism. It teaches racial hatred. It encourages people to believe that there is a conspiracy and official policy of genocide by Whites against Blacks. From a Christian pulpit we are told that Jews and mainstream churches are all designed to reduce Blacks to slavery "White" Christianity is the "Opiate of the People"? What is taught from the pulpit in Obama's chosen church is racial division, prejudice and hatred.

But we're told, "its no big deal". We are told that Wright is right, and should be applauded for so courageously confronting the evil represented by the United States government.

What IS revealed is the very great likelihood that Obama's just another hypocrite. Obama's long and intimate relationship with Rev. Wright, and a church based on Black Theology, certainly suggests that his commitment to racial harmony and unity may not extend far beyond the Black community. Those who hate America, and the values enshrined in the Constitution, will have no problem continuing to support Mr. Obama. Young Idealists looking for a charismatic young Messianic figure will be blind to his clay feet. Will Obama become the Democratic standard-bearer? The most radical leftists in that Party seem quite happy with him. I'm less certain that the majority of Democratic voters and politicians are yet willing ask the American votes to elect this young man to the Presidency.

Chauvinism is alive everywhere in the world, and nowhere it seems is it more deeply rooted than in the hearts of Black America. What a shame. So many people of all backgrounds in this country dedicated their lives to blunt and "defang" prejudice, and now we are told that effort made so little headway. What a shame, what a shame.

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teenyboone wrote:

Who do you personally know, who has benefited? And if they did, why does the white media act like they GAVE something to someone Black when they are good at what they do, in spite of the stereotypes, heaped on Blacks, in general. Why? Because they too, are biased and racist! Hell, damned if we do and sure damned if we don't! See Tiger Woods!

I know this is asking a lot of you, but can you try to explain your reference to Tiger Woods?

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You see Jeremiah Wright the way you WANT to see him. If I could, I'd join his church, ...

Shocker.

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teenyboone wrote:

Foxfyre wrote:
revel wrote:
Quote:
The Civil Rights battles have been fought and won and it is now time for all people of all races to take advantage of the freedoms and opportunities available to all.

Agreed; which is what Obama has been saying.

But to try and say it was a good thing we did in putting people in chains and then enslaving them because they had it just as bad or worse over there is ridiculous and no credible person could say it without being dishonest about the history of that terrible time in America's history.

Revel, NOBODY has said it was a good thing to put people in chains or enslave them. Focus please. Sowell, Williams et al have ALL said there is no way to justify that no matter from what perspective. They have NOT justified it. They have NOT justified any form of slavery, discrimination, segregation.

All they are saying is that they personally have benefitted enormously from the freedoms afforded them through the civil rights initiatives that have been fought and won at high cost in this country and they are no longer required to suffer under any form of discrimination or segregation even though they all grew up in segregated societies.

They ARE saying that they count themselves blessed to be citizens of the USA and are far better off because they were born here instead of as poor, uneducated people under some totalitarian warlord's thumb in Africa. They both know that had their ancesters not been slaves, they personally would likely not have been born here as free men with unlimited opportunities.

They are saying that they are grateful for the opportunities their country now provides them, and that they personally are owed nothing by you or anybody else. They can take it from here.

Anybody can harbor resentments and see themselves as victims of their past. And anybody can look forward and take advantage of the opportunities available to them.

Sowell, Williams and others who have been labeled "Uncle Toms" and worse on this thread are strong supporters of the latter option.

And that is why they see the rhetoric of a Jeremiah Wright as so destructive and counter productive to that.

Who do you personally know, who has benefited? And if they did, why does the white media act like they GAVE something to someone Black when they are good at what they do, in spite of the stereotypes, heaped on Blacks, in general. Why? Because they too, are biased and racist! Hell, damned if we do and sure damned if we don't! See Tiger Woods!

You see Jeremiah Wright the way you WANT to see him. If I could, I'd join his church, because he's speaking the truth about the way Blacks ARE treated, WERE treated and now condemned for it!

I don't recall that I said Whites GAVE anything to Blacks. I always took the civil rights movement--I was privileged to be pretty heavily involved in that--was a cooperative effort with EVERYBODY working together to correct inequities in our society.

Who do I know who personally benefitted? I think all Americans have benefitted. Among blacks, all those who probably did or know they descended from slaves have benefitted who have stayed in school, gotten a education, learned a trade, have moved up the ladder of success in whatever trade they chose, who are buying their homes, and raising their families, and paying their taxes, who play golf on Sunday or bowl on Saturday nights or volunteer for Scout troops or join the rest of us in making idiots of ourselves at Little League games or cheer at the highschool football game, who fly their flags on the 4th of July and Flag Day and sing the National Anthem and "God Bless America" with gusto. And yes, some of these are folks who are my friends, neighbors, colleagues, associates, members of my church, or who I have met in varous endeavors throughout my life.

Given the anger and resentment toward white people or conservative or successful black people that you seem to harbor, I suppose you probably would join Jeremiah Wright's church. You would probably feel right at home there.

Those folks I described here, though, wouldn't.

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Deeper and Deeper
By JAMES TARANTO
March 28, 2008

"I can no more disown him than I can disown the black community," Barack Obama said last week about his "spiritual mentor," the Rev. Jeremiah "God Damn America" Wright. But now, CNN reports, Obama is changing his tune. Well, sort of:

In an interview scheduled to air Friday on ABC's "The View"--excerpts of which aired on CNN on Thursday night--Obama talks about Wright's reaction to the controversy.

"Had the reverend not retired and had he not acknowledged that what he had said had deeply offended people and were [sic] inappropriate and mischaracterized what I believe is the greatness of this country, for all its flaws, then I wouldn't have felt comfortable staying there at the church," the senator said.

Does this mean he would have left? Or does it mean he would have stayed but felt uncomfortable? And when did Wright apologize? Blogger Tom Maguire undertakes an extensive investigation, and the answer appears to be: Never. In fact, Obama came close to apologizing to Wright. CNN again:

Obama also said on the ABC talk show that he has spoken with Wright since the uproar over the pastor's comments.

"I think he's saddened by what's happened, and I told him I feel badly that he has been characterized just in this one way and people haven't seen the broader aspect of him," Obama said.

And if Obama wouldn't now feel "comfortable" belonging to Wright's church, how does he feel about Wright's successor, Otis Moss? Fox News reports that in his Easter Sunday sermon, Moss delivered quite a spirited defense of Wright:

"No one should start a ministry with lynching, no one should end their ministry with lynching," Moss said.

"The lynching was national news. The RNN, the Roman News Network, was reporting it and NPR, National Publican Radio had it on the radio. The Jerusalem Post and the Palestine Times all wanted exclusives, they searched out the young ministers, showed up unannounced at their houses, tried to talk with their families, called up their friends, wanted to get a quote on how do you feel about the lynching?" he continued.

The criticism surrounding Wright has not softened the services at Trinity United Church of Christ, where Obama has been a congregant for 20 years. Instead, Moss defiantly defended their method of worship, referencing rap lyrics to make his point.

"If I was Ice Cube I'd say it a little differently--'You picked the wrong folk to mess with,' " Moss said to an enthusiastic congregation, standing up during much of the sermon, titled "How to Handle a Public Lynching."

The ABC News report on Obama's "View" appearance quotes the senator as calling Wright a "brilliant man who was still stuck in a time wrap." Quips blogress Jennifer Rubin: "So brilliant, apparently, that he has uncovered the plot by white America to kill African Americans."

http://online.wsj.com/article/best_of_the_web_today.html

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Tennyboone,
I have watched this argument, and now I'm gonna chime in.

You need to get off of your "poor, pitiful me" attitude.

You are no more a victim of slavery then any other black person in this country is.
There is NOBODY alive in the US today that has suffered under slavery, nor is there anybody alive in the US today that ever had anything to do with the slave trade.

In the early 1800's, the US and the Royal navies both tried to intercept and stop ships carrying slaves, with varying degrees of success.

Nobody on here has claimed that slavery was a good thing, and nobody is stupid enough to believe that.
Yet you seem to continue to blame the white man for slavery, yet according to all records I have seen, it was other blacks that were actually capturing and selling slaves.

Was slavery wrong? YES IT WAS!!
Is the white man today to blame for it? NO!!!
You cannot honestly hold any person today responsible for the actions of people over 150 years ago.
To do so is both illogical and wrong.

Affirmative action and the civil rights movement have helped correct the wrongs, but it hasnt been a perfect or an easy solution.
If you continue to hold on to your anger over ancient history, you will never be able to see the good that has been done.
And if you refuse to see the good that AA and the civil rights movement have done, you will always be angry.
Dont you have better things to do then to stay mad all the time?

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Some people assume they understand social psychology, but are so ignorant, they make statements that are - well - ignorant.

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